T Nation

Another Christianity Debate

[quote]vroom wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
In any case, you are free not to post on these threads. However, since you post alot on these threads, you too, as usual, are a hypocrite!

Are you sure you understand what the term hypocrisy means?

I’m not sure you can see the difference, but I don’t post rabid religious dogma, nor do I start all these threads.

Since they do continue to allow them, I try to counter some of the bullshit spread by you and your ilk.
[/quote]

No, you sure don’t start them, but like a little woman, you fuss and fume about them, while posting on them.

Hypocracy = saying something then acting in a way contrary to the statements.

You, as it relates to critizing those of us posting on Christianity threads, but at the same time post yourself, are a hypocrite!

[quote]vroom wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
They say this because that is what the Bible says. Being “Christian” would mean following “Christ,” and following Chirst would mean to follow what He says. Period. Jesus said that “I am THE way, THE truth and THE life, no man (i.e. nobody) comes unto the Father (i.e. enteres Heaven) except by me (only through Him.” Pretty simple.

LOL.

Look, this is not a universal interpretation, and given your lack of intelligence, you should realize you might be wrong.

This part is alright…

Being “Christian” would mean following “Christ,” and following Chirst would mean to follow what He says.

But this part gets quite tricky…

Jesus said that “I am THE way, THE truth and THE life, no man (i.e. nobody) comes unto the Father (i.e. enteres Heaven) except by me (only through Him.”

Jesus said a lot more than that. In fact, he said many things… some of which seem to conflict with one another.

He also said that one could go to heaven if one followed the laws and loved God.

Are you claiming that he lied?

Following Jesus can also simply mean that you can’t get there without following him.

However, the use of flowery language aside, all you have to do is listen to him and follow his advice, to take his lessons to heart.

It is only us, ourselves, through the process of making historic items more and more significant over time, that have turned this into some strange meaning that is hard to fathom.

Any of the roads that Jesus laid out to us, if we follow them, will lead us where we want to go.

There are at least two occasions where he allows that living well (which is what I call abiding by the commandments) and loving God is sufficient.

However, he does point out that acquiring wealth instead of caring for your fellow man is not acceptable.

Anyway Steveo, like it or not, you don’t have a lock on what Jesus actually meant, you have your own interpretation and given your lack of ability to understand what anybody writes around here I truly question your ability to accurately interpret text written in the language and mindset of someone living two thousand years ago.

You should think about that.[/quote]

Funny that you should think that I am claiming that Jesus lied. YOU, Vroom, are the one who said that Jesus contradicted himself. He did no such thing, because if He did, He would be lying.

My interpretation? That is also very amusing, because the passages that I quoted need only to be read and understood. What interpretation do you need for “I am THE way, THE truth…?” Read it and believe it.

You can read, Vroom, can’t you? I mean, that extensive pornographic and ascerbic vocabulary of yours certainly had to come from years of refined and cultured reading, right?

Sorry, I am laughing my head off just thinking of you trying to read a classic and finding no four-letter words that you understand in it…

Haaahaahaaahaaa!!!

[quote]georgeb wrote:
I appreciate you all you guys who took the time to seriously answer me, and not just complain about certain threads.

One of the biggest things that I hope you could see is that we should be hanging on the details of the exact scripture of whatever religion we are. We should be taking the main idea to guide us, on the basis that we have no pure books to be taking exact interpretations from.

I’m going to use the Bible as an example, as I am most familiar with it. Don’t take this the wrong way, I’m in no way saying the Bible is wrong. However, I think that you when you take the bible literally- word for word- you have to take it with a grain of salt, for a few different reasons:

  • Each of the books in the Bible was written by men. Jesus said himself that no man is perfect or good, and because of this fact, the Bible cannot be 100% good or perfect either simply because the authors were not.[/quote]

Yes, but do you realize that the Bible itself tells us how it was written by man, but it is indeed the Word of God? Look at the following: [b]

2 Peter 1:21
1 Timothy 3:16 [/b]

Although penned by man, the Bible was written by God. Otherwise, how would we know what do believe? Remember that Satan used doubt of the Word of God to get our first parents to sin. Please don’t make that same mistake.[quote]

  • The copies of the Bible we read are translations from other languages. There is the potential for flaw in the translation, because of the huge differences in expression of ideas in different languages.[/quote]

Yes, and that is why you should get a literal transalation and not a “dynamic equivalent” translation. The difference is that the first type is word-for-word, the second type is “idea-for-idea,” and thus frought with interpretative error.

The best translations:

KJV
NKJV
NASB

I would stick to these…[quote]

  • The books of the Bible are extremely old, some of which occurred before written history. Take the example of Adam and Eve. There was no written history when this occured, so this story was likely passed down through verbal stories. The details definately changed. (Look at rumors- how often does the REAL story get told?) Because of this, I don’t think we can take the words literally.[/quote]

Again, if we were just depending upon humans to do this, I would agree. However, the God that created EVERYTHING – you think that this is too hard for God to preserve His Word? If God is God, then how more difficult is it for Him to have His word written through man for man, then create the Universe? [quote]

Either use the versions I suggested, or learn Hebrew and Greek and read it yourself in the original. [quote]

Once again, the Bible is not wrong, but it should not be taken literally.

EDIT: Wrong is the ‘wrong’ word. Right now, my sentence is somewhat of a contradiction. I hope you can skate around my massacre of word choice.[/quote]

Hey bro, the main thing is faith. If you have and place your faith in Jesus, He will enlighten you through His Word. Faith is the key.

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:

No, you sure don’t start them, but like a little woman, you fuss and fume about them, while posting on them.

[/quote]

Like a little woman ? Did someone mention
misogyny was the next thing ?

[quote]vroom wrote:
georgeb wrote:
Once again, the Bible is not wrong, but it should not be taken literally.

Oh oh. According to Steveo, the self appointed judge on the disposition of peoples souls, you are bound for hell.

Enjoy yourself while you are here! :p[/quote]

No, according to Jesus Christ, the God of the Universe, he said:

“Verily, verily, I say unto you except a man be born again, He cannot see the Kingdom of God.”

“I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man cometh unto the Father, except by me.”

Jesus is the judge and jury – methinks you be guilty, Vroom…

"

[quote]Stiggy wrote:
georgeb wrote:
Stiggy wrote:
georgeb wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Honestly, the “Christianity threads” on this board have gotten out of hand. Is there a point to all of this besides just stirring trouble? If someone ever did have something important to say, it would get lost in between retarded rants by self proclaimed “witnesses” and prophets.

For some of us there is. I’m legitimately trying to figure out what to believe in. I’m sorry if other people stirring up trouble have ruined it for you.

Ask yourself, is you legitimately trying to figure out what to believe in a global or political issue ?

Where else would I ask this? I suppose I could have posted this in the Get a Life Forum, but I didn’t think it would make a difference.

Maybe you could ask a priest or something or equiv. Questioning the bible is best done away from this place.
[/quote]

This is what the Bible calls the “blind leading the blind.” This is the worse advice anyone can give to you.

What you should do if you are searching for the truth, is read the Bible yourself and ask God to show you the truth.

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Stiggy wrote:
georgeb wrote:
Stiggy wrote:
georgeb wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Honestly, the “Christianity threads” on this board have gotten out of hand. Is there a point to all of this besides just stirring trouble? If someone ever did have something important to say, it would get lost in between retarded rants by self proclaimed “witnesses” and prophets.

For some of us there is. I’m legitimately trying to figure out what to believe in. I’m sorry if other people stirring up trouble have ruined it for you.

Ask yourself, is you legitimately trying to figure out what to believe in a global or political issue ?

Where else would I ask this? I suppose I could have posted this in the Get a Life Forum, but I didn’t think it would make a difference.

Maybe you could ask a priest or something or equiv. Questioning the bible is best done away from this place.

This is what the Bible calls the “blind leading the blind.” This is the worse advice anyone can give to you.

What you should do if you are searching for the truth, is read the Bible yourself and ask God to show you the truth.[/quote]

How is this bad advice? Asking a Preacher for help is almost exactly the same as asking you. I want outside input that I can possibly apply to myself. A preacher is another person that I can ask. A preacher will be especially helpful because he is well-versed in the ways of Jesus and the Bible. When you want to know something, don’t you ask someone who is more knowledgeable than you?

And also the hardest part for most people.

I have to investigate my own beliefs. I think of it like a new car. I’m going to research it, try it out, try others out, and compare before I finally settle. I can’t just jump behind the wheel and hope that I got the right.

1)Dilemma-I believe that the Word of God has your answer in Romans 2:14-16 “For when the Gentiles,which have not the law,do by nature the things contained in the law,these,having not the law,are a law unto themselves.Which show the work of the law written in their hearts,their conscience also bearing witness,and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.”

a)All man/woman have basic moral concepts.The judgement of these will be based on God’s revelation through nature and a standard of right and wrong as revealed through their conscience.

2.)Praise Jesus or Alla-Romans 1:19-20 states"Because that which may be known of God,is manifest in them,for God hath showed it unto them.For the invisible things of him,from the creation of the world,are clearly seen,being understood by the things that are made,even his eternal power and Godhead,so that they are without excuse."

a)Man/woman can see the attributes of God in his creation.Natural revelation shows that God exists,and can be clearly seen by all mankind,thus all mankind are without an excuse when it comes to “is there a God” If you truly want to know God,pray and seek his truths through his Word,and if you will do so with all your heart His spirit will reveal all truth through his Son,Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.John 16:13 states"…when the Spirit of truth,is come,he will guide you into all truth…"

[quote]blacksheep wrote:
1)Dilemma-I believe that the Word of God has your answer in Romans 2:14-16 “For when the Gentiles,which have not the law,do by nature the things contained in the law,these,having not the law,are a law unto themselves.Which show the work of the law written in their hearts,their conscience also bearing witness,and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.”

a)All man/woman have basic moral concepts.The judgement of these will be based on God’s revelation through nature and a standard of right and wrong as revealed through their conscience.
[/quote]
Exactly. That’s what I would’ve thought. It also shows that you don’t to praise Jesus specifically to be obeying his law. The “law written in their hearts” is the set of universal morals I was talking about. [quote]

2.)Praise Jesus or Alla-Romans 1:19-20 states"Because that which may be known of God,is manifest in them,for God hath showed it unto them.For the invisible things of him,from the creation of the world,are clearly seen,being understood by the things that are made,even his eternal power and Godhead,so that they are without excuse."

a)Man/woman can see the attributes of God in his creation.Natural revelation shows that God exists,and can be clearly seen by all mankind,thus all mankind are without an excuse when it comes to “is there a God” If you truly want to know God,pray and seek his truths through his Word,and if you will do so with all your heart His spirit will reveal all truth through his Son,Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.John 16:13 states"…when the Spirit of truth,is come,he will guide you into all truth…"[/quote]

You’ve outlined the two things I stated all the major religions had: A higher power and basic morals.

Thanks a lot man. From all the “Fanatical Christians” on this forum, I’ve yet to see an overly offensive post. I appreciate your time.

[quote]georgeb wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
Stiggy wrote:
georgeb wrote:
Stiggy wrote:
georgeb wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Honestly, the “Christianity threads” on this board have gotten out of hand. Is there a point to all of this besides just stirring trouble? If someone ever did have something important to say, it would get lost in between retarded rants by self proclaimed “witnesses” and prophets.

For some of us there is. I’m legitimately trying to figure out what to believe in. I’m sorry if other people stirring up trouble have ruined it for you.

Ask yourself, is you legitimately trying to figure out what to believe in a global or political issue ?

Where else would I ask this? I suppose I could have posted this in the Get a Life Forum, but I didn’t think it would make a difference.

Maybe you could ask a priest or something or equiv. Questioning the bible is best done away from this place.

This is what the Bible calls the “blind leading the blind.” This is the worse advice anyone can give to you.

What you should do if you are searching for the truth, is read the Bible yourself and ask God to show you the truth.

How is this bad advice? Asking a Preacher for help is almost exactly the same as asking you. I want outside input that I can possibly apply to myself. A preacher is another person that I can ask. A preacher will be especially helpful because he is well-versed in the ways of Jesus and the Bible. When you want to know something, don’t you ask someone who is more knowledgeable than you?
[/quote]

Well, with all due respect, I think he told you to ask a “priest,” and while they might be knowledgable in Catholic doctrine, I don’t believe they have a good handle on the Bible…

[quote]georgeb wrote:
blacksheep wrote:
1)Dilemma-I believe that the Word of God has your answer in Romans 2:14-16 “For when the Gentiles,which have not the law,do by nature the things contained in the law,these,having not the law,are a law unto themselves.Which show the work of the law written in their hearts,their conscience also bearing witness,and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.”

a)All man/woman have basic moral concepts.The judgement of these will be based on God’s revelation through nature and a standard of right and wrong as revealed through their conscience.

Exactly. That’s what I would’ve thought. It also shows that you don’t to praise Jesus specifically to be obeying his law. The “law written in their hearts” is the set of universal morals I was talking about.

2.)Praise Jesus or Alla-Romans 1:19-20 states"Because that which may be known of God,is manifest in them,for God hath showed it unto them.For the invisible things of him,from the creation of the world,are clearly seen,being understood by the things that are made,even his eternal power and Godhead,so that they are without excuse."

a)Man/woman can see the attributes of God in his creation.Natural revelation shows that God exists,and can be clearly seen by all mankind,thus all mankind are without an excuse when it comes to “is there a God” If you truly want to know God,pray and seek his truths through his Word,and if you will do so with all your heart His spirit will reveal all truth through his Son,Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.John 16:13 states"…when the Spirit of truth,is come,he will guide you into all truth…"

You’ve outlined the two things I stated all the major religions had: A higher power and basic morals.

Thanks a lot man. From all the “Fanatical Christians” on this forum, I’ve yet to see an overly offensive post. I appreciate your time.[/quote]

Don’t miss point #2. This passage is not assigning moral equivalancy to all systems of belief. The passages is telling us we are without excuse before God because He is revealed in creation. It is important to note that what we do with this truth is critical.

[quote]vroom wrote:

I’m sure all the other boards censor this shit down so they can focus on areas that don’t label them as some kind of fundamentalist freaks.[/quote]

…or atheist freaks…

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Honestly, the “Christianity threads” on this board have gotten out of hand. Is there a point to all of this besides just stirring trouble? If someone ever did have something important to say, it would get lost in between retarded rants by self proclaimed “witnesses” and prophets.[/quote]

…or lost between rants of God haters…

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
georgeb wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
Stiggy wrote:
georgeb wrote:
Stiggy wrote:
georgeb wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Honestly, the “Christianity threads” on this board have gotten out of hand. Is there a point to all of this besides just stirring trouble? If someone ever did have something important to say, it would get lost in between retarded rants by self proclaimed “witnesses” and prophets.

For some of us there is. I’m legitimately trying to figure out what to believe in. I’m sorry if other people stirring up trouble have ruined it for you.

Ask yourself, is you legitimately trying to figure out what to believe in a global or political issue ?

Where else would I ask this? I suppose I could have posted this in the Get a Life Forum, but I didn’t think it would make a difference.

Maybe you could ask a priest or something or equiv. Questioning the bible is best done away from this place.

This is what the Bible calls the “blind leading the blind.” This is the worse advice anyone can give to you.

What you should do if you are searching for the truth, is read the Bible yourself and ask God to show you the truth.

How is this bad advice? Asking a Preacher for help is almost exactly the same as asking you. I want outside input that I can possibly apply to myself. A preacher is another person that I can ask. A preacher will be especially helpful because he is well-versed in the ways of Jesus and the Bible. When you want to know something, don’t you ask someone who is more knowledgeable than you?

Well, with all due respect, I think he told you to ask a “priest,” and while they might be knowledgable in Catholic doctrine, I don’t believe they have a good handle on the Bible…

[/quote]

Catholicism and Christianity are both based on Jesus, God, and the Bible. How could a Priest NOT be knowledgeable about the Bible? Don’t be so quick to discredit Catholicism.

And while he did specify a priest, his key words were [quote]priest or something or equiv[/quote]. I believe that a Pastor is the basic equivalent to a Priest.

[quote]deanec wrote:
georgeb wrote:
blacksheep wrote:
1)Dilemma-I believe that the Word of God has your answer in Romans 2:14-16 “For when the Gentiles,which have not the law,do by nature the things contained in the law,these,having not the law,are a law unto themselves.Which show the work of the law written in their hearts,their conscience also bearing witness,and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.”

a)All man/woman have basic moral concepts.The judgement of these will be based on God’s revelation through nature and a standard of right and wrong as revealed through their conscience.

Exactly. That’s what I would’ve thought. It also shows that you don’t to praise Jesus specifically to be obeying his law. The “law written in their hearts” is the set of universal morals I was talking about.

2.)Praise Jesus or Alla-Romans 1:19-20 states"Because that which may be known of God,is manifest in them,for God hath showed it unto them.For the invisible things of him,from the creation of the world,are clearly seen,being understood by the things that are made,even his eternal power and Godhead,so that they are without excuse."

a)Man/woman can see the attributes of God in his creation.Natural revelation shows that God exists,and can be clearly seen by all mankind,thus all mankind are without an excuse when it comes to “is there a God” If you truly want to know God,pray and seek his truths through his Word,and if you will do so with all your heart His spirit will reveal all truth through his Son,Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.John 16:13 states"…when the Spirit of truth,is come,he will guide you into all truth…"

You’ve outlined the two things I stated all the major religions had: A higher power and basic morals.

Thanks a lot man. From all the “Fanatical Christians” on this forum, I’ve yet to see an overly offensive post. I appreciate your time.

Don’t miss point #2. This passage is not assigning moral equivalancy to all systems of belief. The passages is telling us we are without excuse before God because He is revealed in creation. It is important to note that what we do with this truth is critical.
[/quote]

I felt the second passage illustrated the fact that it must be recognized there is something greater that guides the grand scheme of things.

Recognizing that there is something greater means that you are being held accountable for abiding by basic morality.

Prof., Stiggy and Vroom

My point over all is that the freedom to discuss a multitude of topics with people all over the world is part of what makes this a great site. I could discuss religion on a site with people that agree with me, but what?s the fun of that? Christians have not cornered the market on ?hateful? comments on here by a long shot. There is always some one that comes into the Christian threads and inserts their attack on the posters. I have at least kept my posts from getting personal, using profanity or name calling. I don?t think I have told anyone directly that they are going to Hell. Why would saying that someone is going to Hell any different from any other insult that has been thrown around on here? So what if I say that homosexuality is evil. I fail to see what criteria is being used to judge what is appropriate for this forum and what is not. I trust the Mods to do their jobs.

Me Solomon Grundy

[quote]georgeb wrote:

I felt the second passage illustrated the fact that it must be recognized there is something greater that guides the grand scheme of things.

Recognizing that there is something greater means that you are being held accountable for abiding by basic morality.[/quote]

Where do we get basic morality?

Me Solomon Grundy

[quote]Solomon Grundy wrote:
Prof., Stiggy and Vroom

My point over all is that the freedom to discuss a multitude of topics with people all over the world is part of what makes this a great site. [/quote]

And abuse of that freedom could easily lead to us losing the ability to discuss these things.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Solomon Grundy wrote:
Prof., Stiggy and Vroom

My point over all is that the freedom to discuss a multitude of topics with people all over the world is part of what makes this a great site.

And abuse of that freedom could easily lead to us losing the ability to discuss these things. [/quote]

What constitutes abuse?

Me Solomon Grundy