T Nation

An apology for Abu Ghraib

This is an edit… this is an e-mail that was forwarded to me. I did not write this myself. I realy should’ve written that in the first place… sorry.

I am sorry that the last seven times we Americans took up arms and sacrificed the blood of our youth, it was in the defense of Muslims (Bosnia, Kosovo, Gulf War 1, Kuwait, etc.).

I am sorry that no such call for an apology upon the extremists came after 9/11.

I am sorry that all of the murderers on 9/11 were Arabs.

I am sorry that Arabs have to live in squalor under savage dictatorships. I am sorry that their leaders squander their wealth.

I am sorry that their governments breed hate for the US in their religious schools.

I am sorry that Yassir Arafat was kicked out of every Arab country and hijacked the Palestinian “cause.”

I am sorry that no other Arab country will take in or offer more than a token amount of financial help to those same Palestinians.

I am sorry that the USA has to step in and be the biggest financial supporter of poverty stricken Arabs while the insanely wealthy Arabs blame the USA.

I am sorry that our own left wing elite and our media can’t understand any of this.

I am sorry the United Nations scammed the poor people of Iraq out of the “food for oil” money so they could get rich while the common folk suffered.

I am sorry that some Arab governments pay the families of homicide bombers upon their death.

I am sorry that those same bombers are seeking 72 virgins. I can’t seem to find one here on Earth.

I am sorry that the homicide bombers think babies are a legitimate target.

I am sorry that our troops died to free more Arabs.

I am sorry they show so much restraint when their brothers in arms are killed. I am sorry that Muslim extremists have killed more Arabs than any other group.

I am sorry that foreign trained terrorists are trying to seize control of Iraq and return it to a terrorist state.

I am sorry we don’t drop a few dozen “Daisy Cutters” on Fallujah. (Note: a “Daisy Cutter” is a 10,000 lb bomb, used to clear helicopter landing zones)

I am sorry every time terrorists hide they find a convenient “Holy Site”.

I am sorry they didn’t apologize for driving a jet into the World Trade Center that collapsed and severely damaged Saint Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church - one of our Holy Sites.

I am sorry they didn’t apologize for flight 93 and 175, the USS Cole, the embassy bombings, etc.

I am sorry Michael Moore is American; he could feed a medium sized village in Africa.

I am sorry the French are french?

America will get past this latest absurdity. We will punish those responsible because that is what we do. We hang out our dirty laundry for all the world to see. We move on. That’s one of the reasons we are hated so much. We don’t hide this stuff like all those Arab countries that are now demanding an apology.

Deep down inside, when most Americans saw this reported in the news, we were like - so what? We lost hundreds and made fun of a few prisoners. Sure, it was wrong, sure, it dramatically hurts our cause, but until captured we were trying to kill these same prisoners. Now we’re supposed to wring our hands because a few were humiliated? Our compassion is tempered with the vivid memories of our own people killed, mutilated and burnt amongst a joyous crowd of celebrating Fallujans.

If you want an apology from this American, you’re going to have a long wait. You have a better chance of finding those 72 virgins.

I have a hard time apologising for things I don’t believe are wrong.And I dont’t believe the interrogation methods we used in Abu Ghraib were wrong.In my Ethics class last year we very briefly touched on cultural norms and standards. My prof. told us that we are to respect and embrace any cultures laws and values when we enter that culture or country.If that is truly the case, then the interrogation methods in Abu Ghraib are actualy quite mild.If we were to fully embrace their cultural norms,I guess we could start taking off their fingers and slowly make our way to the head.Or maybee get creative with some sulphuric acid.I’m sure if we realy embraced the Iraqi’s culture and interrogation methods we would have something to apologise for. But Abu Ghraib? I don’t think so either. I’m also pretty sure that all that embracing of cultural norms is a bastardisation of what the Prof. was trying to teach. But what the hell, I figured I’d just throw this in withyours and see who Bites.

and Im sorry that this will be read by a number of people who will immediately begin attacking all of the truths in your post because they harbor ill-will for America.

[quote]mindeffer01 wrote:
I have a hard time apologising for things I don’t believe are wrong.And I dont’t believe the interrogation methods we used in Abu Ghraib were wrong.In my Ethics class last year we very briefly touched on cultural norms and standards. My prof. told us that we are to respect and embrace any cultures laws and values when we enter that culture or country.If that is truly the case, then the interrogation methods in Abu Ghraib are actualy quite mild.If we were to fully embrace their cultural norms,I guess we could start taking off their fingers and slowly make our way to the head.Or maybee get creative with some sulphuric acid.I’m sure if we realy embraced the Iraqi’s culture and interrogation methods we would have something to apologise for. But Abu Ghraib? I don’t think so either. I’m also pretty sure that all that embracing of cultural norms is a bastardisation of what the Prof. was trying to teach. But what the hell, I figured I’d just throw this in withyours and see who Bites.[/quote]

It really is sad that you think this way. If you feel that the torturing of people is a fair representation of the Iraqi culture, I feel immense pity for you. Iraq is a place where ancient civilizations, extraordinary culture and great deeds have been occuring for thousands of years. Just because one regime is barbaric, does not mean everybody in the country is. If anything, you are the barbarian here for thinking that what happened in Abu Ghraib was the right thing to do.

If you go into a country and fight the same way the terrorists fight, then you are nothing but a terrorist yourself. What they do might be cheap and unfair, but please do not bring yourself down to their level.

http://http://www.sorryeverybody.com/gallery/1/

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Beware the beast man Bush, for he is the Devil’s pawn. Alone among God’s primates, he kills for sport or lust or greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother’s land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, for he is the harbinger of death.

It’s Still the Economy, War,100,000 Iraq Civilians Slaughtered, Deficit, Recession, Patriot Act, Torture, Lies, No-Bid Contracts, Backdoor Draft, Secret Policy Meetings, Environment, Destruction of the Constitution,Secretive Government,Complete Annullment of Enviromental Laws, Anti-Science Policy, Corporate Cronyism, and Everything Else, stupid!!!

“It scares the shit out of me that there is a single soul in this country that can still be in support of George W. Bush.” Doco

[quote]doco wrote:
http://http://www.sorryeverybody.com/gallery/1/

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Beware the beast man Bush, for he is the Devil’s pawn. Alone among God’s primates, he kills for sport or lust or greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother’s land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, for he is the harbinger of death.

It’s Still the Economy, War,100,000 Iraq Civilians Slaughtered, Deficit, Recession, Patriot Act, Torture, Lies, No-Bid Contracts, Backdoor Draft, Secret Policy Meetings, Environment, Destruction of the Constitution,Secretive Government,Complete Annullment of Enviromental Laws, Anti-Science Policy, Corporate Cronyism, and Everything Else, stupid!!!

“It scares the shit out of me that there is a single soul in this country that can still be in support of George W. Bush.” Doco

[/quote]

They finally let you out of solitary confinement and all you can come up with is this drivel?

How do you type with a straight jacket on? With your NOSE?

By the way a MAJORITY (albeit a small one) still supports Bush. At least you can take solace in the fact that you are out numbered!

Look, of course the world over-reacted to Abu Gharab by attempting to paint all of our troops with that brush. We’re the NY Yankees of world politics (everyone hates the pinstripes). Just because there was an over-reaction does not mean we should have a similar knee-jerk reaction and proclaim that nothing was done wrong and we owe no one an apology. We’re taking care of the problem, and it’s ok to admit that some of our troops did something wrong.

[quote]derek wrote:
I am sorry that no such call for an apology upon the extremists came after 9/11.[/quote]

Now that’s just ridiculous. No one expects an apology from terrorists because they are barbarians. Do you ask a rabid wolf for an apology after he bites? We are not barbarians. We are better than that. We admit and apologize for our mistakes.

Which dictatorships are you refering to? Are you pissed that we support said dictatorships? I am. I would like a harder stance against Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, for example. Of course we need them right now, but then again I personally hate being a hypocrite. International politics is complicated.

The left-wing is just like the right-wing. The majority don’t really understand what’s going on with enough depth to truly have an informed decision.

And what’s with this kiddy “I won’t apologize because he didn’t” shit? Wah wah wah. Take care of your own shit, apologize when you fuck up, and go on with business. I swear if I hear another argument that we shouldn’t do what’s right “because they didn’t first”…

[QOUTE]
It really is sad that you think this way. If you feel that the torturing of people is a fair representation of the Iraqi culture, I feel immense pity for you. Iraq is a place where ancient civilizations, extraordinary culture and great deeds have been occuring for thousands of years. Just because one regime is barbaric, does not mean everybody in the country is. If anything, you are the barbarian here for thinking that what happened in Abu Ghraib was the right thing to do.

If you go into a country and fight the same way the terrorists fight, then you are nothing but a terrorist yourself. What they do might be cheap and unfair, but please do not bring yourself down to their level. [end QUOTE]

We’re not saying that all or even many Iraqi citizens need or deserve to be tortured. Just the ones that were captured while fighting and murdering/beheading the very people that were dying to free them.

If you feel sorrow for evil murderers when they are embarrased, photographed and/or struck while in captivity then you are soft-hearted and I am glad you are not in charge of defending the Iraqis and I’m sure the Iraqi citizenry is glad as well. This is a tough world and we do not need cowards deciding the means of victory.

what can i say, being a muslim and being misrepresented,

i am sorry that most muslim countries dont step in, and help thier muslims naibours when they are being repressed by thier own leaders. instead leaving it to some one else to sort out, then criticisinng the methods used!

sorry :frowning:

[quote]gonzalis wrote:
what can i say, being a muslim and being misrepresented,

i am sorry that most muslim countries dont step in, and help thier muslims naibours when they are being repressed by thier own leaders. instead leaving it to some one else to sort out, then criticisinng the methods used!

sorry :([/quote]

Hey gonzalis. Are you Muslim? I’m glad to see some input from someone that has real insight on the subject. I am Christian. I remember right after 9/11 a friend and I went into a convenience store. The owners were of Arab descent and I assume Muslim. I remember American flags flying all over the store. I also saw a police detail outside the store presumably there was trouble there and I can only conclude it was because of the race of the store owner(s) and 9/11. I remember saying to my friend that I would physically defend these guys with my fists if anyone came in to “rough them up” or harrass them. So I appologize to anyone who suffered unnessesarily because of biggots. (I believe it had happened in various places around the U.S. though it was very rare). I think I’m rambling here but it’s just something that’s been on my mind. I also wanted others to know where I am coming from when I post the things I do. If it matters (and to some it will) I am white, 260 lbs, 6-2" with a shaved head and most people think I am a skinhead. I got some stares one Chanukha when I walked into a Jewish store looking for a gift for my (at the time) Jewish girlfriends’ parents! The employees were impressed that I knew what I was looking for when I went in and asked for it by name. OK NOW I’m rambling!

Two wrongs don’t make a right.

an old one:

Why do American wars always come in twos?

The first one creates terrorists and the second one does too.

I’m sorry you can’t find a virgin. Maybe after you do your head will clear a bit.

Imjudek,
If that culture is so greatand there is so much going on there, how did it get to the piont in time where a leader like Saddam Hussein could seize power? why didn’t all these great people stop him? Where did he recruit his henchmen?If you read closely it doesn’t say anywhere in my writing that I condone the techniques the iraqi interrogators used. But I do condone the ones we use. The methods used by the U.S are comparatively mild.Humiliation is not torture. Unless you are bred in a culture so arrogant and so lacking humility that something like that seems like torture. And If it does, too bad, maybee next time they will abide by the conventions,agreements,and other rules that the rest of the civilised world lives by.

[quote]mindeffer01 wrote:
Imjudek,
If that culture is so greatand there is so much going on there, how did it get to the piont in time where a leader like Saddam Hussein could seize power?[/quote]

Being supported by the most powerful nation on Earth didn’t hurt.

As I said before (and I like to say often) the United States is the Yankees of the world. We will be hated for being the most powerful nation no matter what we do. But that does not mean there are no legitimate gripes against us. Can you imagine being a person oppressed by one of the dictatorships we support and having to hear our “Freedom is on the march!” hubris everyday? I know I would be pissed.

I forwarded this from an e-mail I got… I should’ve wrote that in the first place.

(remember this from the original post?)
America will get past this latest absurdity. We will punish those responsible because that is what we do. We hang out our dirty laundry for all the world to see. We move on. That’s one of the reasons we are hated so much. We don’t hide this stuff like all those Arab countries that are now demanding an apology.

For good and ill, the Iraqi prisoner abuse mess will remain an issue. On the one hand, right thinking Americans will abhor the stupidity of the actions while on the other hand, political glee will take control and fashion this minor event into some modern day My Lai massacre.

Sometimes I think being a nutbar is a prerequisite for lifting weights… :wink:

Vroom,

I actually like it much better when you chime in with smartass one-line comments.
Far less painful than many of your “musing” type posts which tend to go no where.

[quote]chris_666 wrote:
an old one:

Why do American wars always come in twos?

The first one creates terrorists and the second one does too.[/quote]

was that supposed to make sense?

“I’m sorry for, 2004”
-Ruben