T Nation

Anniversary of Hiroshima

Nuclear War,

Made in America - Field tested in Japan…

And, I hope and pray, is never “field tested” again anywhere.

They had it coming.


Yes it wasn’t nice of the Allies to do that.

Very naughty indeed. But as my grandfather went to New Guinea to fight the Japanese, and my uncle enjoyed their hospitality and cuisine for a few years when the Japanese occupied Singapore (grass soup, anybody?), I reckon any event that shortened the war was worth it.

(BTW: I say Allies as although the US did the deed the Allies benefited so you guys shouldn’t cop the blame for an event which shortened the war.)

The good news is that it will almost certainly never happen again. They learned the first time. Oops, I forgot. They didn’t. But they got the message the second time!

I look forward to the same wrist slapping of the Japanese over the Rape of Nanking and all the other atrocities they committed. But they don’t teach that history in Japan, do they?

If you get guilty feelings I urge you to search the net for pictures of POWs who also enjoyed Japanese hospitality.

Incidentally, the picture above is of a US airman. He was ‘liberated’ by the Japanese after they surrendered.

Enjoy the commemorations.

The atomic bomb was debatably a neccesary evil that shortened the war and prevented allied losses storming mainland Japan. Living in Japan I sometimes defended its use to Japanese people. Ironically, most historians now actually believe that it was the Soviet Union declaring war on Japan on Aug. 8th 1945 which forced Japan to surrender, not the loss of two cities, as the military regime was generally unconcerned with the Japanese people.

But let’s not forget that almost all of those who died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were civilians- old people, children, and women. Others survived, but had parts of their skin burned off, were blinded, had their bodies full of shattered glass. Many people succumbed to diseases such as leukemia, even decades later. Did these civilians deserve this fate David? Why were the bombs dropped on civilians and not on military targets?

Have you visited the Peace Parks at Hiroshima or Nagasaki? I have. It is a profoundly emotional experience and is one of the reasons I am generally anti-war except as a last resort.

Japan’s schools are often criticised internationally for not teaching the whole story about the war, but there are some positives. Most schools had special Peace Studies lessons yesterday where students learned about WW2.

The Atom bombs and Japan’s loss traumatized the nation, and turned it into a very peaceful nation the complete opposite of what it was in the 1930s and 1940s.

We should never forget Japanese atrocities like the starving of POWs and the Rape of Nanking, but we should forgive.

The bomb was used as a method for ending the war(on the surface). However, Japan sought the Soviets in help ending the war shortly before the bomb was dropped. Long story short- The U.S. did not want to Soviets involved, as they felt that they were sure to defeat Japan alone. The U.S. wanted an unconditional surrender an used the bomb to convince the Soviets to pull out of talks with Japan and show them that they had the ultimate weapon first. This would give the U.S. the upper hand in world power. The Soviets would have no alternative not to pull out. Plus it would absolutely convince Japan to give up. That’s why Burns and Truman pushed for the attack.

I agree we should forgive.

And it is easier for people of my generation (I’m 30) to overlook the events and their lessons, and forgive. But at least we know the broad brush of what happened.

The Japanese may be taught peace studies (bit late now, me thinks) but if they aren’t taught that they were also involved in the events and aren’t told of some of their crimes, then how are they going to put Allied actions in context? How can they understand why the Allies dropped the bombs without the other side of the story?

Russia was also the target of the bombs. By dropping them the US was sending a message to the Russians that the US had the means and the will to use the most devastating weapon available. That probably averted a Cold War battle.

And it is terrible that civilians were hurt. But they had a long time to surrender and every day they kept fighting Allies kept dying. That’s a hurdle I can’t get over.

Peace.

[quote]deanosumo wrote:
The atomic bomb was debatably a neccesary evil that shortened the war and prevented allied losses storming mainland Japan. Living in Japan I sometimes defended its use to Japanese people. Ironically, most historians now actually believe that it was the Soviet Union declaring war on Japan on Aug. 8th 1945 which forced Japan to surrender, not the loss of two cities, as the military regime was generally unconcerned with the Japanese people.

But let’s not forget that almost all of those who died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were civilians- old people, children, and women. Others survived, but had parts of their skin burned off, were blinded, had their bodies full of shattered glass. Many people succumbed to diseases such as leukemia, even decades later. Did these civilians deserve this fate David? Why were the bombs dropped on civilians and not on military targets?

Have you visited the Peace Parks at Hiroshima or Nagasaki? I have. It is a profoundly emotional experience and is one of the reasons I am generally anti-war except as a last resort.

Japan’s schools are often criticised internationally for not teaching the whole story about the war, but there are some positives. Most schools had special Peace Studies lessons yesterday where students learned about WW2.

The Atom bombs and Japan’s loss traumatized the nation, and turned it into a very peaceful nation the complete opposite of what it was in the 1930s and 1940s.

We should never forget Japanese atrocities like the starving of POWs and the Rape of Nanking, but we should forgive.[/quote]

Dean

I wouldn’t say most historians agree the Soviet Entry into the Pacific war was the deciding factor . A few new books, recently published ,have made that case and have certainly shed new light on the subject. At the very least it was a contributing factor to the Japanese surrender. At thatg point they had to face the fact that every major power was aligned against them. The hope that the Soviets would interced on their behalf was gone. Then they were hit with a single bomb that destroyed a city. Not a mass attack over several days. One plane, one bomb.

I think the reality was an overwhelming series of events such as the Soviet entry, the bomb, strategic bombing by the US and our Naval Blockade. Certainly the way in which Germany was being treated was also a factor. When they realized we wouldn’t act the way the Japanese Imperial Army would after an invasion, I think the decision was made.

It’s an interesting time to study. Big events, larger then life participants, far reaching consequences to this day.

Japan is fun. Have been there on business. Always felt like a giant walking around. I’m only 6’. I was glad I was on an expense account though. Big $$$ for everything.

By Henry Makow, Ph.D.

The rationale behind the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki 60 years ago is driving the anticipated nuclear strike on an American city by “Muslim terrorists.”

The occult international banking cartel is behind these attacks, past and future. The purpose is to inspire fear and justify repression, war, debt and “world government.”

A half million Japanese civilians were irradiated not to save American lives or impress Soviet Russia. They were slaughtered to force humanity to accept the Cold War, a nuclear arms race that cost five trillion dollars and accomplished nothing. Now that the Cold War has run its course, the bankers have to establish the new “War on Terror” potentially by nuking Americans.

There must always be an external enemy so people don’t realize they are being fleeced by the bankers who appoint the leaders, control the media and create the money.

THE COLD WAR

With World War Two winding down, the bankers needed the “Cold War.”

The bankers ignored Japanese attempts to surrender because they needed to demonstrate the devastating effect of the atomic bomb. “Our entire postwar program depends on terrifying the world with the atomic bomb,” Secretary of State, Edward Stettinius Jr., the son of a JP Morgan partner, said. “We are hoping for a million [dead] tally in Japan. But if they surrender, we won’t have anything.”

My source here is Eustace Mullin’s excellent on line essay, “The Secret History of the Atomic Bomb.” Mullins, a former Library of Congress researcher, is one of a handful of courageous historians the bankers don’t own. I urge you to read his 14-page essay in full.

According to Mullins, President Truman, whose only real job before Senator had been Masonic organizer in Missouri, did not make the fatal decision alone. A committee led by James F. Byrnes, Bernard Baruch’s puppet, instructed him. Baruch was the Rothschild’s principal agent in the USA and a Presidential “advisor” spanning the era from Woodrow Wilson to JFK.

Baruch, who was chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission, spearheaded the “Manhattan Project” named for Baruch’s home turf. He chose life-long Communist Robert Oppenheimer to be Research Director. It was very much the bankers’ bomb.

On August 6, 1945, an uranium bomb 3-235, 20 kilotons yield, was exploded 1850 feet in the air above Hiroshima, for maximum explosive effect. It devastated four square miles, and killed 140,000 of the 255,000 inhabitants.

Mullins quotes a Japanese doctor: “My eyes were ready to overflow with tears. I spoke to myself and bit my lip so that I would not cry. If I had cried, I would have lost my courage to keep standing and working, treating dying victims of Hiroshima.”

When the Air Force dropped the atomic bomb on Nagasaki, the principal target was a Catholic church: “The roof and masonry of the Catholic cathedral fell on the kneeling worshippers. All of them died.”

Back in the United States the news of the bombing of Hiroshima was greeted with a mixture of relief, pride, joy, shock and sadness. Oppenheimer’s colleague remembers the shouts of joy: “Hiroshima has been destroyed! Many of my friends were rushing to the telephone to book tables at the La Fonda Hotel in Santa Fe in order to celebrate. Oppenheimer walked around like a prize-fighter, clasping his hands together above his head as he came to the podium.”

The bankers serve a diabolical power whose goal is to thwart and enslave humanity. The Cold War served to brutalize a whole generation.

Mullins writes: “In the United States, the schools held daily bomb drills, with the children hiding under their desks. No one told them that thousands of schools children in Hiroshima had been incinerated in their classrooms; the desks offered no protection against nuclear weapons. The moral effect on the children was devastating. If they were to be vaporized in the next ten seconds, there seemed little reason to study, marry and have children, or prepare for a steady job. This demoralization through the nuclear weapons program is the undisclosed reason for the decline in public morality.”

CALL IT KARMA?

Now child-like Americans may pay the price for their indifference to the fate of the Japanese and failure to punish the perpetrators who may be preparing to do it all over again. This time, the victims won’t be strange-looking people thousands of miles away.

Sept 11 was the shot across the bow. The most privileged people on earth, Americans were murdered and humiliated in broad daylight. No one was held responsible, a sure sign that their own “leaders” were complicit.

Are Americans going to be disinherited and destroyed? The difference between them and Iraqi insurgents: the Iraqis know they have been invaded by an alien and evil power.

First (and I’m not passionate here) there’s no real difference between nuclear and non-nuclear weopons. They all work because of E=mc^2. Radioactive waste is not CAUSED by the nuclear explosions, but if it exists in the bomb it gets spread out by it.

Second, I’ve seen estimates that the bomb saved more lives than were lost in all of World War II.

[quote]jlesk68 wrote:

The occult international banking cartel is behind these attacks, past and future. …[/quote]

When the occult international banking cartel is behind it, you know it is bad news!

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
jlesk68 wrote:

occult international banking cartel [/quote]

That wouldn’t be code for the illuminati (Bwu-ha-ha-ha!) would it?

Jeez, give it a break, the Japs started the war, so they can’t moan when they got their asses handed to them; the stuff they got up to with allied and chinese prisoners was far more sinister than the atomic bomb ever was.

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
First (and I’m not passionate here) there’s no real difference between nuclear and non-nuclear weopons. They all work because of E=mc^2. Radioactive waste is not CAUSED by the nuclear explosions, but if it exists in the bomb it gets spread out by it.[/quote]

Wow. It’s a rare feat when someone manages to be wrong in every sentence of a post.

Congratulations.

“The U.S. did not want to Soviets involved, as they felt that they were sure to defeat Japan alone.”

Not true. Washington and Moscow agreed much, much earlier that the Russians would enter the Pacific theater 90 days after Germany surrendered.

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Radioactive waste is not CAUSED by the nuclear explosions, but if it exists in the bomb it gets spread out by it.
[/quote]

Accepting your premise for a moment, don’t you think it’s a BAD THING (in general, not this specific circumstance) to spread nuclear waste around? I can gather up all the poison ivy in my yard, where it isn’t harming anyone, refine it into a powder, and spread it with a crop duster over the city. No, poison ivy was not “caused” by my actions, but it certainly got a whole lot more dangerous, didn’t it?

I lived in Hiroshima for 6 months. Some young Japanese wanted me to apologize for the Bomb. I said “You first - remember Pearl Harbor?”
They shut the fuck up.

Still I love Japan and Japanese cars and women and beer, food and saki, martial arts and samurai swords and cartoons and Godzilla and the bullet train.

And they’ve been our best ally other than the Brits and we’re going to need them to keep Asia stable as the Chinese juggernaut continues to grow.

[quote]pookie wrote:
mertdawg wrote:
First (and I’m not passionate here) there’s no real difference between nuclear and non-nuclear weopons. They all work because of E=mc^2. Radioactive waste is not CAUSED by the nuclear explosions, but if it exists in the bomb it gets spread out by it.

Wow. It’s a rare feat when someone manages to be wrong in every sentence of a post.

Congratulations.

[/quote]
Let’s analyze

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/phy99/phy99223.htm

“This relation between mass and energy was made most obvious in the case of radioactivity, when one element changes into another - the masses tend to be different, and the energy released can be very large. The same applies to the nuclear fission and fusion reactions, where the energy released can be determined directly from the mass difference of the reactants. Now, this is actually not really much different from the way in which the chemical energy of molecules changes when molecules join and break up - there would be an associated mass change as well. But the mass change for chemical energy changes is so tiny that nobody had ever observed it, while it is relatively easy to measure in the nuclear case.”

Mertdawg to Pookie:
So conventional/chemical weapons, and non-nuclear processes still derive their energy from E=mc^2.

[quote]pookie wrote:
Wow. It’s a rare feat when someone manages to be wrong in every sentence of a post.
[/quote]

Continuing

http://www.free-definition.com/Nuclear-weapon.html

"Nuclear fallout
The residual radioactive contamination hazard from a nuclear explosion is in the form of radioactive fallout and neutron-induced activity. Residual ionizing radiation arises from:
Fission Products. These are intermediate weight isotopes which are formed when a heavy uranium or plutonium nucleus is split in a fission reaction. There are over 300 different fission products that may result from a fission reaction.

Many of these are radioactive with widely differing half-lives. Some are very short, i.e., fractions of a second, while a few are long enough that the materials can be a hazard for months or years. Their principal mode of decay is by the emission of beta and gamma radiation. Approximately 60 grams of fission products are formed per kilotonne of yield. The estimated activity of this quantity of fission products 1 minute after detonation is equal to that of 1.1 ? 1021 Bq (30 million kg of radium) in equilibrium with its decay products.
Unfissioned Nuclear Material. Nuclear weapons are relatively inefficient in their use of fissionable material, and much of the uranium and plutonium is dispersed by the explosion without undergoing fission.

Such unfissioned nuclear material decays slowly by the emission of alpha particles and is of relatively minor importance.

Neutron-Induced Activity. If atomic nuclei capture neutrons when exposed to a flux of neutron radiation, they will, as a rule, become radioactive (neutron-induced activity) and then decay by emission of beta and gamma radiation over an extended period of time. Neutrons emitted as part of the initial nuclear radiation will cause activation of the weapon residues. In addition, atoms of environmental material, such as soil, air, and water, may be activated, depending on their composition and distance from the burst.

For example, a small area around ground zero may become hazardous as a result of exposure of the minerals in the soil to initial neutron radiation. This is due principally to neutron capture by various elements, such as sodium manganese silicon and aluminum in the soil. This is a negligible hazard because of the limited area involved."

Mertdawg to Pookie:
So the fusion reaction which IS the explosion in Nukes as well as the Hiroshima bomb does not produce any radioactive waste. The waste is a) intermediate sized unstable isotopes that were present in the FISSION TRIGGER for the fusion reaction and b) irradiated soil elements which become unstable as they absorb neutrons which are also the product of fission reactions, not the fusion explosion itself. Pure fusion produced for all practical purposes only gamma rays which are NOT radioactive waste (I hope you know).

Mertdawg to Pookie: Well, I have seen these estimates. Who knows what they mean. My Brother is a professor of Asian studies and he says that a Japanese officer told him that before the Bomb, the Japanese generals were preparing for total population war in which every man woman and child would be expected to fight to the death or commit suicide. Also, many believe it kept the Soviets from immediately invading western Europe to begin WWIII on the spot.

[quote]Pookie wrote:
Wow. It’s a rare feat when someone manages to be wrong in every sentence of a post.
[/quote]

MD to Poopie
Small consolation: Since congratulations is not a sentence, you have met your own rare standard.

[quote]nephorm wrote:
mertdawg wrote:
Radioactive waste is not CAUSED by the nuclear explosions, but if it exists in the bomb it gets spread out by it.

Accepting your premise for a moment, don’t you think it’s a BAD THING (in general, not this specific circumstance) to spread nuclear waste around? I can gather up all the poison ivy in my yard, where it isn’t harming anyone, refine it into a powder, and spread it with a crop duster over the city. No, poison ivy was not “caused” by my actions, but it certainly got a whole lot more dangerous, didn’t it?
[/quote]

You can spread a lot more radioactive waste with a conventional dirty bomb than with a nuclear weapon, and it is completely possible to make a nuclear weapon that produces no radioactive fallout-just electromagnetic radiation. The point is, there are two distinct things we are afraid of with nukes, 1-their ability to kill 100,000 in an instant (which I think is no different from dropping 1000 little bombs.) and 2-the “radioactive fallout” which is only connected to nukes because we use fission triggers, but we could certainly develop non-fission based triggers such as laser triggers.

Killing is bad. War is bad. Pookie is just afraid of Nukes because he’s afraid of going to hell without a chance to say sorry.

Those few hundred thousand civilians had it coming to them. It’s their fault for being born in Japan anyways.

[quote]Floortom wrote:
Those few hundred thousand civilians had it coming to them. It’s their fault for being born in Japan anyways.[/quote]

We warned Japan to evacuate those cities a week ahead of time. They thought they might be able to make them into martyrs.