T Nation

'Ann' and Same Sex Marriage

Here’s an interesting scenario for the anti-gay guys (why is it always guys, by the way?) on our board.

What is your take on “Ann”? Should she marry a man or a woman? If she self-identifies as female, is it ok for her to marry a man, despite your objection to same sex marriage?

How does your logic extend or not extend to same sex marriage in general?

[quote]My daughter,“Ann”, is male. At the basic chromosome level she is XY, just like me.

She presented at birth a female. We had no idea that there was anything awry until she was a teen. “Ann” was in high school and had not yet started her cycle, so I took her to the gynocologist for what I thought would be a simple exam and explanation. The doctor took me privately into her office and explained that Ann had an undeveloped penis and testicles in her abdomen. She presented as a female only because her male parts did not present and develop externally. This was due, most likely, to an incomplete hormonal wash en utero.

I find the incomplete hormonal wash concept fascinating, because I am one of 12 children, and the fifth of six boys; it is very likely that I am gay for the same reason that my daughter is an XY male. Maybe incomplete hormonal washes run somehow in my family. If I showed you a picture of me and my brothers, and asked you, “Ok fellas, which one of these brothers had an incomplete hormonal wash”, you would not have to look long. All of my brothers are extremely muscle bound, like their father. They are aggressive both in business and sports. And me? I am quite small in comparison, and, um, I play the harp with deft fingers…[/quote]

[quote]forlife wrote:
Here’s an interesting scenario for the anti-gay guys (why is it always guys, by the way?) on our board.

What is your take on “Ann”? Should she marry a man or a woman? If she self-identifies as female, is it ok for her to marry a man, despite your objection to same sex marriage?

How does your logic extend or not extend to same sex marriage in general?

My daughter,“Ann”, is male. At the basic chromosome level she is XY, just like me.

She presented at birth a female. We had no idea that there was anything awry until she was a teen. “Ann” was in high school and had not yet started her cycle, so I took her to the gynocologist for what I thought would be a simple exam and explanation. The doctor took me privately into her office and explained that Ann had an undeveloped penis and testicles in her abdomen. She presented as a female only because her male parts did not present and develop externally. This was due, most likely, to an incomplete hormonal wash en utero.

I find the incomplete hormonal wash concept fascinating, because I am one of 12 children, and the fifth of six boys; it is very likely that I am gay for the same reason that my daughter is an XY male. Maybe incomplete hormonal washes run somehow in my family. If I showed you a picture of me and my brothers, and asked you, “Ok fellas, which one of these brothers had an incomplete hormonal wash”, you would not have to look long. All of my brothers are extremely muscle bound, like their father. They are aggressive both in business and sports. And me? I am quite small in comparison, and, um, I play the harp with deft fingers…[/quote]

Your problem is you can never get beyond this topic. You are truly reaching here.

Most people’s “logic” out there tells them it’s icky, wrong and gross.

But what if a person is part cyborg, can they marry a refrigerator?

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
Most people’s “logic” out there tells them it’s icky, wrong and gross.
[/quote]

Are you saying that you would deny Ann the right to marry a man because you think she is icky, wrong, and gross?

Since when does ickiness become the standard for determining equal protection under the law?

[quote]forlife wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
Most people’s “logic” out there tells them it’s icky, wrong and gross.

Are you saying that you would deny Ann the right to marry a man because you think she is icky, wrong, and gross?

Since when does ickiness become the standard for determining equal protection under the law?[/quote]

No, I would never deny Ann the right to Marry a man.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
But what if a person is part cyborg, can they marry a refrigerator?[/quote]

^dat funny! LOL! Thanks man, that made my morning a bit brighter.

[quote]Your problem is you can never get beyond this topic. You are truly reaching here.

Most people’s “logic” out there tells them it’s icky, wrong and gross. [/quote]

Firstly, people believing that something is “icky” or “gross” doesn’t really mean anything. If you find something repulsive, that is your problem. Children find brussels sprouts repulsive, but that is merely their perception and is not relevant to the inherent nature of brussels sprouts. Secondly, appealing to majority opinion to support an argument is an extension of the appeal to authority fallacy. It doesn’t matter how many people believe something - the argument stands independent of its proponents.

Secondly, refuting an argument by saying it is a stretch is to not refute it at all, rather to simply admit intellectual laziness. Any theory that does not apply to all situations is flawed. To give a rather extreme example, imagine a series of police lineups for petty theft including a poor black man and a rich white businessman. If I were to postulate that the poor black man always was the correct culprit, I would be right the vast majority of the time. However, it is the few and far between exceptions that demonstrate the horribly flawed nature of my statement.

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
No, I would never deny Ann the right to Marry a man.
[/quote]

Even though Ann is biologically male, complete with the requisite Y chromosome? Doesn’t that qualify as same sex marriage?

What if a man lost his penis, Bobbitt-style? Would you then support him getting married to another man?

Where do you draw the line?

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
But what if a person is part cyborg, can they marry a refrigerator?[/quote]

You don’t get it. They don’t have to be cyborg. They just have to self-identify as part cyborg. Then they can marry any appliance they want. Jeez.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
But what if a person is part cyborg, can they marry a refrigerator?[/quote]

Sure, as long as its not a fridge/freezer, cuz that would be wroooong!

Cyborgs are unnatural, so they shouldn’t be allowed to marry, period :wink:

On a more serious note, the “Anns” of the world do exist, and I’m curious how the anti-gay crowd would handle these situations.

My church was never able to explain how to deal with gray areas like this. They took the approach that “God will figure it all out in the next life”, but didn’t offer much guidance for people in this life.

Meanwhile, Ann is a real person wanting to find love and happiness just like anyone else.

I think the approach people take to situations like Ann’s reveals a lot about their reasons for opposing or promoting same sex marriage.

Obviously the state should recognize however many men AND women Ann chooses to marry. This way there’s no chance Ann’s sexual orientation/identity is discriminated against. Ann would have the legal benefits extended to whoever, and how ever many.

[quote]forlife wrote:
Cyborgs are unnatural, so they shouldn’t be allowed to marry, period :wink:

On a more serious note, the “Anns” of the world do exist, and I’m curious how the anti-gay crowd would handle these situations.

My church was never able to explain how to deal with gray areas like this. They took the approach that “God will figure it all out in the next life”, but didn’t offer much guidance for people in this life.

Meanwhile, Ann is a real person wanting to find love and happiness just like anyone else.

I think the approach people take to situations like Ann’s reveals a lot about their reasons for opposing or promoting same sex marriage. [/quote]

Scientifically, it is a ‘he’. Since it is fucked up though and won’t create children (the purpose of marriage), then it shouldn’t marry.

So you think Ann shouldn’t be allowed to marry, but an infertile man with low sperm count should be able to marry?

[quote]forlife wrote:
So you think Ann shouldn’t be allowed to marry, but an infertile man with low sperm count should be able to marry?[/quote]

Correct, you shouldn’t be allowed to marry.

[quote]forlife wrote:
My church was never able to explain how to deal with gray areas like this. They took the approach that “God will figure it all out in the next life”, but didn’t offer much guidance for people in this life.[/quote]

There’s an old saying, hard cases make bad law. Writing law to cover the gray areas causes the clarity of the law to be obscured by exceptions and strained interpretations.

Man, that would be cool

I have to be honest, I thought this would have something to do with Ann Coulter. She’s a terrible person, but I’d do all kinds of things to her.

I have to be honest, I thought this would have something to do with Ann Coulter. She’s a terrible person, but I’d do all kinds of things to her.

I have to be honest, I thought this would have something to do with Ann Coulter. She’s a terrible person, but I’d do all kinds of things to her.