Ancient Greek Training

[quote]Gym Savvy wrote:
What implements did they use? Natural things like rocks, trees, etc; existing tools put to a new use (hammers, anvils, etc); or did they have specially made things such as barbell-like objects?[/quote]

I don’t mean to be rude here but;

Is it even worth two seconds of a wonder that a civilization which designed and built some of the most amazing works of architecture and wonders in history could fashion a barbell???

Traditionally, Greek art depicts a kind of dumbbell which is speculated (or recorded, I’m no expert) was used in long jump competitions. Milo is the wrestler who carried a cow on his back, and won many awards as an athlete. But remember, the Greeks loved boxing (pancrase), runnin, chariots, and wrestling. Not exactly a strongman competition.

Jesus this shit is interesting. Macedon, mythologically, was the origin of the power base of the ethnic greeks known as the dorians. Anyone familiar with classical Greece knows these as one of the two prominent ethnic (the ionians, who contributed the attic greek dialect, being the other, though the aetolians were also prominent) greeks following the anarchy after the collapse of the Mycenaean civilization. Their first prominent King, Alexander I, was a powerful supporter of Greek interests agains Darius and Xerxes of Persia.

Following the events at 300 and the battle at Salamis, their was still a very powerful Persian army (numbering 50,000 by some accounts) which remained in Greece. Following a final battle of plataea, Alexander was responsible for eliminating the Persian forces. He was able to prove a claim of greekness and competed in the Olympics.

However, anarchy in Macedon reigned without a stable and victorious king. In this time, Macedon cemented herself economically with the capture of an important timber outpost, gaining a foothold in trade with athens. Athens was alread dependent on grain from the Ukraine region shipped all the way from the Black Sea.

(I do not rely entirely on Wikipedia, several comments are anecdotes or summaries of texts I have come across)

Finally, the family of Alexander the Great is decended from an incident of regicide. Prior to this, the throne was remarkably consistently in the family of the first Alexander, from 498 bCE to 393 BCE. The last Royal king was Pausianas, who was assassinated by Alexander the Great’s grandfather. Phillip was the youngest son of Amyntas III, and the rest is history.

guys you are getting off topic.Yes the average ancient greeks did not eat so much meat but we are talking about ancient greek athletes here.And I assure you they ate a LOT of meat.Some of them even did a meat only diet.The puspose of this thread is not to prove anything about greeks but to show the methods they used back then lol.

The thread is about TRAINING history not just history.Yes Ancient Greeks were awesome and did a lot of great things but who cares.What matters is what we are doing today and today this country is completely f@c%#d up.

And for god’s sake read some history books.Macedonia and Epirus were (and are) Greek they just didn t make a big impact like Athens and Sparta until Alexander The Great.So please end it here and only post things about their training or diet…

[quote]deit23 wrote:
guys you are getting off topic.Yes the average ancient greeks did not eat so much meat but we are talking about ancient greek athletes here.And I assure you they ate a LOT of meat.Some of them even did a meat only diet.The puspose of this thread is not to prove anything about greeks but to show the methods they used back then lol.

The thread is about TRAINING history not just history.Yes Ancient Greeks were awesome and did a lot of great things but who cares.What matters is what we are doing today and today this country is completely f@c%#d up.

And for god’s sake read some history books.Macedonia and Epirus were (and are) Greek they just didn t make a big impact like Athens and Sparta until Alexander The Great.So please end it here and only post things about their training or diet…
[/quote]

Hey dude. Just read this and I’m intrigued to find out more. Is this info available online, or am I going to have to buy a book/s on the subject?

regardless of all the side factors of health issues, this is a really cool post and the greeks were definitely a bunch of beasts.

The idea of their diet and training not necessarily taking into consideration longer life expectancies is interesting, not that I’m trying to incite an argument as to whether that is true or not. I was in Turkey for a month last fall, and apparently, perhaps due in part to their Mediterranean diet, they have higher rates of liver disease. My guide was in his late thirties and facing some health problems of this sort himself.

[quote]deit23 wrote:
guys you are getting off topic.Yes the average ancient greeks did not eat so much meat but we are talking about ancient greek athletes here.And I assure you they ate a LOT of meat.Some of them even did a meat only diet.The puspose of this thread is not to prove anything about greeks but to show the methods they used back then lol.

The thread is about TRAINING history not just history.Yes Ancient Greeks were awesome and did a lot of great things but who cares.What matters is what we are doing today and today this country is completely f@c%#d up.

And for god’s sake read some history books.Macedonia and Epirus were (and are) Greek they just didn t make a big impact like Athens and Sparta until Alexander The Great.So please end it here and only post things about their training or diet…
[/quote]

You make a stronger arguement than I had expected. Yes, we should understand that the olympics were the elite of the elite, hence why kings and such did compete, there was a lot of meat in a aristocratic diet, or if an athlete was successful he was treated much like a football player (american or global footy) is today. Macedon was kind of Greek, but it was also Thracian, Dacian, Romanian (there is a joke in that sentence) but to say it was Greek just because the aristocracy was influenced by Greek (city state) culture is to much of a stretch. Similarly, Epirus was also not of the Greek descent, but was a close neighbour. We wouldn’t say that Etruscans and Romans were the same, despite living in the same peninsula.

Given alll that…

Hoplite warfare is brutal. Heavy armor if you are lucky meant that significant muscle development was present. Battles were often short affairs, in many historians estimation, and one side would quickly gain a dominant position. I would need to read more Thucyclides though. The act of holding a dory, or holite spear, would have conditioned the arms to strenuous loads, and the “relative” lack of beasts of burden combined with unfriendly soil gave Greeks a hardy constituency. There just isn’t anything to special, they had big boys and little ones, the more food you got the better, the actively trained even when at peace, their armies practiced discipline, the relished athletics. I mean, I am still waiting for a primary source to purvey, or for anyone to cite any ancient author as the source for their allegation. I have done so many times (though only anecdotally, I paraphrase), and I will post a history of the Illyrians and Epirus in a short time.

Why don’t you just stop posting.

[quote]Kanada wrote:

[quote]deit23 wrote:
guys you are getting off topic.Yes the average ancient greeks did not eat so much meat but we are talking about ancient greek athletes here.And I assure you they ate a LOT of meat.Some of them even did a meat only diet.The puspose of this thread is not to prove anything about greeks but to show the methods they used back then lol.

The thread is about TRAINING history not just history.Yes Ancient Greeks were awesome and did a lot of great things but who cares.What matters is what we are doing today and today this country is completely f@c%#d up.

And for god’s sake read some history books.Macedonia and Epirus were (and are) Greek they just didn t make a big impact like Athens and Sparta until Alexander The Great.So please end it here and only post things about their training or diet…
[/quote]

You make a stronger arguement than I had expected. Yes, we should understand that the olympics were the elite of the elite, hence why kings and such did compete, there was a lot of meat in a aristocratic diet, or if an athlete was successful he was treated much like a football player (american or global footy) is today. Macedon was kind of Greek, but it was also Thracian, Dacian, Romanian (there is a joke in that sentence) but to say it was Greek just because the aristocracy was influenced by Greek (city state) culture is to much of a stretch. Similarly, Epirus was also not of the Greek descent, but was a close neighbour. We wouldn’t say that Etruscans and Romans were the same, despite living in the same peninsula.

Given alll that…

Hoplite warfare is brutal. Heavy armor if you are lucky meant that significant muscle development was present. Battles were often short affairs, in many historians estimation, and one side would quickly gain a dominant position. I would need to read more Thucyclides though. The act of holding a dory, or holite spear, would have conditioned the arms to strenuous loads, and the “relative” lack of beasts of burden combined with unfriendly soil gave Greeks a hardy constituency. There just isn’t anything to special, they had big boys and little ones, the more food you got the better, the actively trained even when at peace, their armies practiced discipline, the relished athletics. I mean, I am still waiting for a primary source to purvey, or for anyone to cite any ancient author as the source for their allegation. I have done so many times (though only anecdotally, I paraphrase), and I will post a history of the Illyrians and Epirus in a short time.[/quote]

Ancient Greek Athletic Training | livestrong this is interesting, and it led me on to this >>>

http://openlearn.open.ac.uk/mod/oucontent/view.php?id=404699§ion=8.1 The hoplitodromos - The armoured run…Middle distance running on steroids.

[quote]joutmez wrote:
Why don’t you just stop posting.

GO fuck yourself, don’t read what you don’t like. This thread is only relevant because I have made it so. Believe whatever you want, but at least I know a thing or two about this.

[quote]pgtips wrote:
Ancient Greek Athletic Training | livestrong this is interesting, and it led me on to this >>>

http://openlearn.open.ac.uk/mod/oucontent/view.php?id=404699§ion=8.1 The hoplitodromos - The armoured run…Middle distance running on steroids. [/quote]

Thank god something to read. Odd, this seems to be on par with what I have said… but until I read it I’ll hold my opinion.

In the ancient world, we must understand that leisure and luxury were at a premium, and frankly those with leisure and luxury, then as now, were more likely to skip the workout and head straight to the baths. True physical culture is almost always expressed by the military classes, the Greeks are not the sole proprietors of athletics nor were athletics very far removed from war and farming.

[quote]Kanada wrote:

[quote]pgtips wrote:
Ancient Greek Athletic Training | livestrong this is interesting, and it led me on to this >>>

http://openlearn.open.ac.uk/mod/oucontent/view.php?id=404699Ã?§ion=8.1 The hoplitodromos - The armoured run…Middle distance running on steroids. [/quote]

Thank god something to read. Odd, this seems to be on par with what I have said… but until I read it I’ll hold my opinion.

In the ancient world, we must understand that leisure and luxury were at a premium, and frankly those with leisure and luxury, then as now, were more likely to skip the workout and head straight to the baths. True physical culture is almost always expressed by the military classes, the Greeks are not the sole proprietors of athletics nor were athletics very far removed from war and farming. [/quote]

The greeks were a pretty “militarisic” lot, and the olympics reflects that. What with the Javelin, running, fighting and chariots.

The hoplitodromos was pretty much a purely military display. I think I remember reading that it was introduced about the time they had some shit going on with the Persians. They needed to be fit enough to close ground with the persian archers without being turned into pin cushions.

I also found an article about the people who would have been the oarsmen on the greek seaships, and how they would have been as fit as an elite level athlete of the modern world.

I didn’t like the way they interpreted the research though .I’ll have a look and see if I can find it caise it was still a pretty interesting read.

Wow tough guy can get big on the internet. I don’t like your attitude brah. All you’ve demonstrated is that you can regurgitate bits and pieces of information you’ve read about. I can go find a bunch of sources stating the opposite of what your claiming(not that I am going to do this). You have a condescending douche bag way of posting which is why I think you should stop. Your not the first person to go to college. Plus I hardly see the relevance between your posts and ancient Greek training. Please don’t take this as an invitation to show me how the two are connected. Haha by the way how the fuck am I gonna know I don’t like what you wrote until I read it.

[quote]Kanada wrote:

[quote]joutmez wrote:
Why don’t you just stop posting.

GO fuck yourself, don’t read what you don’t like. This thread is only relevant because I have made it so. Believe whatever you want, but at least I know a thing or two about this.[/quote]

[quote]

In the ancient world, we must understand that leisure and luxury were at a premium, and frankly those with leisure and luxury, then as now, were more likely to skip the workout and head straight to the baths. True physical culture is almost always expressed by the military classes, the Greeks are not the sole proprietors of athletics nor were athletics very far removed from war and farming. [/quote]

about the spartans

“After they were twelve years old, they were no longer allowed to wear any undergarments, they had one coat to serve them a year; their bodies were hard and dry, with but little acquaintance of baths and unguents; these human indulgences they were allowed only on some few particular days in the year. They lodged together in little bands upon beds made of the rushes which grew by the banks of the river Eurotas, which they were to break off with their hands with a knife; if it were winter, they mingled some thistle-down with their rushes, which it was thought had the property of giving warmth.”

  • Plutarch

Plutarch wrote:
Lycurgus??s laws meant wealthy Spartans “could no longer spend their lives at home, lying on their couches and stuffing themselves with unwholesome delicacies, like pigs being fattened for slaughter. No longer could they ruin not only their minds but also their bodies, becoming so weak by lazy overindulgence that they needed long sleep, warm baths, and about as much care as if they were constantly sick.”

also in athens, when the democracy etablished, the rich people had to come up for every poor citizen, for food, meetings, and even things like going to theatre, so that every citizen wheather poor or rich, is like the same.

You dont see that anymore in todays “democracys”.

That shows something about the difference in mentallity, I dont think weahlty famiies were lazy and aristocratic at all.

Okay, Ancient Greece was always small, still is.

thats it, no more off topic from my side.

[quote]dknoerzer wrote:
The idea of their diet and training not necessarily taking into consideration longer life expectancies is interesting, not that I’m trying to incite an argument as to whether that is true or not. I was in Turkey for a month last fall, and apparently, perhaps due in part to their Mediterranean diet, they have higher rates of liver disease. My guide was in his late thirties and facing some health problems of this sort himself.[/quote]

Any idea what especially could cause these?

Can you give a link to that, find that interesting.
I would be interested in reported workouts or at least methods from back then, but I cant found, we will never know.

The only things I find that lead me to the conclusion that ancient people in general were incredibly all round “fit”, are things like the run from athens to sparta, Pheidippides, 250km in under 36h, which was later called spartathlon.

But thats logical in a time wihtout cars, planes and “industrial” civilization.

[quote]gigigo wrote:

heres the article :slight_smile: Fitness Has Fallen Since The Days Of Ancient Greece | ScienceDaily

I think the notion that all ancient Greek people were exceptionally fit is a bit on the wild side. Whilst they would certainly have had a fitter general population, I find it highly unlikely they would all have been athletes - people would genraly be fitter and stronger due to the Labourious nature of their lives.

Still, I’d love to know exactly what their different training methods were. From what I can glean from the internet and “convert” into “modern” training principles it seems like relatively simple sprinting and middle distance running coupled with bodyweight and odd object lifting.

For an ancient Olympian this would be a great way to train as the individual athlete would compete in all of the events.

Bloody hell, Ancient greeks are interesting. I never paid them much attention untill I read this thread, I’m going to have to look deeper into them!

Milo of Kroton - This is pretty mental also if true - Milo of Kroton.

The picture of the stone is like a dumbell. Look at the shadowy area, it has a hole with a grip! haha.

the inscription states somebody lifted it overhaed with one hand, but I have seen this on other sites with varying names - but still, somebody lifted it over their head, and that somebody would have a been a strong bastard.

So by being a douchbag I finally got some sources. Thank you for the small readings of Plutarch, I will confirm (amazing I know) that the Spartans were probably the craziest bunch of individuals to roam the earth. Not only were they supremely conditioned soldiers (not athletes, athletes get hurt to much) but they were probably one of the most dominant slave owners in ancient society. Those poor helots, tens of thousands of them kept down by less than ten thousand spartans. It is amazing that as a society they never once deviated from their plan of being the meanest greeks and also the most tyrannical oppressors of greeks.

Any training methodology worth its shit is originated in a fight for your own survival. Train as if not training will get you killed, and you have a pretty solid workout regimen. I only exists to disprove false ideas about history, so don not speculate if your cannot verify. Which, by and large, most of you have been unable to do. Yes I regurgitate, but if you want to know what Alexander the Great was so great it was because he saw how effective the hoplite way of warfare was against unarmoured foes, and large empires cannot afford to armour their soldiers, and he had a small army. Thus, instead of practicing middle eastern belly dancing (honestly I wish more women liked this shit) we have a democracy. Because their (Macedonian) empire could afford to equip ten thousand men with effective armour and had the sense to give them long ass spears. This negates the cavalry of the other ancient empire and the armour made their pathertic infantry useless. There is a saying, desertion is more destructive to an army than any defeat. So if everyone of your “men of the line” troops runs away from ccertain death, all you have left to fight these determined Hellenistic (not greek) invaders is your shocks troop unit. These units are usually the last unit engaged in batte, and are completely unused to long engagements in their heavy armour. Thus, the Greeks steamrolled the Eastern civilizations until those same civizations (Pontus, Armenia, Selucia) adopted heavy armour, discipline, and professional soldiering as the basis of a successful military. Thus, what is not known as Greek culture but Hellenistic culture flourished, while Greece became a pathetic backwater alternatively conquered by Macedon, Epirus, Rome, Bulgars, Slavs, Muslims, and then independence.

So far I have spent more tie on the subject, I have investigated and illuminated those who don’t know, while those who have been offended have attempted to eliminate my contributions without elaborating on the discussion. I know my shit, you should be thankful I am giving you so much background, as I am sure many others who have not commented (and need not comment in support) are thankful for. regurgitate I do, and I do it better than almost anyone. Without regurgitation you would still assume Alexander the Great was Greek, the Greeks were all olympic athletes, they ate meat (there is so much anthropological evidence that they couldn’t it isn’t funny)…

AND SPARTA WAS NOT A DEMOCRACY but instead a system in which their were two knogs elected, one to engage in military affairs abroad and the other to engage in military affairs against the helot slaves.

[quote]joutmez wrote:
Wow tough guy can get big on the internet. I don’t like your attitude brah. All you’ve demonstrated is that you can regurgitate bits and pieces of information you’ve read about. I can go find a bunch of sources stating the opposite of what your claiming(not that I am going to do this). You have a condescending douche bag way of posting which is why I think you should stop. Your not the first person to go to college. Plus I hardly see the relevance between your posts and ancient Greek training. Please don’t take this as an invitation to show me how the two are connected. Haha by the way how the fuck am I gonna know I don’t like what you wrote until I read it.

[quote]Kanada wrote:

[quote]joutmez wrote:
Why don’t you just stop posting.

I will admit you rhetorically got me on the “how do I know what I like till I read” comment. touche. I ask that you accept my superior history knowledge in this area (and most) as I am not someone you want to debate about history. You will be embarrassed if you think you are the best, but if you stop telling me I wrong you may come to realize I actually am way right.

However, if you think athletics and warfare/societal values and tendencies is irrelevant to this discussion you have made yourself clearly ignorant to useful examination of history

GO fuck yourself, don’t read what you don’t like. This thread is only relevant because I have made it so. Believe whatever you want, but at least I know a thing or two about this.[/quote]
[/quote]

I read your post, and I respect your knowledge in many ways, but like I said, history is not only facts, and like I said earlier, Ancient Greeks impact on athletics/etc. was bigger than all the other you mentionened/and asia. I will exemplify later, dont have the time now for such a post.
Im curius if we can come to an compromiss, i doubt.

I meant the democracy in athens, not in sparta.