T Nation

An Example of Medical Lies

I have in front of me a book called “The Pill Book, 8th Edition.” On page 1060 you will find Testosterone. It gives a list of the various Testosterone and Methyltestosterone delivery systems and esters available by prescription which I’ll now list so that the T-mag readers know what is out there: Androderm Transdermal System, Testoderm Transdermal System, Android-10, Android-25, Oreton Methyl, Testred, and Virilon.

Okay, now here is the funny part. On page 1061 under “Cautions and Warnings” it says, “Some athletes have taken testosterone in order to improve performance, but such use is unsafe and ineffective.” Did you read that folks? “UNSAFE AND INEFFECTIVE.” The same lies they are telling about Andro. When they tell such blatant lies, one can only wonder how they expect ANYONE to believe ANYTHING they say!

It’s also odd how the same doses of testosterone that
are horrible when taken by athletes, are perfectly fine
if the idea is to provide male birth control for people
in 3rd World countries… :frowning:

A little bit of hypocrisy there.

Actually, with regard to Andro, these are not lies. It’s pretty well established, both experimentally and anecdotally, that andro supplements (Androsol excluded) are ineffective as ergogenic aids or mass builders. Also, elevations in estragens (estradiol and estrone), as well as alterations in blood lipid profiles have been consistently reported both experimentally and anecdotally. So, up until the release of Androsol, the medical establishment was right, although they had decided on the efficacy and safety of Andro before any data came out. Hopefully, when data starts coming out with regard to the newer generation “andro” supplements no regulatory bodies will get involved. Restraint on the part of both producers and consumers would be recommended in order to prevent the government from stepping in.

First of all, the problem you are talking about is delivery systems, not Andro per se. Second of all, those studies were biased and flawed. They only studied the effects of 1 100mg capsule of Androstenedione daily. Other studies have shown that 300mg per day of Androstenedione will cause a testosterone elevation for several hours. This may not be long enough to cause muscular hypertrophy, but it does not mean that oral Androstenedione is “ineffective.” A dose of oral Androstenedione will cause an androgenic high for several hours which will lead to a more intense workout. Or if you are preparing for a powerlifting contest, or are preparing to beat the shit out of the asshole who felt up your sister, taking a few andro capsules before setting out on your mission would definitely work in your favor.

Anrostenediol is better than Androstenedione in any form because of the estrogen problem with -dione. If you are looking to build mass, you need a delivery system like Androsol. But if you are simply seeking aggression a few hours before an armwrestling or powerlifting competion, then the orals (both DIONE and DIOL) would come in handy.

Bill, you are forgetting that “birth control” (birth prevention) is a feminist cause, and hence is politically correct. On the other hand, getting more masculine and muscular is very UNfeminine, hence it is very politically INCORRECT. I think they are using Nandrolone in Australia to sterilize men. I’m surprised they are doing it in the third world too, because it seems that the powers that be are mostly interested in reducing white birthrates - which, unfortunately, they have accomplished quite successfully. Of course, as a Roman Catholic traditionalist, I am opposed to all forms of birth prevention.

I don’t want to belabor this point, but I will stand with my position. The delivery system is an issue, but in studies where dosage is increased, testosterone is really not elevated to a great extent. This is not to say it is not statistically significant, just that the physiological relevance of a 30 % (at best) elevation in T, is really probably minimal. Along with the small elevation of T, you will get a much larger, and probably physiologically relevant, elevation in E1 and E2. By increasing the amount delivered, whether by dosage or delivery system, you are not going to solve this problem. Now most of this debate relates to androstenedione, which most medical professionals consider to be “andro”. You have to understand that for studies to be performed, completed and information disseminated, takes time. No one foresaw, except Bill Roberts and the people he told, a product that would deliver such supraphysiological doses of a compound with more androgenic/anabolic potency than androstenedione, which can also be converted to T. Again, if we remove Androsol and the putative pro-steroids Biotest and probably others now, are working on from the discussion, “Andro” supplements are useless and potentially harmful to the HPT axis as well as men wishing to keep their gender intact. I appreciate your input, but I don’t think there is really much to debate about on this point.

Steve, again, with regards to oral androstenedione, you are correct if we are talking about building mass. But I’m talking about an androgenic high. Moreover, I don’t believe that the high has anything to do with testosterone. I believe that androstenedione causes the high itself. Androstenedione is an androgen hormone, and androstenediol is an even more potent androgen hormone. Regardless of how they compare to some of the more potent androgens, both androstenedione and androstenediol are both androgenic/anabolic steroid hormones. The same is true of DHEA. The “prohormone” label is merely to avoid the wrath of the FDA.

I think we probably both agree for the most part and we’re just arguing semantics. Yes, all of the androgenic metabolites of cholesterol could be classified as AAS if you wanted to get technical. The problem becomes when 16 year old kids are going to GNC and downing a gram of androstendione per day. The old “More is better” addage. These individuals will likely not get any bigger or perform better as a result of their large “andro” intake, but their HPT axis will be perturbed greatly. So, I will acquiesce to your contention that you get an androgen high, which is of benefit to your workout. But I will also, still contend that from a certain perspective some of the “andro” supplements are both ineffective and potentially harmful. This is not to say I want the FDA or DEA in on the game, quite to the contrary. That is why I hope for restraint with regard to the prohormones that actually do something. Good debate. Take care.

Indeed, Steve. After all, testosterone, the king of androgens, is merely an androgenic metabolite of cholesterol - just like “andro” 4-AD, DHT, etc. Should we say that testosterone is not a “real” steroid because it converts to dihydrotestosterone and estrogen? Does that make testosterone a “prohormone”? The truth is, Steve, we don’t know much about androgens or how they work. Believe it or not, some people believe that testosterone is inactive, and only becomes active when it is converted to dihydrotestosterone. Just type “dihydrotestosterone” in the yahoo search engine, and you’ll find out what I am talking about. The truth is, we don’t really know. It’s all theory. Despite the fact that we think we are so advanced, we are not really too far ahead of the ancient Greeks who thought “black bile” caused insanity. Hell, I’m more apt to believe the “black bile” theory than I am to believe the Freudian theory that insanity is caused by a secret desire to screw your own mother. We don’t know squat about the workings of the human body, and we know even less about the brain and mind in particular. We just know that some drugs work, and some don’t. We know that some delivery systems work better than others. But we don’t really understand the “whys” and “hows.”

Now, regarding 16 year olds, there is a simple solution to that problem. They could make androgen hormones an age restricted product - just like alcohol. Speaking of alcohol: Ethyl Alcohol is a powerful central nervous system depressant. It inhibits the high centers of the brain, the centers of the brain that separate us from the animals. Alcohol is the meanest, most vile drug known to man. It has destroyed marriages, lives, and families. Where is the FDA? Why don’t they “have to do something about alcohol”? Where’s McCaffrey when some drunk is beating the shit out of his wife and kids for no reason? One of my cousins, who was a chronic alcoholic died of Cirrhosis and Hepatitis. He was 35. Where was McCaffrey? Why do people use the term “drugs and alcohol.” Is alcohol not a “real” drug, like andro is not a “real” steroid because it’s legal? Ever watched an alcoholic experience Delerium Tremens?

Sorry for the rant. I’m not opposed to alcohol use or steroid use. All I’m saying is let’s call a spade a spade, and let’s not worry about andro when something like alcohol is out there.