T Nation

Another Example of Disrespect for Teachers


#1

This is a couple of months old, but I just came across it. I grew up on Long Island, and have been teaching in NYC for a while now. A constant complaint, and not just from educators, is the lack of a respect for any type of authority figures being instilled in this generation's youth. Of course how can the younger ones be expected to behave when they not only watch, but help as their parental role models walk into school and savagely beat their teachers?

The school in this particular story is a Middle School. I actually spent a considerable anmount of time "observing" in the district's High School when I was earning my Ed degree. It was certainly quite a different atmosphere than when I went to school (security guard posted in the class room each day).

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/teacher-choked-punched-kicked-irate-mom-cops-article-1.2188560

S


#2

Could you imagine what would happen if a man did that? $5000 bail is chump change, he’d have his left nut cut off thenhung from his right nostril and be sentenced to 20 years.

I really think this whole “everybody is equal” culture we are developing is responsible for this BS along with our “run and tell someone” mentality. Got problems at work, run to HR, got problems at school, run and tell a teacher, someone bothers you on the street, run and call 911, someone doesn’t make your super important coffee right at shitty dunkin donuts or whatever, go complain to the store manager.

You got muscles, must be doing steroids, good grades, probably cheated on the test, Bob got on the team and you did, the coach favors him, feeling a little sad, that is ok - stop working and take these anti depressants - don’t take time to solve the problem. The point is, nobody handles their own problems anymore, nobody takes responsibility or accountability for anything today.

And what drives me crazy is that it isn’t just in kids, it is in adults too! One thing that drives me fucking mad is when I see people complaining about shit they can do something about but wont. It is why this country is a disaster today. I cant blame them entirely though. Mediocrity is rewarded in our culture.


#3

And my bitching and moaning can be summed up in one word: laziness. We are a pathetically lazy culture.


#4

“We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.”


#5

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
This is a couple of months old, but I just came across it. I grew up on Long Island, and have been teaching in NYC for a while now. A constant complaint, and not just from educators, is the lack of a respect for any type of authority figures being instilled in this generation’s youth. Of course how can the younger ones be expected to behave when they not only watch, but help as their parental role models walk into school and savagely beat their teachers?

The school in this particular story is a Middle School. I actually spent a considerable anmount of time “observing” in the district’s High School when I was earning my Ed degree. It was certainly quite a different atmosphere than when I went to school (security guard posted in the class room each day).

S[/quote]

Any rational adult wouldn’t put their kids in public schools to begin with and do homeschooling instead. Unfortunately they are taxed to pay your salary, so they have no choice.

Considering the rate at which teachers rape and abuse children as well as forcing drugs on them(especially boys) to conform to their indoctrination, there is nothing to respect them for.

They are the state employees doing the most harm to society.


#6

[quote]TooHuman wrote:

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
This is a couple of months old, but I just came across it. I grew up on Long Island, and have been teaching in NYC for a while now. A constant complaint, and not just from educators, is the lack of a respect for any type of authority figures being instilled in this generation’s youth. Of course how can the younger ones be expected to behave when they not only watch, but help as their parental role models walk into school and savagely beat their teachers?

The school in this particular story is a Middle School. I actually spent a considerable anmount of time “observing” in the district’s High School when I was earning my Ed degree. It was certainly quite a different atmosphere than when I went to school (security guard posted in the class room each day).

S[/quote]

Any rational adult wouldn’t put their kids in public schools to begin with and do homeschooling instead. Unfortunately they are taxed to pay your salary, so they have no choice.

Considering the rate at which teachers rape and abuse children as well as forcing drugs on them(especially boys) to conform to their indoctrination, there is nothing to respect them for.

They are the state employees doing the most harm to society. [/quote]

I went to a public school and honestly I liked most of my teachers. Two knew I had problems at home even though I never told them, but they would let me hang out in their class after the day was done to talk about physics or math haha. There were a few bad ones, but I don’t think that isn’t common.


#7

[quote]Aero51 wrote:

[quote]TooHuman wrote:

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
This is a couple of months old, but I just came across it. I grew up on Long Island, and have been teaching in NYC for a while now. A constant complaint, and not just from educators, is the lack of a respect for any type of authority figures being instilled in this generation’s youth. Of course how can the younger ones be expected to behave when they not only watch, but help as their parental role models walk into school and savagely beat their teachers?

The school in this particular story is a Middle School. I actually spent a considerable anmount of time “observing” in the district’s High School when I was earning my Ed degree. It was certainly quite a different atmosphere than when I went to school (security guard posted in the class room each day).

S[/quote]

Any rational adult wouldn’t put their kids in public schools to begin with and do homeschooling instead. Unfortunately they are taxed to pay your salary, so they have no choice.

Considering the rate at which teachers rape and abuse children as well as forcing drugs on them(especially boys) to conform to their indoctrination, there is nothing to respect them for.

They are the state employees doing the most harm to society. [/quote]

I went to a public school and honestly I liked most of my teachers. Two knew I had problems at home even though I never told them, but they would let me hang out in their class after the day was done to talk about physics or math haha. There were a few bad ones, but I don’t think that isn’t common.
[/quote]

I personally didn’t have any physically abusive or monstrous teachers, but that doesn’t represent the majority in the US. I went to school in upper middle class suburban areas. I’ts radically different for high population centers and inner city schools which make up the majority.


#8

[quote]TooHuman wrote:
Any rational adult wouldn’t put their kids in public schools to begin with and do homeschooling instead. Unfortunately they are taxed to pay your salary, so they have no choice.

Considering the rate at which teachers rape and abuse children as well as forcing drugs on them(especially boys) to conform to their indoctrination, there is nothing to respect them for.

They are the state employees doing the most harm to society. [/quote]
Please elaborate.


#9

Public school is fine…


#10

I can see the point of home school today with “common core” and the general low quality of education in the USA.


#11

[quote]Aero51 wrote:
I can see the point of home school today with “common core” and the general low quality of education in the USA. [/quote]

Home schooling is fine…

Private schooling is fine…

I hear this idea that education in the US is generally low quality quite a bit. What is it based on?


#12

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Aero51 wrote:
I can see the point of home school today with “common core” and the general low quality of education in the USA. [/quote]

Home schooling is fine…

Private schooling is fine…

I hear this idea that education in the US is generally low quality quite a bit. What is it based on? [/quote]

  1. objective evidence: numerous ranks show the USA falling behind other countries. There are many reasons for this, amongst them an overemphasis on standardized tests, inadequate pay, profitability of educational companies like Pearson (conflict of interest in terms of profits vs quality), etc.

  2. subjective:
    a)I know many people who had their education in China, india, Europe, and they all say they had a much more rigorous curriculum than in the USA.

b)I briefly dated a girl who had a daughter in 10th grade (had the kid when she was 14, she was 30 I was 24), her daughters “science” class project was to build a Rube Goldberg machine…

c) I have a friend who is a very passionate teacher who has told me there is too much bureaucracy and government involvement in teaching. He said it has lead to a major watering down of education at the local level

d) when I was in school I remember not being taught to think critically. I was taught to take tests.


#13

[quote]Aero51 wrote:

  1. objective evidence: numerous ranks show the USA falling behind other countries. There are many reasons for this, amongst them an overemphasis on standardized tests, inadequate pay, profitability of educational companies like Pearson (conflict of interest in terms of profits vs quality), etc.[/quote]
    I’m not really following how an overemphasis on standardized tests makes Americans worse at standardized testing.

Or how else are we ranking students from different countries?

I mean, I’m assuming standardized tests are used…


#14

[quote]Aero51 wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Aero51 wrote:
I can see the point of home school today with “common core” and the general low quality of education in the USA. [/quote]

Home schooling is fine…

Private schooling is fine…

I hear this idea that education in the US is generally low quality quite a bit. What is it based on? [/quote]

  1. objective evidence: numerous ranks show the USA falling behind other countries. There are many reasons for this, amongst them an overemphasis on standardized tests, inadequate pay, profitability of educational companies like Pearson (conflict of interest in terms of profits vs quality), etc.
    [/quote]

Who is doing the rankings and what is it based on?

Side note:
Inadequate pay… How many other professions start fresh out of college at $45K a year let alone the fact that they only work about 9 months of the year? I’m not anti-teacher by any stretch, but lets have a little perspective here.

[quote]
2) subjective:
a)I know many people who had their education in China, india, Europe, and they all say they had a much more rigorous curriculum than in the USA. [/quote]

How do they know their curriculum was more rigorous?

[quote]
b)I briefly dated a girl who had a daughter in 10th grade (had the kid when she was 14, she was 30 I was 24), her daughters “science” class project was to build a Rube Goldberg machine… [/quote]

I don’t know what that is. Of course I was educated mostly in American’s public school system…

[quote]
c) I have a friend who is a very passionate teacher who has told me there is too much bureaucracy and government involvement in teaching. He said it has lead to a major watering down of education at the local level [/quote]

I don’t disagree that education is overly bureaucratic.

So you have a couple of anecdotes and some sort of ranking system. Not exactly an overabundance of support.

*Note, I’m not saying we can’t do a lot better. I just don’t buy this general low quality business.


#15

Why is a more rigorous curriculum even a good thing?


#16

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]Aero51 wrote:

  1. objective evidence: numerous ranks show the USA falling behind other countries. There are many reasons for this, amongst them an overemphasis on standardized tests, inadequate pay, profitability of educational companies like Pearson (conflict of interest in terms of profits vs quality), etc.[/quote]
    I’m not really following how an overemphasis on standardized tests makes Americans worse at standardized testing.

Or how else are we ranking students from different countries?

I mean, I’m assuming standardized tests are used…[/quote]

Well, you bring up a good point that it is difficult to compare education. One problem is that the standardized tests used can be written poorly. I remember taking an SAT years ago and my friend and I both found a question that had no correct answer. My understanding is that common core has made this worse. A standardized test does not measure how much someone has learned anyway - they are useless most of the time.

I personally believe big business has ruined education. The whole reason we have curriculum changes is so textbook publishers can create new textbooks. How much has basic algebra changed in the last 150 years? It hasn’t. You could pick up a book from 1910 and probably do well in any class today.

What about physics? Basic Newtonian and classical physics has been the same for the last 100 years. While relativity, QM, fluid mechanics and other areas have grew (or were totally born!), a high school student does not need this knowledge to do basic mechanics calculations or basic electricity/magnetism calculations.

English and history might be subjects where curriculum changes are required.

Im not going to list the rest of possible subjects, as you probably get the idea.

The point is: there is a major incentive for the administrators and bureaucrats to unproductively change education. That incentive is textbook sales, sales of new exams (the SATs are not cheap), the sale of training, and whatever expenses are associated with creating a new “curriculum”.

I don’t think this is the only problem. We have parents today that cant handle their child getting a bad grade. We have kids that don’t give a shit. We have a higher education that will put many new college grads in poverty with not guarantee that they will obtain a decent job. We have college curriculums for teachers that are an absolute joke.

I highly value education, this is an issue I am passionate about, hence my rants.


#17

usmccds423, sometimes I think you ask questions just for the sake of asking questions.

  1. Here is one article I got from the super magical tool named google:

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2013/12/03/248329823/u-s-high-school-students-slide-in-math-reading-science

  1. How do they know the curriculum wasn’t as good? This is an annoying question. They were in both or multiple.

  2. A more rigorous curriculum is a good thing relative to what we have now. Rigor helps one develop critical thinking skills. People today don’t think critically.

  3. 45k a year starting is bullshit pay when you factor in taxes and student loan payments. Really they might bring home 70% of that. You can also extend that pay over 12 months. I agree that the summer vacations are bullshit, but at the same time I think Americans deserve more paid time off. In Europe it is common to have a mandatory 4 weeks paid off. Despite what the obnoxious people say who pride themselves on never taking a vacation or being too busy to wipe their ass, vacation is better for productivity and moral. 2 weeks a year is insufficient.

  4. A Rube Goldberg machine you ask? It is a random pile of shit that does something simple:
    https://www.google.com/search?q=rube+goldberg+machine&biw=1536&bih=668&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=TpqVVafEAciv-QG-s6GADA&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg#tbm=isch&q=rube+goldberg+machine+diagram

  5. What evidence do you have to support that education in the USA is superior!


#18

And here is a good summary from the atlantic


#19

[quote]Aero51 wrote:
usmccds423, sometimes I think you ask questions just for the sake of asking questions.
[/quote]

I like to know why people think what they think. You’ll notice I never said you were wrong…

[quote]

  1. Here is one article I got from the super magical tool named google:

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2013/12/03/248329823/u-s-high-school-students-slide-in-math-reading-science [/quote]

So other countries score better on a test(s). So what? I don’t mean that sarcastically either. Why does that matter?

Do you know how many times I’ve used Algebra since I first took Algebra 1 my freshman year of high school (2001). One time and that was to prepare for, wait for it, a test. Geometry? Zero times. Trigonometry? Zero times.

[quote]
2) How do they know the curriculum wasn’t as good? This is an annoying question. They were in both or multiple. [/quote]

They weren’t in both at the same time. They couldn’t possibly be bias either. Maybe they switched from a very good school to a poor one or vice versa.

An annoying question… No one is holding a gun to your head. There’s no reason to be a dick about it.

[quote]
3) A more rigorous curriculum is a good thing relative to what we have now. Rigor helps one develop critical thinking skills. People today don’t think critically. [/quote]

Generalizing a bit don’t you think? A more rigorous curriculum in and of itself does not add value.

[quote]
4) 45k a year starting is bullshit pay when you factor in taxes and student loan payments.[/quote]

That’s more than probably 90% of the people in this world make a year and that’s at 22 with zero experience.

[quote]
Really they might bring home 70% of that. [/quote]

I bet it’s more than that.

[quote]
You can also extend that pay over 12 months. [/quote]
Huh?

[quote]
I agree that the summer vacations are bullshit, but at the same time I think Americans deserve more paid time off. In Europe it is common to have a mandatory 4 weeks paid off. Despite what the obnoxious people say who pride themselves on never taking a vacation or being too busy to wipe their ass, vacation is better for productivity and moral. 2 weeks a year is insufficient. [/quote]

I don’t care what Europe does.

How many business’ only offer two weeks? I’ve never worked for anyone that offers less than 3 and usually it’s 4 after the first year. I don’t’ know anyone that has less than 3 weeks paid vacation, plus sick days, plus 8 or so federal holidays.

Anyway, teachers get 3 months off plus at least 2 weeks vacation plus federal holidays plus inclement weather days.

Ya, I googled it.

[quote]
6) What evidence do you have to support that education in the USA is superior![/quote]

I never said it was…


#20

I have too many conflicting thoughts about education to say anything too sensical right now, but the basic gist of what you said I agree with.

I don’t really agree that “big business ruined education”, but I get where you came up with that conclusion. Mostly I just disagree with blaming vaguely generalized scapegoats, like “big business”, or “administrators” or whatever (“the military”, “the government”, etc.). It’s too easy to give a non-answer like that.

Personally, I think as far as overall educational approach, we (america) puts too much emphasis on memorization and recall, and not enough on applied knowledge and critical thinking skills. And I don’t think we necessarily do a great job with the memorization/recall bit. There’s also too much “partial credit” given, for kind of sort of getting the right answer, but it’s still wrong.

While it was really only available to a select few of the elite class, I also think there’s some value in the classical liberal arts education, where people were actually studying Seneca, Cicero, Aristotle, etc., as well as modern thinkers, so they actually have the background to understand how the ideas developed and evolved to where they are today. I think it’s important to give a perspective so that people understand that “modern time” is not innately superior to our past. Some things are better, some things are worse. People are much the same.

But really, too many jumbled thoughts on this whole education topic.