Zap, are you trying to start an argument so you can tell us what you feel about those issues?
We all know the arguments…
I encourage everyone to lay out their lists.
Let’s try not to debate them here.
I think it is very interesting to see how people trully stand when the grandstanding mask is, at least, partially pulled down.
I know I have learned a few things about people from this discussion.
Too often (me included) we get caught up in partisan rhetoric.
I’ve been pleasantly surprised by Kevin and Moriarity.
JeffR
[quote]vroom wrote:
Joe, you don’t know what you are talking about.
So, here is an interesting thread and you have to wade in mixing it up with your brand of tripe… good job.[/quote]
nice how two seconds after I try to stick up for your sorry ass–again–you nail me–again.
I’m beginning to think that not only is Zeb right about everything, but that you truly have no stones.
I tend to agree with JeffR. What do you consider yourself, Jeff?
- Abortion.
Is not a Constitutional matter, nor a federal government matter, and should be handled on a state-by-state basis.
With respect to abortion itself, I believe it should be allowed before the fetus is considered a human, and not allowed afterward under any circumstances save a grave health danger to the mother.
Whether the fetus is human is a moral judgment much more than it is a medical one. Doctors can tell us, with increasing precision, the development level of the fetus, and we can keep them alive earlier and earlier, but how we define what is human and what is not is essentially a moral definition.
- Taxes.
We should have a head tax. Since that will never happen, a flat tax is the most viable alternative, and one I like much better than the sales tax.
- Gun Control.
The 2nd Amendment guarantees the right to bear arms, and not just for members of the state militia. There obviously needs to be some threshold, and I think fully automatic weapons should be on the illegal side of it. However, I think any adult with no violent criminal record should be able to legally own a gun and have a carry permit.
- Iraq War.
Generally pro, particularly for strategic and U.S.-interest reasons, as well as for the long-term stability of the Middle East, and for humanitarian reasons. I don’t know which of those you could remove and still have me supporting it – it would depend on the particulars.
- Bill Clinton
Brilliant politician – master of triangulation. Showed the Dems how to win nationally, should they care to learn.
- George W. Bush.
A whole lot smarter than most people who call him stupid. A good politician, though not quite to Clinton’s or Blair’s levels. Or to Reagan’s. Definitely better than his father though, and of course better than Dole.
Policy-wise he compromises principles far too much for my tastes, but that goes back to his political skills.
- John Kerry
About as smart as Bush over all, but far more pretentious. Not inspiring. Was a bad pick for a candidate - his running mate probably would have done better. But Dean probably would have done worse.
- Iran
Needs to be stopped from obtaining nuclear weapons while the mullahs are still in charge. We should take a carrot/stick approach with them, especially using trade relations as a carrot.
- North Korea
We need to convince China to rein them in. They are about to test a nuke. China controls their access to oil and food.
- Religion
I don’t want a national religion. At the same time, a lot of people have interpreted the Establishment Clause far beyond its original intent. Endorsing religion or religiousness is not the same as establishing a national church and supporting it with a required tax.
MikeTheBear wrote:
“I tend to agree with JeffR. What do you consider yourself, Jeff?”
Hey, Mike. I am a Republican who surely doesn’t fit the party platform word for word. I am angered by the holier-than-thou tone taken by some of the religious members of the party. I think the Republicans should shut the hell up about abortion.
However, I have almost nothing in common with the vast majority of the Democrats. Many of them seem to be totally unfit for any type of meaningful responsibility. Many represent the very worst type of pure politician. I wouldn’t trust the modern democratic party to protect my family from external threats. I don’t trust them to spend my money. I think they are unbelievable hypocritical regarding racial relations. I can’t stand their, “I’m for the working man” while robbing the system blind.
I wanted to let you know that I exempt Joe Lieberman and, just maybe, Obama from this.
Frankly, I am not hopeful that the Democrats have learned anything useful from their defeats.
JeffR
- Abortion.
I’ll admit I am a flip flopper on this issue. I think if it’s done via the day after pill, it’s probably ok, but later than that I am very uncomfortable with the whole thing. I mean it’s illegal to commit suicide, so why is abortion any better? There would also be many other problems to arise if it was made illegal, but i’m still on the fence as to if those problems outweigh the moral one of killing.
- Taxes.
I love the Idea of a flat tax with at least a 30k gap, also I feel a luxury tax would be good but general items people need to get by should not be taxed. Cars under 20k, homes under 100k, food and clothing and gas should all be non taxable items.
- Gun Control.
I am pro gun ownership even though I currently do not own a gun. There are 2 shotguns in my house though and I am probably going to get a pistol permit in the near future. I guess my mentality is a little old school, but I would rather take a bullet or two defending my life and my loved ones than to let something bad happen to them. I also think that if more people stood up to what amounts to grown up bullys with no care for others (note most still do care about what happens to themselves) Then they would find it much harder to eek out thier existance by means of being violent.
- Iraq War.
I wrote a several paragraph dissertaion on my views of this about 2 days ago. Yes I think we were right to go. I think it was for 100’s of reasons not the one big WMD that everyone is so concerned about. Yes it played a major role, but ultimately it was the continued deception of saddams regime that pulled the trigger.
- Bill Clinton
I guess I never thought he was that special, I actually thought it was pretty funny that he got busted for getting head. Other than that he basically was the president for a stretch of time when Pee Wee Herman could have been a great president.
- George W. Bush
He is definately not an ultra charismatic, polished politician. I guess thats what I kinda have been looking for though. Me and my buddies always talk about how we want someone from outside the political system to be the president, someone with the intelligence and ability to but not all the baggage these pros come with. I feel he is a pretty honest guy and isn’t too afraid to do what he thinks is right.
- John Kerry
The opposite of bush, built to be a politician, and I don’t trust his fake smile as far as I can throw him.
- Iran
I ran is going to be very tricky to deal with. With any luck, our efforts in iraq will cause the iran people to crave thier own freedom and the gov’t will implode from within. Other than that, we need to keep a close watch on them.
- North Korea
This worries me, but seriously, this is more Russia’s and Chinas problem. I think we should have them deal with it as well. This will give them credibility as world powers and it will also take some pressure off our own resources. The only major problem is Kim selling nukes to terrorists. If this happens shit will most definately hit the fan. This single event could be the most dangerous out of all the current possibilities out there. I am not sure how we can prevent this at this point.
- Religion
I believe in spirits and other dimensions of existance and all sorts of good stuff. I do not particularly follow any mainstream religions but all have some good ideas.
V
[quote]vroom wrote:
Zap, are you trying to start an argument so you can tell us what you feel about those issues?
We all know the arguments…[/quote]
No, I am trying to answer his question where he is on the political spectrum.
Most of his points indicate he is somewhere in the middle, however how he answers this could move him significantly to the left.
Is there a point in there? If I had no stones I wouldn’t be pissing people off so often…
Anyhow, you need to desensitize yourself Jow.
You’ve climbed so far up powders ass we can look in his eyes and see you looking out. Someone says one peep about you, its a criminal offense.
Why don’t you try contributing something instead of being a joke all the time. Be a joke some of the time, not all of the time.
Vroom - I think I finally have a way of describing, or at least relaying what it feels like to read your political posts.
Have you ever had a math class, or CS class that was taught by an Asian of some sort? More specifically, an Asian that JUST got off the boat the day before class starts?
I get mad at you, but it’s not because of what you say. It’s because I don’t know what it is you said. Kind of like the Asian math professor - I get mad at him as well, but it’s not because I disagree with what he says. I don’t know what the hell he’s saying.
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Abortion.
I’m all for the morning after pill. After the kid has attached to the mother, I think it’s pretty much murder. -
Taxes.
I’m starting to get on board with the Fair Tax. A national sales tax with a monthly refund for the basics.
- Gun Control.
I am pro guns, even though I don’t own any right know. I probably won’t have them in my home until my kids are older. I think any robbery, murder, assault committed with a gun should receive life in prison.
- Iraq War.
Should have finished him during the first Gulf War, should have gone in during the 90s, glad we finally did go in.
- Bill Clinton
Great politician, shitty human being. Should spend eternity locked in a room with Nixon. I think a lot of the Iraq problems were his. I think sending N Korea nuclear technology was unforgivable. I still have a lot of Waco issues.
- George W. Bush
Has moved too much to the middle for my tastes. I’m disappointed he hasn’t stood his ground more. Had hoped he would have been more like Reagan. I’m all for social security reform, and I think No Child Left Behind is one of the most important things in education since desegregation.
- John Kerry
Elitist, arrogant prick.
- Iran
Hopefully the after Iraq takes hold, the people rise up in Iran and demand democracy. I trust Israel will not let Iran go nuclear.
- North Korea
Scary. Don’t know how it should be handled. Definitely can’t let them start selling nukes to terrorists. Ideally, China would get them in line.
- Religion
Pretty much Deist. Have no problem with the 10 Commandments being used in schools/courts as historical documents. Don’t believe the Constitution grants a freedom FROM religion.
[quote]vroom wrote:
I’m beginning to think that not only is Zeb right about everything, but that you truly have no stones.
Is there a point in there? If I had no stones I wouldn’t be pissing people off so often…
Anyhow, you need to desensitize yourself Jow.
You’ve climbed so far up powders ass we can look in his eyes and see you looking out. Someone says one peep about you, its a criminal offense.
Why don’t you try contributing something instead of being a joke all the time. Be a joke some of the time, not all of the time.[/quote]
vroom, I know a few women that obviously have no stones, and they piss a lot of people off.
The world needs to laugh more. Hell, you need to laugh more. Your ass is so tight I bet you squeak when you walk.
I mean…I can understand it’s not easy being perfect (I have a friend who tells me), but you take it to an unhealthy extreme.
And even were I to contribute something that was meaningful in your eyes–you’d only have some smart ass crap to say about it.
So why not just make myself and some other people laugh once in a while? This is a bodybuilding web site, not the fucking World Council on Being Better Humans, after all.
OK, I’ll take a crack at these.
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Abortion.
I’m Catholic, so I’m not a supporter of abortion. To me, though, if I felt it was only an issue about choice (i.e. I did not think this was an actual human life), then it would be an easy one for me. However, I think that’s where things get screwy - one side will talk about choice and the other about life, but they are 2 entirely different discussions. I think BB’s point is a good one, though - that it will need to be a state-by-state decision, especially since it is such a completely divisive issue. Honestly, where can you find any compromise on this issue? -
Taxes.
Necessary evil, but would like a greatly simplified tax code. A flat tax with a mild amount of progressive steps (at most).
- Gun Control.
Never owned one, but definitely feel it is within the right of people to own one. I think that the 2nd Amendment is not a blanket endorsement to own any kind of gun you want and buy one at any time you want (and I think the NRA is very concerned about any directly on-point case that would get to the heart of this issue).
- Iraq War.
Supported it at the start and support it now. Certainly not the most flawlessly executed campaign from an overall strategy standpoint, but I think it was a critically important stand to take in the Middle East. I don’t think we were purposefully misled. I also think the war (and the result elections) were an important catalyst for democratic change in the region (although the death of Arafat definitely was an important factor as well).
- Bill Clinton
Brilliant guy and consummate politician, but always made me incredibly uncomfortable too. Whenever he had to speak on any big issue, I always felt like he was using “lawyer-speak” so that he could wriggle his way out of any uncomfortable scenarios in the future if public opinion swayed. And the Lewinsky thing always bothered me because I felt it (further) tarnished the office of the Presidency.
- George W. Bush
Not my favorite Republican leader of all time, but I admire the fact that he sticks to his guns and his principles. You may not agree with him on those stands, but you at least know what those stands are. I think history will show him to be a good president and the “idiot” label to be just an easy but inappropriate label. I don’t think he is dumb - I think his problem is that he is not terribly good at speaking contemporaneously.
- John Kerry
While I don’t think the country would have collapsed into utter ruin if he were elected (seriously, this country is 100X more stable than some people give it credit for), I also thought he was a weak candidate. It’s weird because he is a smart guy, but I could never figure out what the heck his stand was on anything. That was frustrating to me. He definitely had an air of arrogance about him that drove me nuts and I thought he pandered to European interests in the election a lot more than any candidate for the highest elected office in the U.S. really should.
- Iran
A country we should probably take a much firmer stand with given their interests in enriching their uranium. The hopeful side of me wants to believe that the pro-democracy groups in the country (which have been active and gaining steam for several years) will make true inroads in eroding the political power of the mullahs.
- North Korea
I picture them as a whining child, albeit one playing with a very big, very dangerous gun. I agree that China has to become much more involved and they probably have the greatest sway with them. I think a lot of the rhetoric from NK is an attempt to get the U.S. to pay them more attention and treat them like they are some kind of equal to us (which they are not). I also feel that NK is a horribly sad story as well as they are so heavily militarized while millions of its own citizens starve to death. Military action here is probably not an option since I think it would provoke some kind of all-out attack (possibly nuclear) against South Korea with devastating consequences.
- Religion
I keep finding myself agreeing with BB. I think people have gone off the deep end with their reading of the Establishment Clause. We do not have to be a completely secular society, but the point is that government should not be actively advocating any one belief system over another (and yes, secularism is a belief system too). Basically, live and let live.
Kuz
Jeff, yeah, I’ve always considered myself a “moderate Republican,” but lately the party has pissed me off for the exact reasons you mentioned - their holier than thou attitude. I now call myself a libertarian I was beginning to wonder what the hell happened to all the moderates - I guess they’re all hiding behind their computers and posting here.
I was having this discussion with some friends the other day and we agreed that the reason you don’t see many moderates is because it’s tough to be a “passionate moderate.” I guess the moderate rallying cry can be “just leave us the hell alone.”
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Abortion.
go for it no need for unwanted babies -
Taxes.
the rich should be taxed more while the poor the very least
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Gun Control.
you can make all the gun control laws you want , you can put limits on owning one but that doesn’t do a damn thing in the streets with unregistard, or stolen guns -
Iraq War.
NO , i don’t care about iraqi freedom , isn’t this the idea that we are being sold on now ? -
Bill Clinton
worthless plutocrat
- George W. Bush
plutocrat
- John Kerry
plutocrat
- Iran
they hate us for our freedom
- North Korea
the little korean guy isn’t a threat , he just has long-range missles that could hit L.A.
- Religion
stop using my god and saver as a tool for your political gain!
- Sudan
hey they’er african who really gives a shit ? who cares if a genocide is going on…
Blah blah blah. Cry me a river Joe. Shoot for balance you big hypocritical baby.
All slapstick all the time gets a bit tiring. However, if you aspire to be a clown, with powda as your fall guy, you are on the right road. I would not want to stand in your way.
Maybe every now and then when the men are trying to having a serious conversation you could drink a big mug of shut the fuck up?
Yeah, yeah, I know. I hate giving “advice”, because then I have to look and see how much of it applies to me.
[quote]vroom wrote:
The world needs to laugh more. Hell, you need to laugh more. Your ass is so tight I bet you squeak when you walk.
Blah blah blah. Cry me a river Joe. Shoot for balance you big hypocritical baby.
All slapstick all the time gets a bit tiring. However, if you aspire to be a clown, with powda as your fall guy, you are on the right road. I would not want to stand in your way.
Maybe every now and then when the men are trying to having a serious conversation you could drink a big mug of shut the fuck up?
Yeah, yeah, I know. I hate giving “advice”, because then I have to look and see how much of it applies to me.[/quote]
Just as long as you know I still love you…
that’s pretty funny about “when we men are having a conversation…”
So, would that be when ZEB’s hopping up and down yelling “vroom’s a liberal, vroom’s a liberal”, when rainjack is saying “show me where I said that. I beg you. I dare you”, when JeffR is saying…well, whatever it is Jeff says…when Cream says “POX sux”, or Elk says “if you had any understanding at all…”
or when you say “we men are talking”?
I mean, have you gone back and read some of the shit we all say during these little dust-ups?
I don’t care–I’m not crying about your treatment of me, I’m just curious how I became the only hypocrite in the house.
I’m not sure how trying to figure out shit like that became crying or whining or whatever the hell term you guys want to use to try and discredit me.
I’m sorry you don’t like humor.
I guess it has something to do with being Canadian.
Although Red Green’s a pretty funny guy.
(shrugging shoulders.)
[quote]vroom wrote:
Yeah, yeah, I know. I hate giving “advice”, because then I have to look and see how much of it applies to me.[/quote]
maybe you should just stop trying to control everyone else?
- Abortion.
I personnally don’t believe in abortion, but I believe even more in not imposing my beliefs and morals on others. I think in many cases abortion is one alternative to an unwanted, abused, neglected baby. It would never be a consideration for my wife and I, but if the pregnancy were the result of her being raped, or if her life was endangered by the pregnancy, I would be all for it.
- Taxes
I think the current tax code is overly complicated and regressive. I’d be interested in a flat tax, with a reasonable exclusion. Not sure what level that exclusion should be, or what to do about deducting things like mortgage interest. How would eliminating that deduction effect the housing market?
- Gun Control.
I’m a gun owner, but I think the gun lobby goes way overboard on opposition to any type of control. It wouldn’t bother me to register my firearms if it reallistically helped to reduce firearm crimes. Way too many people getting shot over stupid shit, and way too many stupid people own guns. Why should a firearm be easier to get than a drivers license?
- Iraq War.
I would have been more supportive if I hadn’t been lied to about the reasons. Maybe they really did believe there were WMDs, maybe not. Maybe dubya just wanted to finish what daddy started, and settle a personal score. Maybe they figured they could lie they’re way out of it after the fact. Seems to be working so far.
- Bill Clinton
Met him during the 92 campaign, and he was the most charismatic person I’ve ever met, before or since. Great speaker and polititian. I wish he hadn’t lied about the blow job, but at the same time I still think it’s a question that should never have been asked in the first place. Chicken or egg.
- George W. Bush.
Dumbass. Liar. Weasel. I could overlook dumbass, there are plenty of smart people around him. I could even overlook liar to an extent and in some circumstances. It’s the weasel part that gets to me the most, though.
- John Kerry
Bad choice. All the dems had to do was stand up a candidate that gave people a viable choice vs Bush. Kerry wasn’t that man, and they blew it.
- Iran
Do whatever it takes, short of military intervention, to overthrow the mullahs and help the people install a freely elected democratic government.
- North Korea
Keep pushing China to help resolve this.
- Religion
I’m not a Christian or an Atheist or an anti-Christian or a Jew or a Muslim. I was raised Catholic but left the church when I turned 16, which is when my parents agreed to let me make that choice for myself. I don’t like organized religion in any form. I think it’s really scary how many people in this country would support a “national religion”, provided it was Christian.
The deano manifesto:
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Abortion. For a woman’s right to choose in the first trimester and after counselling. In rape cases, at any time.
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I believe in a flat tax. This encourages those who drive the economy.
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I am for gun control. Personal possession of handguns and automatic weapons should be outlawed. Apart from hunters and farmers, no-one needs a gun.
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The Iraq war. A war started on false pretenses. The US should only respond to direct aggression. Afghanistan was justified. Iraq was not. And I don’t believe in wasting American or British or other allied lives to help the Iraqis. A lot more could be said on this topic and already has.
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Bill Clinton. Charismatic and intelligent man. Had a few personal flaws. A good leader.
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Bush. Overly gung-ho man of ordinary ability. Poor speaker. Has alienated most of the world.
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Kerry. Probably too intelligent for most Americans and certainly not openly religious enough to get their votes. But better than the alternative.
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Iran. Leave them alone unless it can be proven they have attacked, or are going to attack, the US. Then take all non-nuclear measures.
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North Korea. As above.
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Religion.
Are you fucking kidding? It’s the 21st Century. Religion is a private matter ONLY.