I did a short two weeker as my first cycle awhile back with no PCT (as they said it wasn’t necessary for such a short cycle) and whatever gains I made disappeared quickly. I began to assume that the lack of PCT was the culprit. I was running 50mg oral winnie with 100mg oral anadrol.
This time, I ran the same 50mg oral winnie with 100mg oral anadrol for 6 weeks and made good gains. I finished with a PCT of 20mg nolva during my final week, 20mg nolva plus 100mg clomid for the week after my cycle, and 20mg nolva plus 50mg clomid for one more week. Within a week of finishing the winnie/anadrol cycle all my gains started to disappear… and fast! I lost 80% of the weight I gained within two weeks while still training hard and still eating the same amount of food. My strength is ‘slightly’ down. I don’t get it.
Was my PCT not good enough or is the combo of aas a hard one to keep any gains made?
I also wanted to add the following for anyone who hasn’t already heard about this. I was taking an NSAID (non-steroidal anti inflammatory drug) to heal a tendinitis in my shoulder. It seems that these types of drugs severely affect protein synthesis. Since the whole point of aas is to increase protein synthesis it would be wise to avoid taking these drugs as much as possible during a cycle.
[quote]vin_mancini wrote:
I did a short two weeker as my first cycle awhile back with no PCT (as they said it wasn’t necessary for such a short cycle) and whatever gains I made disappeared quickly. I began to assume that the lack of PCT was the culprit. I was running 50mg oral winnie with 100mg oral anadrol.
This time, I ran the same 50mg oral winnie with 100mg oral anadrol for 6 weeks and made good gains. I finished with a PCT of 20mg nolva during my final week, 20mg nolva plus 100mg clomid for the week after my cycle, and 20mg nolva plus 50mg clomid for one more week. Within a week of finishing the winnie/anadrol cycle all my gains started to disappear… and fast! I lost 80% of the weight I gained within two weeks while still training hard and still eating the same amount of food. My strength is ‘slightly’ down. I don’t get it.
Was my PCT not good enough or is the combo of aas a hard one to keep any gains made?[/quote]
I’m running a similar cycle right now. Did you consider using hcg?
HCG is not used for bodyfat and I don’t know why it would be recommended for your cycle…???
Your losing your gains because anadrol is notorious for that. The winny is not enough to ‘harden’ up or solidify any gains you may be getting from the drol imo. Also you probably thought you gained a lot of muscle when a lot was water retention.
Test added in there would have made a big difference imo…
My opinion from research and minimal experience so far.
So, that said, you are all saying that there is simply no combination of orals that can be taken for whatever amount of time and produce gains that can be maintained? I mean… nothing? Nada?
[quote]vin_mancini wrote:
So, that said, you are all saying that there is simply no combination of orals that can be taken for whatever amount of time and produce gains that can be maintained? I mean… nothing? Nada?[/quote]
Not so at all.
Orals can produce atleast 10-15 pounds over 4-6 weeks, of which all but 2 or so pounds of water retention will be kept.
But 2 weeks isnt long enough for anything, its barely enough time for the orals to even kick in sufficiently.
Its more your cycle length than anything.
Thing is, if your going to run steroids for 6 weeks and shutdown your system that hard, you might as well run test and run for 10-12 weeks and get 30 pounds.
Its just a cost benefit thing.
The reason people tell you you always lose your gains from orals is because people dont run them long enough to keep gains because of liver issues.
Orals for 5 or 6 weeks will produce sustainable gains.
There is no need to jump straight from 4 weeks to 12… even 10.
You could run Test prop for 4+ weeks or i have run cyp for as little as 6 weeks very succesfully. Also deca for 6 week cycles is very effective IMPE.
I agree that if one is going to be shut down then one may as well embrace that fact and use good dosages and length of use to allow gains to actually come.
Not much muscle is actually built in 2 weeks. There are still adaptations to occur for muscle to be built - how much adaptation can be forced in 2 weeks? Not many.
I also believe i remember you (the OP) cannot inject due to phobia. You pass out etc. Well, other than having someone else do it or overcoming this problem - which is necessary IMO if you are to be serious about AAS… you could look into getting a decent source for Anavar and Primobolan. Primo in a large enough dose is a very good product (having only used the injectable i do not have personal experience with the oral, but i hope someone who does will add to this thread - until then…) and can be a good anabolic. I would like to suggest something like the following:
Wk1-8 Primo A 100+mg/d
Wk1-6 Dianabol 30+mg/d
Wk3-8 Anavar 60+mg/d
Shit, with someone who is really unable to use injectables it may be worth finding a Andriol source - it is test after all, albeit expensive as all hell after an effective dose is used regularly.
But in the end i recommend getting over the problem or maybe finding another hobby.
If you only ever use orals i hope you are intending to have regular LFT’s and do not drink/use recreational drugs.
It is important to not confuse weight gain resulting from added glycogen and glycogen-associated water in the muscle (what I call “androgenic water retention”) occurring thanks to androgen use, with gains of contractile protein (which might be called “real” gains.) Or to confuse loss of this sort of weight with loss of muscle.
For example in my case that cause gives me 9 extra pounds when “on” versus “off,” and that isn’t an unusual figure.
So in my case (and many others) dropping 9 lb doesn’t mean losing an ounce of muscle.
Second it is important to not confuse weight gain due to outright bloat with gains in actual muscle, or to assume that scale weight losses actually attributable to loss of bloat are due to muscle loss.
A Winstrol/Anadrol is not that effective for gains anyway, by the way. What you lost, that had been “gained” during the cycle, was probably water weight. Mostly from androgenic water retention, as Winstrol doesn’t cause bloat and in the absence of increased estrogen, neither does Anadrol. (Except it may be the case in the face, but this may be due to the facial muscles being fuller rather than sub-Q water bloat, as a guess.)
Thanks, everyone, for your input. Mr. Roberts, I’m honored ;o)
There was much talk here awhile back about 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off which is what I had originally tried. And, like you knew already, it didn’t help all that much. This time I figured, “Longer cycle with PCT!” and had just hoped for more gains kept. It’s safe to say that I’m slightly better off now compared to before I did the cycle. My muscles are a bit harder, a touch fuller, and bodyfat dropped a touch. I was just trying to figure out if there had been anything else I might have done wrong.
Yes, I know… I know! Needles… I just can’t handle them. I’m trying to do the best I can with what is available to me. I’m just trying to educate myself so that I don’t cause any undue harm to my body and not have anything to show for it ;o)
Brook, I’ll definitely consider trying the cycle you described above in early 2009. I appreciate all your help!
Just a point about the 2on 4off… this is effective not as one cycle but as a year or two of cycles. It allows one to gain as well over a year as one might using 2-3 standard cycles over a year IIRC.
Obviously BR would be better to talk to about this stuff… but that was my understanding of it on the articles over at Meso.
I don’t think it was lack of PCT. This is my oral of choice with maybe some anavar thrown in too, and I’ve kept gains from the 2-week on/off approach. Gains were nothing major though. But that is not to be expected with these compounds.
Edit. Nevermind. I didn’t read carefully. I see you did a 6-weeker with some PCT. I would expect gains from this. Maybe nothing to write home about. But something that’s retained. I don’t know.
Haha, thanks Gerdy… no worries :oP Who knows, maybe one day I’ll come around. I mean, I’m fearless in all other respects of life, it’s crazy… but this needle thing, don’t know what the hell…
[quote]vin_mancini wrote:
Haha, thanks Gerdy… no worries :oP Who knows, maybe one day I’ll come around. I mean, I’m fearless in all other respects of life, it’s crazy… but this needle thing, don’t know what the hell…
Thanks again guys for all your input :o)[/quote]
I had to have a buddy give me my first few injections because I was a needle phobe too, and I was worried I might pass out mid-inject.
I used to pass out occasionally when getting vaccinations for school and such.
You get over it after you get used to it and stop psyching yourself out.
A two week cycle will give marked results only if the dose is high and the stack is one that is effective in both androgen-receptor-mediated and non-androgen-receptor mediated activity.
For example, having personally tried it for experimentation, 150 mg/week oxandrolone is not effective over 2 weeks.
150 mg/week Anadrol is not effective in that scenario either.
75 mg/week oxandrolone plus 75 mg/week Anadrol is effective however. (These being taken in divided doses, several times per day, I forget how many but I’m sure it was at least three and probably four or five.)
Note that that’s over a gram per week.
Almost regardless of compounds chosen, about that much or more is needed if wanting quite substantial results in just 2 weeks.
Piddly doses won’t do it.
The only somewhat lower dose protocol I know of that’s effective in 2 weeks is 50 mg/day TA plus 50 mg/day Dianabol. Even that is 700 mg/week total.
If you count trenbolone as being three times more potent than testosterone is, or anything like it, which is probably fair in terms of androgen-receptor-mediated activity anyway, then that would count as more than a gram per week also, when correcting for the unusually high potency of trenbolone.
And if using injectables they have to be frontloaded for a 2 week cycle to be effective.
So they have to be done right. There are a lot of ways to do them and not get anything much.
I must say that there is no specific reason that I tried the 2 week on / 2 week off cycle other than it was discussed that it could provide slow and solid gains with minimal impact on the liver and no real need for PCT.
Since I only started feeling anything around the last two days I figured it wasn’t for me. That’s why I decided to go longer this time with a proper PCT. I’m just thinking that perhaps the combination of orals I was taking wasn’t best suited for me.
In your opinion, if I was to choose either your proposed 2 week on 2 week off cycle of anavar and anadrol (minimal impact on the body, probably no PCT required (?), but minimal window for gains) or Brook’s longer proposed cycle of Wk1-8 Primo A 100+mg/d, Wk1-6 Dianabol 30+mg/d, Wk3-8 Anavar 60+mg/d (more impact on the body, PCT required, longer window for gains) which would you suggest I try and why?
Its just Test is soo amazing…lol