T Nation

Anavar Kicked In, Erection Checked Out

Hi All,

Doc put me on the following regime to help with retaining muscle while losing fat after I told him I want to get on an aggressive fat loss regime:

200mg/week TRT - injection every 3.5 days

Lipo-C Injection each day

B12 Injection once per week

Anavar 25mg - approved for 14 weeks total

Anastrozole - 0.125mg 4 times per week

Long story short - my E2 was high (80’s) and erections were effected BEFORE I started this regime.

Then I picked up on the AI (4 times per week) and erection issues went away.

Now with the Anavar, I’m starting to notice softer erections, harder to maintain etc - is this from Anavar lowering SHBG and causing more conversion from T to E2?

If yes - do I add in a bit more AI and see how it goes?

No, I do not have a recent blood test after starting Anavar (been 3 weeks only).

You added a bunch of stuff all at once, and you are wondering what caused the issue. The AI could have made erections better for a bit, then caused E2 to go a bit to low, and caused the issues. Anavar is not great for erections in many men. It could be one of these thing, none of these things, both of these things.

I think you should probably get E2 checked in blood work.

I wouldn’t do this, you are guessing at this point. 0.5 mg of adex is a fairly strong dose for 200 mg of test. Your best course of action is blood work.

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I started Anavar 4 weeks ago, with my TRT (140mg/week), 25mg Var daily. Didn’t notice any erection issues during the first 3 weeks, but starting a few days ago noticed libido isn’t what it was before starting. I had heard this would happen, but I still don’t understand exactly why. However, strength and muscle gain/fat loss has been so good I’m just going to put up with it for another 3 weeks (I only get it for 6 weeks at a time).

I would imagine that your AI is affecting libido, try stopping that first and see if you feel better. Like the other guy said, you’ve got like 5 things in the mix so it’s hard to pin it down, so you need to start eliminating items and seeing how it affects you.

First part is correct (SHBG down), 2nd part wrong.

See this thread and post below in particular if you’d like to understand some theory and practical results:

You are taking oxandrolone, which will crush your SHBG (most likely down to single digits within a few days), along with potent AI. Without AI, dropping SHBG will lower your total T (perhaps you stay even on Free T) but now there’s less T to aromatize. That’s why many will see reduction in E2 levels upon adding oxandrolone to their TRT program (with no AI).

With AI, you may now have crushed your estrogen. Guess what also reduces SHBG…AI. So now you’ve really entered no man’s land and most likely markedly reduced your estrogen level. Go measure your T/SHBG/E2 levels right now. What are they?

Also, oxandrolone may significantly reduce your HDL while you have at the same time crashed your estrogen. It’s like a cocktail designed to accelerate heart disease.

This protocol is a disaster if you care about your health. You don’t need drugs to get to single % bodyfat and it’s great to lose fat first to train your mind without worrying about huge muscles.

If this is your muscle enhancement/body recomposition Doctor then so be it, but this person doesn’t care at all about your long term health.

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Funny story (or not), one doctor who Rx’d oxandrolone for me once specialized in the heart (that’s all I will say). He swore up and down he’d never had a patient who’s HDL dropped while taking oxandrolone. He recommended I try 50 mg/day for 8 weeks and repeat blood work. Ole readalot wasn’t down with that and I did blood work at 4 weeks and sure enough my HDL had dropped by 70% (SHBG, T, etc detailed in the other thread). This is the same doc who was not comfortable with Hct above 50% :-).

It’s truly scary how exposed you are if you know nothing of the pharmocology/metabolism of AAS and blindly follow doctor protocols (especially if they are in a certain state). Check that HDL!

So I looked through that other thread, and I’ll be honest, I didn’t comb through all the linked papers and such.

The conclusion you came up with goes against all the anecdotal information I have heard. Most say SHBG going down will increase Free T and E2. The crux of your argument seems to be that SHBG going down increases clearance rates of the testosterone, but how do we know that the clearance rate increasing is a bigger factor than having less SHBG to bind to?

I have seen blood work results of men with low SHBG taking low TRT doses with super high Free T. I have seen the results from men with high SHBG on larger doses with lower Free T. I guess I am not convinced, but if there is good evidence, I am willing to evaluate it.

see the link, lower SHBG —>lower TOTAL T. Where your free T lands is a function of Total T and SHBG. Competing effects. Make sure you keep track of the terms Total T and Free T. In the example I provided, my SHBG dropped markedly, Total T dropped, and free T was about the same.

Which link. There were quite a few in that other thread.

Damn at least you did the bloodwork yourself. Did you stop it right away? Or lower the dose? My HDL and LDL are good, however HDL is the lowest it can be and still be in range. So I’m curious what my labs will show

The specific post I linked in that thread.

I cover methodically the time course of Total T, SHBG and free T. The variable piece is how much your liver will be affected by the oxandrolone and the AI. My liver very sensitive, others not so much apparently. Where your free T ends up is the combination of Total T and SHBG (which are both are function of the oxandrolone and AI dosage).

Okay so AI, High T, low SHBG…for 14 weeks/3.5 months max - is this going to cause me life long issues? I am eating a VERY clean diet - 100% homemade, organic, protein, fats, veggies, and carbs mainly on workout days. Lot’s of good fruit etc. Lots of cardio. I forgot to mention - he also prescribed CJC/IPA to inject at nights. Fat is coming off fast. This is going to do lifelong damage with my HDL is crushed for 3 months?

Sorry if I am not exactly putting this together. This is the study you are referencing, correct?

No idea. Question is will it only be for 3 months? Folks on here typically cycle more frequently and TRT is the gateway to lots of other stuff. IF you do just one cycle of oxandrolone, then way to go.

You asked why you are potentially having erection issues and I tried to give you some perspective. Even cautioned you on potential heart concern. It’s difficult to communicate on here since I find a lot of times posts are made to try and justify AAS use. Good luck and best wishes.

That is a study I posted but read the post I linked above. The post I wrote detailing my SHBG, Total T and free T before and after 4 weeks of oxandrolone.

Here I will copy it verbatim:

Here’s my approximate T-values on 100 mg/week of Tcyp (50 mg twice weekly):

image

Now add on top of the TRT add the 50 mg/day of oxandrolone. After 4.5 weeks (1 week at 25 mg/day + 3.5 weeks at 50 mg/day):

image

There’s competing effects here.

  1. SHBG drops significantly which speeds up testosterone MCR and reduces total serum testosterone by about 50% (the testosterone is getting secreted more rapidly and the lower SHBG is effectively reducing half-life/binding efficiency).
  2. The lower SHBG results in less of the remaining total serum testosterone being bound vs free. So you can see I ended up with close to the same free T (18.7 ng/dL before vs 17 ng/dL after). Bioavailable went from 438 to 399.

As SHBG gets closer to zero you’ll lose even more ground. So don’t crash your SHBG (just like estradiol) otherwise you risk having no testosterone (and hence lower estradiol) to balance synthetic AAS that you may also be administering. Depending on whether synthetic AAS is aromatizing/5-alpha reduced, this may or may not be a huge deal. For the guys in article above, they had ED effects that may be attributed to significant reduction in SHBG while on exogenous T.

Here’s a hypothetical example on same 100 mg/week of Tcyp but now you’ve taken your SHBG down to 1 (your liver is extremely sensitive to oxandrolone here, let’s say your total T is now 200 ng/dL (I’m just giving example):

Almost all of your serum T is bioavailable (96.8%) but there’s not much around because you’re hyperexcreting it compared to an SHBG of 30 or 50. So another consideration to keep in mind.

I stopped right away. 6 months later (see even I couldn’t stay away) I tried 15 mg/d for 4 weeks. Again, about 60% reduction in HDL. Either I have the worst genes for AAS or my safety margin is too high. Either way, I have retired from brief provocative trials of synthetic AAS for therapeutic benefit.

So, I have heard frequent injection for low SHBG to address clearing quickly. Now I didn’t see in the study how often they were administering Test. That could be an important variable for the end Free T values. Additionally, is it possible that the anavar itself (could be that the VAR and SHBG together caused faster clearance) had an impact on clearance times? It seems like the body might clear out testosterone faster with a higher total androgen level? Not sure on it, but just asking some questions about your conclusion.

Good question. My data was based on injecting 2x/week so the T numbers I shared we’re trough right before the next injection.

2X is pretty good. So you saw your own total testosterone drop from 1054 to 494 ng/dL on the same dose, same dosing schedule, and same blood draw timing?

Sorry if I am asking a lot of questions, I just want to make sure I am justified to believe something. Especially if that thing goes against what I thought I knew.

No worries, thanks for your interest and thirst to challenge/learn.

Here’s the dosing schedule from the paper (quite the use of symbols and footnotes):

You make a very good observation about the dosing frequency of exogeneous Test while taking medication that drops your SHBG. One way to potentially work around this somewhat is increase your dosing frequency (I was only doing 2x/week). Again, depends on how sensitive your liver is.

Well, fingers crossed I don’t take quite the hit to HDL lol. I’ve liked the response so much I can see wanting to run this again and agai