Another Example / Islamic Tolerence

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
21

[quote]lixy wrote:
Sifu wrote:
In Islam on the other hand a martyr is someone who murders someone else for not being a Muslim.

What the fuck’s the matter with you? This is disinformation in its simplest form.

In Islam if someone from another religion becomes Muslim they are called a revert.

Jesus! You have absolutely no idea about Islam, now do you?[/quote]

Watch the news sometime. Whenever a muslim murders someone because of their religion they are memorialised as a martyr. They will even make a video saying they are going to go and murder people and they call it a martyrdom video.

When a Palestinian muslim blows up a bus in Israel they call him a martyr. When Muslims set bombs off in the London subway they called them martyrs.

I’ll tell you what the fuck is the matter with me. Most of my family lives on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean. The only way to quickly and cheaply visit them is to get on an airplane. For the last few decades everytime I have gotten on an airplane I have had the awful thought go through my head that what if some fucking muslim martyr put a bomb on this plane so I don’t make it there.

The cheapest flight between Detroit and London used to be Pan Am flight 103, until some muslim blew it up over Lockerbie Scotland. Just two weeks earlier my mother flew on Pan Am 103 after visiting our family for Christmas. That was to close for me.

The way I see it is this. We let you Muslims into our countries and allow you to have all the opportunities here. We have police and laws to protect you from hate crimes. So how do you muslims repay us? By murdering people. It’s just not fair. We don’t allow people to lynch you but you repay us with lynching.

I remember a couple of years ago there was a huge benefit concert in Hyde park in London to raise money to help the Tsunami victims, most of whom were muslim. One week later the Muslim world showed what it thought of that by blowing up a bus right outside Hyde park.

If we did not allow any muslims into our countries we wouldn’t have worry about muslim terrorists. We also wouldn’t have to worry about having our civil liberties eroded either. But because our governments want to be fair to you muslims the rest of us have to get fucked.

22

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Watch the news sometime. […] When Muslims set bombs off in the London subway they called them martyrs. [/quote]

BS! Get me one news outlet that did this.

Screw this! Close your borders already. Don’t allow Muslims in for all I care. Just don’t go around bombing them in their countries.

If you wanna make the forefathers spin, it’s totally your choice. I don’t give a damn about that. What I am asking for, is for you to quit waging wars of aggresion Iraq-style.

23

The thread is interesting but it is pure speculation as to what would happen if roles were reversed. The fact is that purveyors of Islam are doing this shit and nobody else is.

Not Christians, Atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, Wiccans, etc. The fact is that Islam is self destructing. The fact is that Islam is in need of epic reform and proper leadership. The fact is that I really don’t know if Islam can be saved, certainly not by the hands of men.

25

lixy wrote:
What I am asking for, is for you to quit waging wars of aggresion Iraq-style.
[/quote]

Maybe the Muslims should snuff out OBL and his ilk first. Then we’d know we were on the same page religiously and politically.

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http://www.thelocal.se/article.php?ID=1775&date=20050722%20target=

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[quote]Sifu wrote:

While 15th century Christians might not have been much fun to be around the same cannot be said about Jesus or first, second, third, century Christians.

[/quote]

Going to circus, seeing lions and all the other good stuff.

28

If it indeed is so, that all the miseries in ME and in the muslim world in general are solely caused by islam, then HH is right, you have to burn the nest. Like smallpox, wipe it out from the face of the earth. You can’t reform something that is fundamentally flawed.

So, how is it? Is islam the source of all bad things in the muslim world? Was the world a better place before Mohammed? If there was no islam, if they all were zarathustrians, would ME be peaceful and democratic?

Personally I think you place way too much importance on religion. Apes don’t need any justifications for violence. They would certainly use them if they could, but they are doing just fine without any rationalizations.

29

[quote]Chushin wrote:
You fail to see (or acknowledge) the role that your religion plays in this “war of aggression” having occurred. I’m not saying it’s the sole cause, but to see them as unrelated is to reside in a state of denial.[/quote]

Now you’re blaming Islam for the war? Interesting…

30

Who edited the title? Pat36? I’m curious…

31

They think the three wise men who visited Jesus in the bible were Maji (Zaroastrian priests) who were following a prophcy of Zarathustra that the messiah would be born in Bethleham at that time.

http://www.efn.org/~opal/templeofthemagi.html

Zoroastrians and Jews had a long history of cooperation and support. The Zoroastrian king, Cyrus the Great freed the Jews from their captivity in Babylon in 537 bc. His decree freeing the Jews is believed by scholars and the United Nations to be the world’s first human rights declaration. You can see it at the links below. I pray for better understanding between the people of Persia and the World.

Cyrus in the Bible, God’s “Anointed One”

About Persia & the Bible

Great Artwork of the Magi & their Star
http://www.textweek.com/art/magi.htm

Maybe things would have turned out better.

You are right that relgion isn’t needed for violence. However I think there are some recurring themes in the major religions that tend to bring out the worst in human nature.

The problems arise from religious rules and doctrines. What happens is the more rules and regulations a religion has and the greater the emphasis on practicing those rules the more likely you are to turn out some nutjobs. The more controlling of a persons life a religion gets the greater the likelyhood that they will get twisted by it.

Muslims, Jews and Christians are all doing it to various degrees. I’ll give you some examples. Reform Jews are mellow and can get along with most people. The ultra orthodox Jews on the other hand (like the one who shot Yitzhak Rabin) you don’t want them getting anywhere near the Israeli nukes.

Protestant (ie Anglican, Lutheran)Christians can be fairly mellow. Roman Catholics on the other hand can be quite fanatical. The Nazis put their three largest concentration camps in Roman Catholic Poland for a reason. It wasn’t just the remoteness. The Poles were more antisemitic than the Germans.

The Tatar Muslim Imam Shamil Alyautdinov will tell you it is okay if you don’t go to mosque. “It is not obligatory,” Mr Alyautdinov adds. “Life is very fast these days, so people don’t have time to go to mosque.”

You don’t see many problems in Russia from their Muslims.

At the other end of the spectrum you have the Wahabi’s in Saudi Arabia. There is a reason why most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi. In other countrys where you see Muslims having a lot of difficulties with their neighbors you will find a heavy Wahabi influence.

It is the religions that have all kinds of petty rules (ie having to dress differently or having to go to pray more than anyone else) that cause their followers to become alienated from the rest of humanity.

I think Jesus saw this, that is why he did away with a lot of the petty rules of Judaism and just went for what he felt was most essential. Belief in one god, ten commandments, forgive and have more love for one another even your enemies.

This is why Jesus became so popular, he got rid of all the BS that turned people away. There is a lesson there for everyone else. You don’t see the Wahabi’s drawing people to Islam, they are alienating people.

32

[quote]Sifu wrote:
It is the religions that have all kinds of petty rules (ie having to dress differently or having to go to pray more than anyone else) that cause their followers to become alienated from the rest of humanity. [/quote]

Whoever said you have to have to dress differently?

[quote]I think Jesus saw this, that is why he did away with a lot of the petty rules of Judaism and just went for what he felt was most essential. Belief in one god, ten commandments, forgive and have more love for one another even your enemies.

This is why Jesus became so popular, he got rid of all the BS that turned people away. There is a lesson there for everyone else. You don’t see the Wahabi’s drawing people to Islam, they are alienating people. [/quote]

That’s one way to look at it. However, I would like something that substantiate your claim that more people are converting to Christianity than to Islam (Wahabism or otherwise).

33

[quote]Sifu wrote:
…

The problems arise from religious rules and doctrines. What happens is the more rules and regulations a religion has and the greater the emphasis on practicing those rules the more likely you are to turn out some nutjobs. The more controlling of a persons life a religion gets the greater the likelyhood that they will get twisted by it.
[/quote]

There is always nutjobs, but they usually don’t emerge in alarming quantities in stable societies. I’m not saying that religion can’t screw a persons life, it most definitely can. Paradoxically, it can also save people.

That’s the point with petty rules, to mark the practitioners as different from the rest. But that isn’t necessarily disruptive for the society as a whole. It can be interpreted as such, though.
I not saying that religion can’t make people to do all kind of evil things. I’m saying that if I want to understand the unrest in ME and terrorism, I look at other factors than religion or ideology. There are always nutjobs, but to have them in such numbers that they can cause more than just grief(sic), there must be something else wrong that makes people willing to try anything.

I’m not denying the fact, that islam as a religion has proven to be well suited for the terrorists cause. I just feel, that seeking reasons from religious doctrine don’t make me to understand anything. Doctrine is just a veneer.

34

I don’t have any numbers on it but I get the impression that a lot of Christians are moving away from the religion or they are at least becoming less religious. Church attendence, figures have been trending downwards for years.

Just like OBL gives people a bad impression of Islam there are some Christians (bible thumpers) who make it embarrassing to be associated with Christianity.

It isn’t just Islam where you can see people adopting religious costumes. There are Jews who wear Yamulka’s or dont cut their hair at the temples. Sikhs who don’t cut their hair and wear turbins. There are Christian groups who dress like people did back in the 19th century. These things set people apart and these people cause themselves to be seen as different.

I have a friend who grew up in the Jehovahs Witnesses. As a kid growing up he never had any friends outside of the Witnesses. This is one of the bad things that religions can do, they seperate people and cut them off from each other. From there it isn’t too hard for resentments or animosities to develop.