T Nation



I have noticed a lot of Bush bashing, or praising recently, and discussion on wether we should be in iraq. I feel this is unpatriotic. Does it really matter if we agree with Bush or not? Does it matter if we support the iraq war, or the war on terrorism. Like it or not, the iraq war isn't being fought by bush. It is being fought by American soldiers, some of the greatest t-men on earth. They are fighting and dying over there.They do this because they were told too. They do it because they love this Country. Whether or not they support the war, wether or not they are rpublican or democrat they are fighting and dying over there for this country, not for bush, not for the republican either. So when you talk trash on the iraqi war, remember, it is not bush's war. It is a war fought for America, by Americans.


Thats right, it isn't being fought by Bush, any Bush, or by any kids of administration officials.



So I'd guess by your logic, the Germans were just being patriotic during WWII. Perhaps if the German people had had the balls to question Hitler's motives, millions wouldn't have lost their lives in WWII.

And no, I'm not comparing Bush to Hitler, that's ridiculous.

Questioning any war is not unpatriotic. In fact, I'd venture to say it is the most patriotic thing you can do. The right to question our leaders actions are precisely why we fought the Revolutionary War and started this country, and it's to protect that right that soldiers are dying to this day.

Since when is questioning war in any way not supporting the soldiers? Wouldn't we be supporting both they and their loved ones better by not having them getting their asses shot off for no clear cut reason?


As a non-american my thoughts may not mean much to you, but shouldn't patriotism come AFTER free thought?

What I am driving at here is that if you agree with whatever your country is doing on the basis that you love your country then your country could invade any country or make any decision, and if you disagree then you are unpatriotic.

I love my Family and if they start doing things that I think is wrong, I won't love them any less but they will know without a doubt that I think they are doing something wrong. And likewise if I don't agree with what my country and government are doing, then I will let them know, or at the very least not support them in doing something I don't agree with. But that doesn't make me any less patriotic.

On one last note that is totally skewed, if your country wanted you to eat mainly soy-based products and get all of your exercise from long distance marathon-style cardio, would you? probably not, because you think for yourself and make your own choices about what is right and what isn't.



This is where the problem starts. We all probably agree that the people over there are giving it their all and we are very appreciative of what they are doing. It is also very clear that the war is being fought by Americans, clearly those are our people over their fighting and dying but then you get to your first clause. It is a war fought for America...

What is America? By America do you mean the American economy? Do you mean the American politicians? This is where people start arguing because many people would argue the war is being fought for an election or economy or something else "American" but how are we as "Americans" really benefitting?


So how does that make it patriotic. I dont want to see americans coming back with missing limbs and in caskets. Why does this make me unpatriotic. theres a diffrence between supporting our troops and supporting the war.


There are some people on here who critique policies and individuals because they believe something's wrong and want to make a change and redirect the country in a better direction, which is in fact very patriotic. There are other people who post not to change anyone's mind or rationally address their perspective, but to start an argument or to show everyone how smart they are via such a respected source of information, the Internet.


Well I am a patriotic american. I supported the decision to go to war in Iraq. I certainly support our guys and gals who are catching hell (and getting killed) over there. However, your logic is flawed. If Bush had american troops crucifying indians in Mexico I would be opposed to it, by your logic that makes me anti american. Our country overall is steered at least by the active political majority. Then people are expressing their political views and participating in the process, something most people are too apathetic to actually do. Disagreeing with the actions of the government is not the same thing as disagreeing with the institutions that constitute america.


Good thing you posted this man. We, as Americans, need to discuss this more and more, especially on this forum...Not enough political discussions.


Okay, off topic, perhaps, but don't forget that soldiers from other countries are in Iraq fighting and dying as well.

Canada didn't go into Iraq, but has a respectable contingent in Afghanistan instead -- helping fight the war on terrorism where it seems to reside. Perhaps some evidence will eventually be found against Iraq?

Anyway, maybe it isn't just an American thing?

This with us or against us thinking is divisive. Thinking so and saying so does not make me anti-American. People that voice their own thoughts and opinions are not being unpatriotic at all.

People who squelch thought and discussion think they are doing the right thing, but may actually be the ones acting un-American. Blind obediance to authority and policy certainly was not how the US was founded.


If people don't agree with why we are at war, at least pray for a swift victory and ending.....Hey Il Cazzo. RLTW




Canada didn't go into Iraq, but has a respectable contingent in Afghanistan instead -- helping fight the war on terrorism where it seems to reside.

"Canada volunteered 10 Battleships, 4 Jet Fighters, and 200 Soldiers to the U.S. anti-terrorism cause, after the exchange rate, that came up to 4 canoes, 2 flying squirrels and 3 canadian mounties."


Here's an idea for all T-Mag readers, whether or not you agree that the U.S. and its allies should be fighting in Iraq: either call 1-800-691-2200 or go to the Web site www.spiritofamerica.net and first check out what they're doing, and then make a contributon. The organization has been set up by an entrepreneur named Jim Hake, and what he does is get things such as medicines, school suplies and toys to the right people in Iraq, and he does it quickly, and gets those supplies to the right places. Everyone would agree that Iraq desrves to be free, and Hake's latest project is to get some TV stations in a province just outside of Baghdad up and running again. They need all kinds of equipment (you can read exactly what on his site, and yes, if you donate by credit card, it's secure). The only conditions that the Marines have put down are 1) no incendiary propaganda, but criticism is OK, and 2) that the Marines be allowed periodically to buy time for PSA's.

Right now most Iraqis are getting Al Jazeera and not much else. And BTW, it turns out that frizbees are a real hit with Iraqi kids. I had a similar experience years ago when I was a volunteer laborer in another third-world country - kids love frizbees.

If anyone wants to check out something in the newspaper before you go to Hake's Web site, see the Wall Street Journal for Friday, the 16th of April of this year, p. A14, the article by Daniel Henninger. BTW, Hake's organization pays for everything, not wanting to wait for charitable contributions that need a sign-off from some high-up muckety-muck in corporate management. Costs and expenses are accounted for on the Site, right sown to the penny.

Here's a chance for some who say they "support the troops" and "support freedom in Iraq" but oppose the war because Bush is warmonger, he really wants to control Iraq's oil and make gazillions for himself and his friends, etc., etc., ad nauseam, to put their money and /or their labor where their mouths are.

I've donated.

How about the rest of you?



Hey, that is the entire canoe fleet... :wink:


Musclerob...that was pretty damn funny.


That is fucking hilarious and very true.

Now to the point of being a patriotic AMERICAN. Anyone has the right to question our government, however, that doesnt give anyone the right to question our troops. Everyone in our country had better support our troops or get the F*** OUT! They are the ones defending our great country and sacrificing their lives.


Glad to see that some people differentiate between criticizing the government and supporting ones soliders. People who put their lives on the line for their country always deserve support. Leaders that abuse that pledge however, IMO should be prosecuted.

Shortdave - Very well summed up.

MB good one about the canoes. You forgot the wrecked subs that we bought from Britain. Ugh, I better not even get started...


Hey Ranger...how's the weather over there you POS. BURN BURN BURN

-When in doubt, burn Rangertab


Just a little thought from a United States Marine Officer Candidate... I feel like it is ok to disagree with our president but you CAN still support the troops at the same time! The idea our troops fight for is the freedom to disagree so go for it. The troops fight because it is their duty. It is Americans duty to vote, speak out, run for office and make the policy that they defend.


Oh yeah and here is a BIG OOOH-RAH to all thoes mighty Marines (and all the other branches) fighting and laying down their lives right now. Semper Fi, do or die!