[quote]thosebananas wrote:
are the americans helping any of the manyu countries in the worls expierenceing famine… no, so do you hate those nations?
[/quote]
Seriously dude, this statement is ridiculous. If anyone actually looked at the dollar value of contributions made to third world countries and in the event of disasters, the US wouldn’t have this stereotype attached to it.
Part of what the IRA did was because they were engaged in a protracted struggle against a much larger enemy. Part of it is that they’re also sadistic and half insane.
Do not be fooled- America doesn’t have a “romantiscized view”. We know what the IRA is, and what they do. What I was saying is that they had noble beginnings, like so many other things, and have deteriorated pretty badly.
You obviously have your opinion about it, which you’re entitled too, but I have mine. It’s neither romantic nor fictionalized, it’s just going to be more pro-Catholic than someone who isn’t Catholic.
I, for one, do not believe in “internment without trial”, be it in Ireland or America or Guantanamo Bay.
You are comparing appples and oranges talking about America. Listen, if Puerto Rico or the Virgin Islands was going through a drought/famine/act of God, the US helps them because they fall under us. They’re a territory of ours, so we are responsible for them.
The British, by taking over and ruling Ireland, were responsible to help them. They reaped rewards from cheap Irish labor, and oppressed Catholics for a long time, and then when push came to shove they let the country starve for six years and caused a million deaths. My family came over during the Famine- it was either leave or starve.
You’re not a Protestant by any chance are you?
[quote]Ruggerlife wrote:
OP,
I’m not sure what you thought this thread would accomplish, but it was a bad idea.
It’s obvious you already have your views and do not intend on changing them. This is the same as other posters. So in the end, both sides will post one-sided opinions and nobody views will be changed.
I’ve never been to Ireland (yet anyway), but I’ve talked to many people from the North, both sides and English people as well. Over here they will all sit down for a pint together and have a laugh, but each has their own views on how events have unfolded.
All I can tell you is not one of these people was lying, but none were telling the “truth” either. [/quote]
Right. All you can do is acknowledge a bias one way or the other, and deal with it.
Though the OP says he is not sectarian, he certainly has his own strong views on what went down. They are opinions, which you cannot prove.
[quote]Ruggerlife wrote:
thosebananas wrote:
are the americans helping any of the manyu countries in the worls expierenceing famine… no, so do you hate those nations?
Seriously dude, this statement is ridiculous. If anyone actually looked at the dollar value of contributions made to third world countries and in the event of disasters, the US wouldn’t have this stereotype attached to it. [/quote]
Yea, that too.
im a catholic… voting for the SDLP.
so im coming from the same side as u fightingirish… yet i completly disagree with most of what ur saying… i dont obviously condone what the british did, and completly condemn anything the IRA, PIRA, CIRA, RIRA and INLA etc have done.
as i said i was recently talking to some american tourists and they said they’d been basically taught in school that the IRA were freedom fighters who were being oppressed by the british, tortured and enslaved etc and apparently all their bombings etc etc where acts of self defence.
i was interested if that was the general american consensus, i seem to be proved wrong.
my statement about bloody sunday and the deadmen being armed comes from my dad who was there taking part in the parade. he says at least 7 of them were armed. and intended to cause damage.
i suppose i am also playing a slight bit of devils advocate.
[quote]Ruggerlife wrote:
I’ve never been to Ireland (yet anyway), but I’ve talked to many people from the North, both sides and English people as well. Over here they will all sit down for a pint together and have a laugh, but each has their own views on how events have unfolded.[/quote]
this statement is only partially true and only in either the country or in “richer” parts of the country. their is still bitter bitter divides in working class parts of the country.
Years ago when people started buying satellite dishes, (the big ones,) there was some confusion because people in Europe could watch American television, and they saw reports of Americans talking of investing in an IRA.
This is actually were I first heard about the Irish Republican Army. (I already knew about Individual Retirement Accounts.)
I also have to say I know little about this, though the last I heard, the IRA was changing their tactics because of the whole global terrorism thing, and that they decided they didn’t want to be associated with it.
But that was one single, short news report, and don’t know what has happened since.
[quote]thosebananas wrote:
Ruggerlife wrote:
I’ve never been to Ireland (yet anyway), but I’ve talked to many people from the North, both sides and English people as well. Over here they will all sit down for a pint together and have a laugh, but each has their own views on how events have unfolded.
this statement is only partially true and only in either the country or in “richer” parts of the country. their is still bitter bitter divides in working class parts of the country.[/quote]
Some were/are from more mixed neighborhoods, but others were from Ardoyne, Short Strand and the Shankle. Some of them just wanted to get away from it all.
But I hear what your saying. Anytime someone “goes home” for awhile and comes back to Canada they end up with a vastly different “update on the situation” as someone that was talking to family in a different area.
Fuck Boston.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Fuck Boston.[/quote]
What did he do?
[quote]thosebananas wrote:
Hope this doesnt get out of hand…
But what is the American laymans view of the whole Northern Ireland situation over the last few decades?
Whos right? Whos wrong? and did any of you send money to Sinn Fein?
Scott[/quote]
Wait, there still is a Northern Ireland situation I thought they solved that problem in Patriot Games.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Fuck Boston.
What did he do? [/quote]
They are the ones that give all the mnoey to the IRA. Make the rest of us look bad.
[quote]thosebananas wrote:
im a catholic… voting for the SDLP.
so im coming from the same side as u fightingirish… yet i completly disagree with most of what ur saying… i dont obviously condone what the british did, and completly condemn anything the IRA, PIRA, CIRA, RIRA and INLA etc have done.
as i said i was recently talking to some american tourists and they said they’d been basically taught in school that the IRA were freedom fighters who were being oppressed by the british, tortured and enslaved etc and apparently all their bombings etc etc where acts of self defence.
i was interested if that was the general american consensus, i seem to be proved wrong.
my statement about bloody sunday and the deadmen being armed comes from my dad who was there taking part in the parade. he says at least 7 of them were armed. and intended to cause damage.
i suppose i am also playing a slight bit of devils advocate.
[/quote]
Oh hey, I don’t care whether your Catholic or Protestant man- either way it’s fine. But in playing devil’s advocate you made yourself sound like more of a Unionist, which threw me off because you said your dad was at Bloody Sunday.
Well, I can see what the tourists are saying. In America, we are taught Anglo-Irish relations with a definite Catholic-favored slant.
I couldn’t say that it’s pro-IRA, but because it’s pro-Irish, some people who don’t really study it might find the two hard to separate.
Honestly, we’re not taught much on the subject- maybe a passing two pages in a history book or something, if that. My opinions and what not were formed by a lot of my own research because I’m interested in it, but I’ll say that most people are probably vaguely aware that Catholics and Protestants have a long standing feud that sometimes erupts in violence. The IRA is likely known as some kind of secret orgnaization paramilitary group run by tall men wearing trench coats and scally caps who spit on the floor every time someone mentions Britain. Odds are is that people’s opinions are more shaped by movies and such then actual research.
And I’m not calling your father a liar, but there are so many varying accounts of that day that no one will truly know what exactly happened. What I do know is that there is never an excuse for soldiers to fire on unarmed crowds. Whether you believe they were armed or not… that’s up to you.
[quote]kansasboy wrote:
thosebananas wrote:
Hope this doesnt get out of hand…
But what is the American laymans view of the whole Northern Ireland situation over the last few decades?
Whos right? Whos wrong? and did any of you send money to Sinn Fein?
Scott
Wait, there still is a Northern Ireland situation I thought they solved that problem in Patriot Games.[/quote]
Haha case in point.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Oh hey, I don’t care whether your Catholic or Protestant man- either way it’s fine. But in playing devil’s advocate you made yourself sound like more of a Unionist, which threw me off because you said your dad was at Bloody Sunday.
Well, I can see what the tourists are saying. In America, we are taught Anglo-Irish relations with a definite Catholic-favored slant.
I couldn’t say that it’s pro-IRA, but because it’s pro-Irish, some people who don’t really study it might find the two hard to separate.
Honestly, we’re not taught much on the subject- maybe a passing two pages in a history book or something, if that. My opinions and what not were formed by a lot of my own research because I’m interested in it, but I’ll say that most people are probably vaguely aware that Catholics and Protestants have a long standing feud that sometimes erupts in violence. The IRA is likely known as some kind of secret orgnaization paramilitary group run by tall men wearing trench coats and scally caps who spit on the floor every time someone mentions Britain. Odds are is that people’s opinions are more shaped by movies and such then actual research.
And I’m not calling your father a liar, but there are so many varying accounts of that day that no one will truly know what exactly happened. What I do know is that there is never an excuse for soldiers to fire on unarmed crowds. Whether you believe they were armed or not… that’s up to you.[/quote]
im beleiveing him…
there was recently a photo unearthed from some archive that shows an armed man within the protestors. if they had not shot at the men how else were they going to stop them?
I would say it has now changed from catholics v protestants to unionists v republicans. i know many catholics who want to stay as pat of the union because of the NHS, all the benefits and the value of the pound.
the view u stated of the IRA is fairly accurate of what they are today, they are still 3 factions in operation but the main one; the provisional ira have apparently been decommisioned.
even if they have i still dont think Sinn Fein should be at the table and i think as they now are we have given in to terroism. the DUP have also completly backpeddled on everything they used to stand for for two reasons imo:
the most recent peace agreement came just before Tony Blair was to retire… i think he put a lot of pressure on Ian Paisley to agree and Tony wanted to be remembered as the man who solved the NI issue, thus adding this to his legacy and helping him in his bid for the job as head of the UN after Kofi Anan stepped down.
Ian Paisley wants a Noble Peace Prize, i beleive he is semi deserving as he has brought a lot more peace to NI, but in the past he did stir a lot of trouble and he had to change his life long held views to succeed. he also set up a very anti catholic church.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I don’t know the answer.
I would love to see a united Ireland, and if I lived there I would likely be a Republican.
Sinn Fein and the IRA had a purpose once. The Rising was done by the IRB and the forerunners of the IRA, and Ireland would be no better than Scotland if not for the patriots of the IRA.
And, to be honest, terrorist organization or not, when the British pushed, the IRA pushed back, so I see their existence as needed, if only for the fact that the British will always be worried about the threat.
Back in the 70s, the British were probably worse than the Irish as far as antagonizing… but when your countries have hated each other for a thousand years, it doesn’t much matter- the blood is just too bad.
I hate that the IRA has turned into this Mafioso type organization, and I wonder at their relevance to the current situation now.
Americans were always supportive of Ireland and the IRA, if for nothing else the heavy population of Irish Catholics and their descendants. We probably have closer ties to that country than any other in the world.
However, none of my money will go to the IRA. My support ends with clapping when the veterans pass by on the parade route on NYC’s St. Patrick’s Day parade. Not to mention donating to them will probably get your name on a list around here.
I hope we’ve moved past violence there. As much as I want a united Ireland, it’s just time to stop the bloodshed, and learn to MAKE your government cooperate and bring peace.[/quote]
I stopped reading after the first paragraph.
You are fucking twat!
And your not Irish
[quote]StephenD wrote:
I stopped reading after the first paragraph.
You are fucking twat!
And your not Irish[/quote]
Good observation tough guy.
I’m American, descended from Irish immigrants. Shitbags like you are the reason that there will never be peace there… you “stop reading” and then whine. You’re no better than any other asshole throwing rocks at soldiers.
LOL you really are clueless.
Guys like you read a few books on the troubles and you think you know more than people that actually live here.
I was in the Armed forces so i think im slightly better than an asshole throwing stones at soldiers.
/thread
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
I’d like to visit Armagh, but only if it was part of Ireland again. I wouldn’t set foot in NI.[/quote]
Why not?
[quote]StephenD wrote:
LOL you really are clueless.
Guys like you read a few books on the troubles and you think you know more than people that actually live here.
I was in the Armed forces so i think im slightly better than an asshole throwing stones at soldiers.
/thread[/quote]
Being a soldier don’t mean you’re intelligent.
Never did I say I knew more than the people living here. He asked for an opinion. I said what I thought.
You don’t like it, you can fucking blow me.