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If one were to do a 2on/4off cycle using 1000mgs of primo on day 1 and 300mgs on days 4, 7, and 10 with winstrol at 250mgs on day 1 and 50mgs every day until day 10 or so, would it be a good idea to use androsol in the ensuing off weeks (weeks 5 & 6?) in order to help solidify gains? How about using anavar at 25mgs upon waking along with anadrol (2 doses; one upon waking and one around noon) during weeks 3 and 4, and then using the androsol for weeks 5 and 6. If this is not overkill, which would be a wiser plan: 70 sprays morning-only or the recommended 70 sprays 2x a day? Clomid would be used in the cycle per Roberts recommendations.

racer, are you suggesting 100mg (2 doses) of Anadrol daily and also using anavar at 25mg daily during your off weeks?!?! i hope not. If you are then your week 3 and week 4 is combined to be 1750mg of roids (875/week) and that is far too much.

Anadrol, as Brock has said before, is damn strong by it self at 50mg/day. Forget the anadrol and anavar since they are too potent.

I suggest bridging with the androsol at 70 sprays mornining only along with some clomid during your off weeks. That should prevent any crashes or inhibition. Just my $.02

Scott: The anadrol tabs would be cut in half, yielding two doses of 25mgs each (one taken upon waking and one around noon) for a TOTAL of 50mgs.

your cycle seems backwards. Primo is a drug that would be used to solidify gains, bridge. For the start of the cycle you would want the faster acting roids.

I personally would just run the primo with androsol or winstrol for a longer period, say 8 weeks.

i agree with dawg. primo is pretty mild and won’t give you drastic results at the dosages you’re taking it at for those 4 injections. again, you didn’t really address my concern that bridging with that much is pointless. its not bridging. there is no recovery with 50mg/day of anadrol and 25mg/day of anavar. either use those orals during your on time or don’t use them at all. also, from my understanding, bridging is best done first thing in the morning, ie. take whole dose upon wakening.

Scott: Here is my reasoning. According to Bill Robers, ideal anabolics for short cycles are those that will enable one to get levels up quicky and will cause little inhibition into week 3, or those anabolics with short half-lives. Examples would be primo, tren, winstrol, and the short chain test. esters. Now that we have the anabolics to choose from, it is in our best interest to combine a class 1 with a class 2 for synergy. Examples of class 1 are primo, tren, deca, and anavar. Class 2 are dianabol, anadrol, androsol, winstrol, and halotestin. I have chosen primobolan to be my class 1 and winstrol to be my class 2 since they will complement each other. Now, once the cycle is over Roberts recommends applying his “orals only before noon” theory in order to maximize keeping the gains achieved by the 2-week cycle. He personally recommends only 40mg total of orals but has repeatedly stated that one could even go as high as 100mg, although he has not tried this himself. So, to keep our gains I have chosen two orals: oxandrolone(anavar) and anadrol. “Oxandrolone while doing little by itself adds alot of kick to dianabol or anadrol”, says Roberts. In his short cycle experiment posted on the Metamorphosis site, his test subject used 25mgs of oxandrolone upon waking along with 10mg of dianabol upon waking and another 10mg of dianabol right before noon. I have simply chosen 50mgs of anadrol in place of dianabol because it does not convert to estrogen if one is using non-aromatizing anabolics. Does this clear things up?

Bill: since you have some free time to post again could you please comment on what has been discussed here in this thread. It would be greatly appreciated!

sounds like a good plan racer. i do disagree with bridging with 75mg/day of steroids although Bill says you can go as high as 100mg. even though your taking it before noon it will still be 525mg/week. moreover, oxy and oxa are pretty powerful orals, based on from what i’ve read and heard. there might be some inhibition but there’s only one way to find out. try it out! good luck man.

OK, here’s the thing: Do you want to be able
to do many cycles back-to-back with no
cumulative adverse effect on testicle size
and natural testosterone production in the
off weeks? If yes, then one has to be
reasonably conservative in the off weeks.

We know that if Clomid is used, morning-only
dosing of oral anabolics can be done for
weeks 3 and 4 and still achieve the above
goal. I would guess that morning-only Androsol, washed off at 7 PM, could also
be used INSTEAD of the orals while achieving
that goal, but we don’t know that for sure.

I wouldn’t push it to where in weeks 5 and
6 something was still being used. The net
gains can still be excellent with having
some weeks completely off, and it’s best
IMO to have some weeks completely off.

Being “half on” for weeks 3 and 4, if you
count it as being half on, works out to being
like, in a sense, being on 3 weeks out of
every 6: still reasonably conservative. In
terms of how many weeks you are producing
good natural testosterone, though, you are
still on only 2 out of every 6 which is very

I didn’t answer your question first time I
saw it because it seemed to fall into the
category, “If I take more drugs longer
will I get more results?” and the answer
is generally yes, except where you’re talking
about being on more than 2/3 of the time
(doesn’t add anything really) or really high
doses. Basically, below that level, it’s all
a tradeoff of getting a little more gains at
the cost of a lot more inhibition and other
possible risks, and what each person considers
ideal really depends on their goals. But on
seeing the question again, it really was
pretty specific, so I hope these answers help!

Ok, a bit more info:

Bill Roberts, Brock Strasser, or anyone else in the know. I am still trying to construct the “perfect” short-cycle to meet my needs. My goal is still to gain 20lbs of retainable muscle while of course increasing strength and keeping sides to a reasonable minimum. I would like to achieve this goal with only 1 or 2 short cycles. I am quite certain that I am close to my genetic limit, as I have been training seriously for 6 years. I have qualified for Nationals in powerlifting as well so I am no stranger to the weightroom. I have tried all methodologies (Poliquin, King, etc.) and all diets several times over. Conclusion: gains have slowed to a crawl so I am quite certain that I am NEAR my genetic potential.

I am proposing doing a 2on/4off cycle using 1000mgs of primo on day 1 and 300mgs on days 4, 7, and 10 with winstrol at 250mgs on day 1 and 50mgs every day until day 7 and then switching the 50mgs of winstrol to oral administration for days 8,9, and 10. I am then switching to anavar at 25mgs upon waking along with anadrol (2 doses of 25mgs each, totaling 50mgs); one upon waking and one around noon) during weeks 3 and 4, along with starting clomid at 300mgs on day 1 of week 3 and continuing with 50mgs for the remainder of weeks 3, 4, 5, and 6.

I am wondering if androsol could be beneficial if used during the "on" weeks with the primo and stanozolol or simply overkill.

Can the winstrol be orally administered beyond day 10 (like up to day 14) and still be limiting in its inhibition?

Would the anadrol serve me better if I took it during the “on” weeks either with the primo and winstrol or in place of the winstrol?

Do you recommend cytadren at 1/2 tab (125mg) upon waking and 1/4 tab six and then twelve hours later during weeks 1&2? How about 1/2 tab upon waking during weeks 3&4?

I thank all responders for their time and advice in helping me to reach my goals

Yes, I believe that Androsol (or Nandrosol)
would definitely noticeably add to the
results of a Primo / 50 mg/day Winstrol stack. Not
because I have made that exact comparison,
but because 50 mg/day Dianabol does, and from
what I’ve seen, max-dose Androsol or Nandrosol
will match or exceed what that dose of Dianabol
does in every situation seen thus far, whether
in a stack or alone.

That might not be the case if the Winstrol
were higher dose – I don’t know – but is definitely true when
Winstrol is at 50 mg/day.

And yes, the oral use of Winstrol can be
continued right up to day 14, and if you
liked (I would) it could be used orally
in the mornings in weeks 3 and 4 as well.
I would just keep the total dose of orals
to 50 mg/morning or less: 30 or 40 is
still good but 50 gives no problems.

I am really not sure on the Anadrol question.
It hasn’t been tested on the morning-only
dosing scheme and who knows, there might
be a surprise of it being inhibitory. (Maybe
because of progestagenic effect.) If you
were not going to use Androsol or Nandrosol,
sure, 50 mg/day of Anadrol, divided doses
(like 1/4 tab four times per day) would help
quite a bit. If using Androsol or Nandrosol,
I doubt it would give much further help.

The Cytadren during the “on” weeks is good
if using an aromatizing steroid like Dianabol
or testosterone. However, neither Primo nor
Winstrol aromatizes, and neither Androsol nor
Nandrosol gives above-normal estrogen levels,
so there really would be no reason. If you
use Anadrol, it doesn’t aromatize either
(contrary to what others say without evidence, as a result I believe of confusing estrogenic with progestagenic

During the off weeks there would be no
point either, since no aromatizing drugs
were or are being used.

Bill: I am fascinated by this short-cycle stuff and thank you for bringing the idea to light.

So, based on your advice I will go with the primo/winstrol/androsol during the “on” weeks and try to maintain gains during weeks 3&4 with 25mg of oxandrolone upon waking along with two 25mg doses of oxymetholone which will be taken (1)upon waking and (2)right before noon. My final question is this: I know that you recommend 40-50mg of orals (total) during weeks 3&4 but you have stated numerous times that studies have indicated that one can go as high as 100mgs and still be ok. So, since my TOTAL oral usage during weeks 3&4 will be 75mg do you think that it poses any real threat to my health? I am almost dead set on using the oxandrolone/oxymetholone combo but I want to use them wisely. How would you use them in this cycle, keeping my goals in mind?

The alkylated-steroids toxicity issue is
both dosage and duration dependent. If the
duration is too long (especially if continuous)
results with women show that even tiny doses
can eventually lead to liver toxicity problems.
We see in athletic use though that substantial
doses are okay if for a limited period of time
followed by a good “off” period.

So, the 75 mg/morning total dose you are talking about would be fine (in my opinion)
for a limited period with plenty of off time,
such as you’d have if you used no alkylated
steroids in weeks 1 and 2 or 5 and 6, but
only in weeks 3 and 4. If you are also using
them in weeks 1 and 2 I would want to cut back.
This is a really good thing about Androsol
and Nandrosol: they act like the alkylated
steroids, from what I see, in muscle building
properties, but without the liver toxicity.
So you could skip orals in weeks 1 and 2
yet still get the same muscle building effect,
and be “free” to go a little heavy in weeks
3 and 4 in total oral dosage.

If using oxandrolone I would use it on arising
only, instead of both arising and at noon, because the half life is long, 8 hours. The dose I
looked at was only 20 mg and that worked okay.
It’s possible higher doses might be too much
because of the long half life.

So I would look at trying say 20 mg oxandrolone on arising plus half a tab of Anadrol, and then the other half tab at noon. This might
work well, but would be an experiment (since
I have not tested whether Anadrol is noninhibitory with this kind of timing, or not.) You would be able to tell for yourself whether it was, either by actually getting
T levels tested, or just noticing whether
you have good “morning wood” or not. At that
point, on awakening, you’d have almost no
oral steroids left over from the previous
day’s dose, so any androgens in your system
will be your natural T. If that’s low, you
ought to be able to tell, and if it’s good,
that also should be obvious. The “wood assay”
is pretty accurate. (Not necessarily whether
you have spontaneous erections, but whether
you easily get a good one if you want to.)

Bill, I thank you for taking the time to offer your advice to this thread.

I will be starting this short cycle sometime in January 2001 and will post on the board once I begin. I would like to give daily updates so that others may learn from what I am doing. I will keep a very detailed log of my training, diet, and anabolics used. As I stated, my goal is to gain 20lbs of obtainable muscle so if I fall short everyone here at the T-Mag forum will know it!

I also plan on getting my T-levels tested during weeks 3&4 so we will know exactly what the anadrol is doing. Never underestimate a T-Man's ability to get morning wood, despite the circumstances!!! The proof will be in the blood, so to speak.

If ANYONE feels that I have missed something or failed to consider certain things, please speak up! Otherwise, stay tuned!!!