T Nation

Am I Being Realistic?

[quote]John Q. Adequate wrote:
Every time I bulk, I end up looking like shit. And it’s a pain in the ass to lose all the excess bodyfat later. Is it reasonable to expect adding 10 pounds of muscle over the upcoming winter, without losing any deffinition?

I’m talking about 4 months of training, all compound exercises, upping my calories but eating clean (I made a habit of it), doing one or two cycles of Primo, Winny, Anavar, Clen, something to that effect.

Right now, I’m at 175 pounds, at 5’11’’. Take a look at my thread on RMP, it’s quite obvious that I’ll be prioritizing my lower body. But I still want to be lean.

Can it happen? What would you recommend for me to do when it comes to training? Cardio or no? I currently run about 2-3 times a week. What about the juice? I’d really like to avoid the acne and the “mood swings”, which is why I’d prefer something mostly anabolic.[/quote]

If after seven years you only weigh 175lbs at 5’11", you may want to finally accept that your obsession with how lean you are is holding you back.

I am not sure how anyone could think otherwise. The fact that you think you need steroids is ridiculous.

Seven years?

Someone at your stage should be able to gain 10lbs of muscle very quickly. Whether you are willing to eat enough to make that happen is a totally different story.

Professor X nails it on the head cleanly. We’d have to first clear your mind. Then look at your failed bulk attempts. Then we look at your eating when not bulking. Then incremental boosts. Starting with Protein, and Carbs upon waking and Post Workout. Other then that probably a Surge or equivalent like drink during training.

On another whole scale re-evaluation would probably be your training. What you are doing and how it could be bigger faster stronger -

That is going by your pre-requisite of wanting to get bigger while staying lean.

2nd ~ Squats and Deadlifts and other compounds that can tax your CNS increase natural GH etc oh and hawt AbZors.

3rd ~ Learning to Sprint and using Sprint training as your cardio instead for added GH. Muscle maintenance and or building along with fat loss.

Fat has a tendency of losing its grip the more explosive you get and the faster you get…

Just my two cents ~ Bear in mind that I am in agreement with Professor X and RSGZ but I’m trying to address your situation as it relates to you specifically.

I don’t think steroids are necessary where you are now or where you are headed over the next 3-6 months…

I have no idea where and I hesitate to say Bushy though it most likely was him since he is one of the pre-eminent wisdoms of that realm said something along the lines that the usage of steroids is meant as your ACE in the hole after you have maximized your potential?

Then my interpretation is the most effective point is then introducing steroids to in effect boost yourself beyond your absolute limits into uncharted territory. <-- I’ve taken some artistic license please don’t hate me bushy.

Especially if it wasn’t you. I don’t go to the steroid section much except as an educational experience.

@ 175… 5’11 >.< you are no where near the point where you should be pulling the steroids out ~

Sorry if I sound confusing due to my layman speak.

######### key errors #########

Ignoring how much lower body training can help ~

Letting failed clean bulk attempts in the past hold you back from doing some more in depth study and tweaking as to why you failed and how you could succeed.

In the past keeping a close mind ~ 7 years is a long time to take to get to 175. Open your mind and apply yourself into learning more. I think your worries and fears do have some merit based on your failures but you need to overcome your thinking and improve it.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
If after seven years you only weigh 175lbs at 5’11", you may want to finally accept that your obsession with how lean you are is holding you back.

I am not sure how anyone could think otherwise. The fact that you think you need steroids is ridiculous.

Seven years?

Someone at your stage should be able to gain 10lbs of muscle very quickly. Whether you are willing to eat enough to make that happen is a totally different story.[/quote]

Perhaps I should give a clarification. I trained for about 5 years in a row, getting up to 200 lbs. No abs, but no gut either. Just love handles and a squatter’s butt, which I did not like. Then, I had a 3 year pause in my training, during which I got to about 150 lbs of skin and bones, as partying will do to you.

For the last 2 years, I worked my way back up to 175 lbs, lean. That’s 7 years of total training. I wouldn’t classify my need to be lean as an obsession, just a preference. All I’m asking is, can I slowly add lean mass or do you think that bulking is an absolute must?

[quote]John Q. Adequate wrote:
Professor X wrote:
If after seven years you only weigh 175lbs at 5’11", you may want to finally accept that your obsession with how lean you are is holding you back.

I am not sure how anyone could think otherwise. The fact that you think you need steroids is ridiculous.

Seven years?

Someone at your stage should be able to gain 10lbs of muscle very quickly. Whether you are willing to eat enough to make that happen is a totally different story.

Perhaps I should give a clarification. I trained for about 5 years in a row, getting up to 200 lbs. No abs, but no gut either. Just love handles and a squatter’s butt, which I did not like. Then, I had a 3 year pause in my training, during which I got to about 150 lbs of skin and bones, as partying will do to you.

For the last 2 years, I worked my way back up to 175 lbs, lean. That’s 7 years of total training. I wouldn’t classify my need to be lean as an obsession, just a preference. All I’m asking is, can I slowly add lean mass or do you think that bulking is an absolute must?[/quote]

That is a question only your own genetics can answer.

Most of the people who act like everyone is going to gain muscle optimally while also maintaining single digits are barely making any physical progress at all.

I am not sure why that is your top priority over simply gaining the muscle mass. You say you want to gain ten pounds of muscle. Then gain the fucking ten pounds of muscle without going overboard with your food intake.

Why have you made this any more complicated than that?

For someone who claims to have been lifting for years, you seem clueless on what it takes to make progress.

After even 5 years, these are questions you should be ANSWERING FOR OTHER PEOPLE. The fact that you are still trying to figure out how to gain muscle and think steroids are needed to do it means you don’t know much at all.

[quote]kinein wrote:
Professor X nails it on the head cleanly. We’d have to first clear your mind. Then look at your failed bulk attempts. Then we look at your eating when not bulking. Then incremental boosts.

Starting with Protein, and Carbs upon waking and Post Workout. Other then that probably a Surge or equivalent like drink during training.

On another whole scale re-evaluation would probably be your training. What you are doing and how it could be bigger faster stronger -

That is going by your pre-requisite of wanting to get bigger while staying lean.

2nd ~ Squats and Deadlifts and other compounds that can tax your CNS increase natural GH etc oh and hawt AbZors.

3rd ~ Learning to Sprint and using Sprint training as your cardio instead for added GH. Muscle maintenance and or building along with fat loss.

Fat has a tendency of losing its grip the more explosive you get and the faster you get…

Just my two cents ~ Bear in mind that I am in agreement with Professor X and RSGZ but I’m trying to address your situation as it relates to you specifically.

I don’t think steroids are necessary where you are now or where you are headed over the next 3-6 months…

I have no idea where and I hesitate to say Bushy though it most likely was him since he is one of the pre-eminent wisdoms of that realm said something along the lines that the usage of steroids is meant as your ACE in the hole after you have maximized your potential?

Then my interpretation is the most effective point is then introducing steroids to in effect boost yourself beyond your absolute limits into uncharted territory. <-- I’ve taken some artistic license please don’t hate me bushy.

Especially if it wasn’t you. I don’t go to the steroid section much except as an educational experience.

@ 175… 5’11 >.< you are no where near the point where you should be pulling the steroids out ~

Sorry if I sound confusing due to my layman speak.

######### key errors #########

Ignoring how much lower body training can help ~

Letting failed clean bulk attempts in the past hold you back from doing some more in depth study and tweaking as to why you failed and how you could succeed.

In the past keeping a close mind ~ 7 years is a long time to take to get to 175. Open your mind and apply yourself into learning more. I think your worries and fears do have some merit based on your failures but you need to overcome your thinking and improve it. [/quote]

Let’s see if I’m interpreting your words correctly.

  1. Eat more quality food, increasing my calories in increments
  2. Train harder with an accent on lower body and heavy, explosive training
  3. Add sprinting
  4. Accept some bodyfat as unavoidable.

Yes?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
That is a question only your own genetics can answer.

Most of the people who act like everyone is going to gain muscle optimally while also maintaining single digits are barely making any physical progress at all.

I am not sure why that is your top priority over simply gaining the muscle mass. You say you want to gain ten pounds of muscle. Then gain the fucking ten pounds of muscle without going overboard with your food intake.

Why have you made this any more complicated than that?

For someone who claims to have been lifting for years, you seem clueless on what it takes to make progress.

After even 5 years, these are questions you should be ANSWERING FOR OTHER PEOPLE. The fact that you are still trying to figure out how to gain muscle and think steroids are needed to do it means you don’t know much at all.[/quote]

I honestly don’t know how to take your words. You’re telling me that, by now, I should know what to do. I ask for concrete advice, you say that I should just go ahead and make the gains.

The truth is, I have AN IDEA on what to do, it’s just that I’d like to hear people’s opinions. I’ve been lifting for 7 years total, you’ve been doing it for over a decade. I’m sure you can help with your knowledge.

And since when is my bodyweight correlated with the decision whether to take AAS or not? It’s a choice that people make.

[quote]John Q. Adequate wrote:
Professor X wrote:
That is a question only your own genetics can answer.

Most of the people who act like everyone is going to gain muscle optimally while also maintaining single digits are barely making any physical progress at all.

I am not sure why that is your top priority over simply gaining the muscle mass. You say you want to gain ten pounds of muscle. Then gain the fucking ten pounds of muscle without going overboard with your food intake.

Why have you made this any more complicated than that?

For someone who claims to have been lifting for years, you seem clueless on what it takes to make progress.

After even 5 years, these are questions you should be ANSWERING FOR OTHER PEOPLE. The fact that you are still trying to figure out how to gain muscle and think steroids are needed to do it means you don’t know much at all.

I honestly don’t know how to take your words. You’re telling me that, by now, I should know what to do. I ask for concrete advice, you say that I should just go ahead and make the gains.

The truth is, I have AN IDEA on what to do, it’s just that I’d like to hear people’s opinions. I’ve been lifting for 7 years total, you’ve been doing it for over a decade. I’m sure you can help with your knowledge.

And since when is my bodyweight correlated with the decision whether to take AAS or not? It’s a choice that people make. [/quote]

Who cares if it is a choice people make? That doesn’t mean it is an option for each of those people OR you. People do dumb shit. You are using that as something to aspire to?

No one with just “an idea” of how to gain muscle should be trying to inject hormones into their body. How the fuck is it that you don’t have a solid hold on how your body adapts to training and how to build muscle…but you have somehow acquired the knowledge of a physician when it comes to steroid use?

Are you kidding me?

I told you what to do. It is clearly not what you wanted to hear. If you want to gain 10lbs of muscle, then eat enough and lift enough to do it. How lean you remain while doing so will be the result of your progress, your food intake and your own genetics.

Geez, Proffesor X… It’s not like I asked how to perform a bench press correctly. But I do get what you’re saying… Maybe I CAN do it naturally. I’d like nothing better. It’s not as if I have a desire to stick pins in my butt. I’ve just hit a plateau for the last 2 months.

For me, it has always seemed as a means to an end. Do X, and Y will happen. But if you think I can do without the juice, that’s very encouraging. As a matter of fact, it is EXACTLY what I want to hear.

You seem to have it in your mind that you will need gear to reach your goals regardless. Your mind is in the wrong place.

Sure you can lean bulk, but you can make more progress faster by bulking properly. I would think if your going to juice, then you would want to maximize your gains on that as well and bulk properly.

Its really simple.

Is there a reason why you have no vertical pulling in your program (chin-ups, pull-ups, pull-downs etc)?

Regarding the steroid issue: I agree with what others have said already. As you seem rather unsure regarding a basic task like adding 10 pounds through adjustments in training, nutrition and recovery, what makes you think you are capable of successfully and in particular safely using something as complex as AAS? All the more as you don’t even seem close to maxing out your genetic potential.

Don’t take this as a flame, but it doesn’t make much sense to me.

I haven’t looked at your RMP thread, but if your legs are really really bad, 10 lbs would be easy to add in 4 months.

All you would have to do is get on a program like Madcow2’s intermediate Bill Starr 5x5 program, and watch your legs (and squat poundage) blow up. This is, of course, assuming you have never trained legs seriously.

Also make sure you eat enough

[quote]John Q. Adequate wrote:
Is it reasonable to expect adding 10 pounds of muscle over the upcoming winter, without losing any deffinition?

I’m talking about 4 months of training, all compound exercises, upping my calories but eating clean (I made a habit of it), doing one or two cycles of Primo, Winny, Anavar, Clen, something to that effect.

Right now, I’m at 175 pounds, at 5’11’’. Take a look at my thread on RMP, it’s quite obvious that I’ll be prioritizing my lower body. But I still want to be lean.

Can it happen? What would you recommend for me to do when it comes to training? Cardio or no? I currently run about 2-3 times a week. What about the juice? I’d really like to avoid the acne and the “mood swings”, which is why I’d prefer something mostly anabolic.[/quote]

I don’t use and don’t know anything about juice, but hopefully bringing this up will inspire someone who knows what they’re talking about to jump in.

(1) Is he READY for Steroids?
(2) Wouldn’t a simple combo of Test and Dbol be the best for lean
gains? Why use 4 different substances, especially when none
of them are Test? (Relatively cheap and highly effective?)

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to add 8-10 pounds of bodyweight and look relativly the same in 3 months. I’ve done it several times. You could probably do it drug free.

The only way to find out is to try. You bigger than I did at 175, so I’m guessing most of the muscle you’ve built up through lifting has been in the upper body. Since you’ve never really worked your lower body, I would think muscle gains would come there pretty damn quickly.

My training partner and I bench about the same. He’s squatted light before and done Leg Press but for the first time he’s started training it like a man. He recently maxed at 275 and about a little more than a week later he just managed to do 250X13.

I don’t think it’s too far fetched to say that a new max of 315 (a 40 pound increase in VERY little time) is too far off for him.

If you blast your Squat poundage up in time for Christmas, I think you’ll be able to get 7-10 pounds of lean muscle on you. Think about it this way. If you are at 10% bodyfat now, and you gain 9 pounds of muscle and 1 pound of fat then you’ll look just as lean as you do now but you’ll be more jacked.

The 10 pound gain that will mostly be in your legs may not make your current picture look that much different, but who wants to be THIS guy… http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=bF85l-_4OI4

Do you neglect doing cardio when you bulk? Thats what my problem was. I was a FFB so cardio is a must. I gained bodyfat but I didn’t simply get fat. My lifts go up and my training is damn near deadly. I don’t drop em till I’m ready to drop! Miss those days. Thats my advice.

You’ve had a lot of people on here be nice…hell even Professor X started off nice then ended at annoyed. I’ll be blunt and maybe that’ll sink in.

START LIFTING SOME FUCKING WEIGHT!!! The #s you posted are extremely low for your amount of experience. Your legs look really small and I honestly don’t believe you can even squat the 300 that you said you can.

Your diet is fucking pathetic try eating something preferably some red meat and quality fat. The only thing that is even remotely right is that you get a bunch of carbs post workout. However, the carbs come via yogurt which probably doesn’t have shit for protein in it. I’d suggest you cook your eggs just to be on the safe side but if you want them raw then I guess it is ok.

FFS man I’m a relative lifting/dieting noob and you make me feel like a fucking genius. You should probably quit complaining and go read all the beginner stickies.

Hopefully this tough love will snap you out of your trance and you can make some more gains.

[quote]michael2507 wrote:
Is there a reason why you have no vertical pulling in your program (chin-ups, pull-ups, pull-downs etc)?

[/quote]

Well, every week or so, I’ll take up some chinning in a park nearby on one of my off days. I’ll spend an hour doing 10 sets of a certain rep number. Right now, I’m at 10 sets of 7, and my current goal is to get to 10 sets of 10 reps during the hour.

It’s like a hobby. Aside from BBing, I simply enjoy a good chin up session. I’d like to be able to do one-handed chinups in the future.

[quote]Seinix wrote:
I haven’t looked at your RMP thread, but if your legs are really really bad, 10 lbs would be easy to add in 4 months.

All you would have to do is get on a program like Madcow2’s intermediate Bill Starr 5x5 program, and watch your legs (and squat poundage) blow up. This is, of course, assuming you have never trained legs seriously.

Also make sure you eat enough[/quote]

5X5 for legs sounds like a good idea.

[quote]FightingScott wrote:

(1) Is he READY for Steroids?
(2) Wouldn’t a simple combo of Test and Dbol be the best for lean
gains? Why use 4 different substances, especially when none
of them are Test? (Relatively cheap and highly effective?)

[/quote]

  1. Maybe. Probably not.

  2. I don’t like the side effects of the more androgenic compounds. I was thinking something anabolic, mostly, but with what you’ve all said, I’ll just go ahead and do it clean. I mean, 10 pounds, shit… I guess it’s not that much.

[quote]Growing_Boy wrote:
Do you neglect doing cardio when you bulk? Thats what my problem was. I was a FFB so cardio is a must. I gained bodyfat but I didn’t simply get fat. My lifts go up and my training is damn near deadly. I don’t drop em till I’m ready to drop! Miss those days. Thats my advice. [/quote]

Keep the cardio. Gotcha.

[quote]GhorigTheBeefy wrote:
You’ve had a lot of people on here be nice…hell even Professor X started off nice then ended at annoyed. I’ll be blunt and maybe that’ll sink in.

START LIFTING SOME FUCKING WEIGHT!!! The #s you posted are extremely low for your amount of experience. Your legs look really small and I honestly don’t believe you can even squat the 300 that you said you can.

Your diet is fucking pathetic try eating something preferably some red meat and quality fat. The only thing that is even remotely right is that you get a bunch of carbs post workout. However, the carbs come via yogurt which probably doesn’t have shit for protein in it. I’d suggest you cook your eggs just to be on the safe side but if you want them raw then I guess it is ok.

FFS man I’m a relative lifting/dieting noob and you make me feel like a fucking genius. You should probably quit complaining and go read all the beginner stickies.

Hopefully this tough love will snap you out of your trance and you can make some more gains.[/quote]

Oh, I can squat the 300, believe me… Though I’ve spent the entire summer doing 135 for reps, like 20, 30. Right now I’m down to 10-9-8 reps, and I’ll probably lower those to 5, 5 sets total in the squat.

As for lifting more weight, I have these goals in mind. Bench 290, squat 400, deadlift 440. If I gave these the priority in my workouts, do you think it’s viable to lift as much in six months? My bodyweight would have to go up, too.

Thanks for the tough love, lol

Ok let me try to answer your question. You know your body and genetics best. You know how your body partitions it’s food and don’t like way excess calories are deposited into fat pockets you obviously don’t like. Some people bulk and gain very large full muscles and some fat. Others gain mostly fat and less muscle. Some people on this thread need to understand that and stop preaching the cookie cutter approach to building a good physique.

Arnold Schwarzenegger could have told an obviously thinner and less muscular Frank Zane to stop being a pansy and eat BIG to get massive…like him. It never would have worked. Arnold was Arnold because of his genetics and Zane was Zane because of his genetics. The point im making is that everyone is different on how they respond and feel on their diets and training protocols.

Now John, you look like you know what you’re doing and are in good shape. Can you add 10lbs of muscle to your frame while staying as lean as you are now and perhaps get even leaner?

YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES.

Eat clean but enough to feel your muscles full and vascular. Once you see that you’re becoming too puffy ease back on the cals for a day or two. Keep your abs sharp.

You may want to incorporate one refeed day per week followed by a lower calorie day the day after. This will stimulate recovery and your metabolism.

When you train, increase your strength as much as possible and by all means squat and perform dead lifts. Do a variety of rep ranges and compound movements. Always stimulate your muscles but don’t annihilate them. Keep CNS fatigue at bay.

As for adding the more anabolic compounds, if you like them and speed your progress go for it. Primo and Winny is an excellent stack for quality dense gains you may keep for a lifetime. 200mg of primo weekly with 50mg of winny mon-wed-fri has worked wonders for many lifters that prefer to stay ripped and nicely developed while wishing to remain under 200lbs.

Good Luck.