T Nation

Am I a Lunatic Liberal?

After a discussion with JeffR through PM on whether I was a moderate Dem or an ultra-liberal lunatic, JeffR suggested we let the forum decide. We put together a list of 10 topics that we both gave our positions on honestly. Our positions are below.

Moriarty:

  1. Abortion.

I believe that a woman should have a right to have abortions in the 1st trimester unconditionally, in the 2nd tri at doc’s discretion, in 3rd-tri only when the mother’s life is at risk. Abortion is NOT a right afforded by the constitution.

  1. Taxes.

Taxation should be progressive and simplified. I support a flat tax with the sole exemption of the first 20-30k (arbitrary value, but should be pretty large) of one’s income.

  1. Gun Control.

I am against banning guns. Committing crimes with guns is already illegal, no reason to make the devices illegal. I support much stricter enforcement of existing laws and possibly mandatory gun training/testing for ownership.

  1. Iraq War.

The only stable solution I see to islamic extremism is to remove the conditions in which it thrives. I support removing those conditions by aggressively promoting democracy in the middle east, by force if necessary. However that doesn’t excuse the shameless manipulation and the demonstrated incompetence of some portions of the operation.

  1. Bill Clinton

Brilliant political mind who shamelessly set back the Democratic party a decade. My favorite president of the last 30 years.

  1. George W. Bush.

Poor leader. Poor domestic policy. Doesn’t think for himself. Not nearly the worst president we’ve ever had, but leaves me longing for something better.

  1. John Kerry

Intelligent guy, poor leader.

  1. Iran

See my answer to Iraq war.

  1. North Korea

I’m honestly not knowledgeable enough to comment on NK, although I support military action with the consent and support of the major asian nations.

  1. Religion

I am strongly against the US adopting a national religion, and I strongly oppose people being forced to say prayers or praise “God” in settings such as public schools, goverment buildings, etc…

JeffR:

  1. Abortion.

I believe in a woman’s right to choose. However, I do not think I could have done it.

  1. Taxes.

I want a flat tax. Period.

  1. Gun Control.

In theory, I agree with gun control. In practice, it’s like communism-not feasible.

  1. Iraq War.

Deterrance. Deterrance. Deterrance. The supporters of this war have learned from history. See the response of Libya, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia.

  1. Bill Clinton

Gifted pure politico. Shameless to a fault.

  1. George W. Bush.

Far underrated as a leader. Strong moral compass. Rarity in politics today. Should use his personal charm on the media.

  1. John Kerry

Ambitious to a fault. Very opportunistic. Not without political talent. Flip flopper.

  1. Iran

Frightening situation. Needs international consenus and true pressure. Opportunity to heal some rifts from the Iraq War.

  1. North Korea

China, China, China. George has played this one nearly perfectly. No direct talks. Everyone in the area needs to be involved. Remove Kim Jung Il’s “it’s us against the evil American” rallying cry.

  1. Religion

If the answer is so damn obvious, why all the hysterics? Leave me to my beliefs.

you no luny lib. i could even see you voting conservatively.

I say a moderate, rationale, intelligent, guy.

Hey, Mor.

Don’t agree with everything you said.

However, the lunatic comment was probably unjustified.

I would like to amend my earlier comment and call you an interesting liberal!!!

JeffR

Left-wing wacko.

j/k

I think my positions are pretty moderate dem, and pretty damn clear, but apparently there was some issue I didn’t kiss Bush’s ass on so I’m an ultra-liberal according to RJ, JeffR, and the rest of the labelling crew. I’d add that you can find posts from me on this forum that back up nearly all of these stances on the issues.

The only issue, off the top of my head, that I would say I take a very liberal stance on is gay marriage.

I’d like to see Vroom fill out this form, only because his views have never really seemed ultra-liberal to me, but he’s considered to be a lunatic on this forum.

[quote]Moriarty wrote:
I think my positions are pretty moderate dem, and pretty damn clear, but apparently there was some issue I didn’t kiss Bush’s ass on so I’m an ultra-liberal according to RJ, JeffR, and the rest of the labelling crew. I’d add that you can find posts from me on this forum that back up nearly all of these stances on the issues.
[/quote]

When have I labeled you as such? Please cite me saying that you are an ultra-liberal. I don’t think you can.

But it’s okay for you to use labels, huh?

Tell me how that works again.

Aren’t all libs lunatics??
Just kidding…

[quote]Moriarty wrote:
After a discussion with JeffR through PM on whether I was a moderate Dem or an ultra-liberal lunatic, JeffR suggested we let the forum decide. We put together a list of 10 topics that we both gave our positions on honestly. Our positions are below.

[quote]

Jason B - Mostly republican, leaning Libertarian, with a few lib tendencies…

  1. Abortion.

I believe women should be able to get abortions at any time. While I personally don’t agree with them in most cases, it isn’t my body so it isn’t my decision. But, we should at least make some good out of it and harvest the stem cells and use them!

  1. Taxes.

I hate taxes. If I had to propose a tax plan it would be a flat tax on all income between 25k and 75k. I would also create a national sales tax since people with more money will spend more they still will end up paying a majority of taxes, but at least they have a choice to spend it or save it. I would eliminate all taxes on captial gains, dividends, and estates.

  1. Gun Control.

No one should own a gun. Police and military only should have them. I would open to government run gun rental shops for hunters. From the day I banned guns all crimes committed using a gun would carry a minimum sentence of life in prison, but I would prefer the death penalty. I would eliminate the appeals process if a gun was used in the crime.

  1. Iraq War.

History will show we did the right thing. It may not be popular, but what is right isn’t always what is popular and vice versa.

  1. Bill Clinton

So he got a blow job. He is the President, he should get them whenever he wants! I didn’t like that he lied under oath. If he’d just admitted it, I would have been fine. The President lying under oath shouldn’t be tolerated. Otherwise, I think he’d be a hell of a good time to hang out with.

  1. George W. Bush.

Underrated as a President due to everyone thinking he is getting by on his name or who he knows. Even if everything he did was perfect a certain section of population would still find a way to hate him because of his family ties. Don’t they always tell you when you job hunt that it isn’t what you know, it’s who you know?

  1. John Kerry

Ran the stupidest campaign I have ever seen. I can’t believe the vote was as close as it was except for my answer to number 6.

  1. Iran

They need to play ball or get their asses kicked and we have just the foot to do it with!

  1. North Korea

This is a primary reason we need to return to state sponsored assassinations. We could eliminate the top of the leadership of this country and force them into playing nice.

  1. Religion

I am an atheist, but people wanting to practice doesn’t bother me (other than not getting it). Ihave no problem with the 10 commandments or saying God in the pledge. They are just words, not the end of the world.

So based upon these answers I am not sure I fall into any camp primarily, but feel most comfortable with republicans. I strongly believe that the government can only push a social agenda so far and if a majority of people don’t want to go along with it, it will fail. I do think the government has a major impact on fiscal issues and I do much more closely align with republicans on those issues.

Most people are not extreme in their views, but too many are closed minded.

I am independent, and really don’t like either party, but I am a conservative, or by one definition I heard, I am not a conservative, but a traditionalist, and still these terms have nothing really to do with the real meanings.

As far as this list, I’ll bite:

  1. Abortion

My belief is that the choice begins before you fuck. You decided to fuck without protection, you already made your choice.

  1. Taxes

Taxes are necessary, but should not be used for income redistribution. There needs to be a balance between funding the government, and damaging the economy. I too think that a flat tax with about a the first $40,000 or more for a family of 4 exempt, would be a good idea.

The more complex the taxes, the more it actually hurts the poor, and prevents people from becoming wealthy.

  1. Gun control

This is a distracted focus. The problem is not the guns. These are just things, and are not necessary to commit murder. And surprisingly easy to get and build if a person really wants one.

Plus, regardless of whether people like it or not, crime goes down where there are conceal and carry laws, and go up where guns are controlled or banned.

  1. Iraq war

We were right to go to war in Iraq, and it should have been done years ago. Leaving Saddam in power was a big mistake. Also I dislike the idea of people (who will not admit it) being against the war only because they don’t like Bush.

  1. Bill Clinton

Destroyed the Democratic Party and put the Republicans in power. Could give a speech better then almost anyone. Successfully spun the events of his presidency to seem to be about a blowjob. Kind of a Teflon type of person where nothing stuck. This drove the Republicans crazy, and was used successfully by him.

I still remember his first statement as president about a week after taking office. Some real good economic news came out and he took credit.

  1. George W. Bush

Similar to the Republicans over the top hate for Clinton, the Democrats have really gone loco over Bush being in power.

Is he a great president? No, but a little better then a mediocre president, but will be looked at fondly in history because he was president during 911. If he can get private accounts going, he will move to a more prominent position in my view.

When talking about either of these people during their presidency, too often people were not, or are not discussing politics, instead they are discussing the people. And while people think they are talking politics, they are actually engaging in gossip.

  1. John Kerry

A very bad choice. Democrats can say that now, but could not admit that during the race. This was as bas as when the Republicans picked Dole to run against Clinton.

  1. Iran

Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. Does anyone remember North Korea promising they would not make nukes? Kept their promise didn’t they? And now we are supposed to believe Iran?

  1. North Korea

This country is falling apart. The only reason they don’t is because of China, and getting stuff every time their little dictator throws a tantrum. His country is going to fail, especially if nothing is done to prop it up by us giving in to his whining. The big fear is that if it does start to fall, will he see no reason not to use his nukes?

  1. Religion

I also am an atheist, but I respect religion unlike most atheists. There is a lot of good stuff in the bible, and to just throw it all out just because it is religion is a mistake. For example some schools will not teach abstinence just because they see it as religious. What a load of crap.

Also nobody is being forced to pray in America, and it won’t happen anytime soon, so this is a way overblown worry. In fact it is twisted into the opposite, where people are not allowed to practice their constitutionally protected right to practice religion. Nobody should be forced to pray, or course, but nobody should be forced not to pray. And nobody ever died from second hand prayer.

  1. Sex

Love it. Lots of fun.

http://images.t-nation.com/forum_images/./1/.1115369087720.Hell-1.gif

Again the abortion issue.

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
I say a moderate, rationale, intelligent, guy. [/quote]

from your perch that’s probably true.

I don’t know as I’m prepared to go as far as rainjack with the left wing wacko comment, b/c you did acknowledge that Clinton set the party back 10 years.
Although you do say he’s your favorite president…

Yeah, loony left.
Sorry.
Nothing wrong with it, one of my very best friends is too. It makes our conversations that much more fun!
I don’t support using “liberal” as a serious insult (serious as opposed to joking).

[quote]Moriarty wrote:
I think my positions are pretty moderate dem, and pretty damn clear, but apparently there was some issue I didn’t kiss Bush’s ass on so I’m an ultra-liberal according to RJ, JeffR, and the rest of the labelling crew. I’d add that you can find posts from me on this forum that back up nearly all of these stances on the issues.

The only issue, off the top of my head, that I would say I take a very liberal stance on is gay marriage.

I’d like to see Vroom fill out this form, only because his views have never really seemed ultra-liberal to me, but he’s considered to be a lunatic on this forum.[/quote]

  1. Your posistions are.
    And I can see you voting conservatively.
  2. Vroom is considered a lunatic (I think) because ten minutes after one of his “I’m a moderate” monologues he pulls out a few “they’s” when talking about people like RJ.

Joe, you don’t know what you are talking about.

So, here is an interesting thread and you have to wade in mixing it up with your brand of tripe… good job.

What the fuck difference does it make what you are, or what you want to be called by others?

You are more than free-flowing with the name-calling yourself - but feel the need to start a “poor me, Rainjack called me a liberal” thread?

Either grow some stones, or quit playing tackle football.

Liberal but leaning to a centrist position…kinda like Hillary is doing.

If you moved to the South your position would be a traditional Southern Democrat…like Zell Miller. Those are the Democrats that have been driven from the Democratic party over the last 20 yrs.

Moriarty,

I don’t know what your label is, but I respect the way you argue, and even when we differ, which is most of the time, at least you put on your thinking cap and offer up some ideas. I appreciate that.

Too much shit-talking around these parts lately, not enough good debate on the substance. Odd that since we are here and claim to be proud T-men who think we can govern ourselves, we’re gonna have to have TC as nanny (no offense intended to TC) to slide in and make everyone retreat to their corner of the sandbox if the mouthing doesn’t settle down.

Based on you list, you sound like a moderate left-of-center kind of guy that maybe could vote conservative if the other opponent was too radical. Hey - you’re just what the Democratic Party needs, seriously. Cheers.

Here’s mine

  1. Abortion.

I believe in a woman’s right to choose. However, I do not think I could have done it.

  1. Taxes.

A neccessary evil. Should not be used for wealth redistribution, but I have no problems with supplying quality needs to poor people (such as healthcare, food, education etc.), but I’m not for just handing people money.

  1. Gun Control.

If I want a gun and I haven’t done anything wrong it is my right to have a gun, but on the other hand since they make killing people very easy, maybe they should be made a little bit harder to get (I guess by just enforcing current laws and closing loopholes).

  1. Iraq War.

Possibly a great idea, possibly a horrible idea, we will see. I do think we got scammed into the thing though.

  1. Bill Clinton

Seemed like a good president, but I wonder how he would have dealt with our current situation.

  1. George W. Bush.

I always find myself saying I hate the guy. But I really think my problem with him and the republican party has more to do with the talking heads (limbaugh, Hannity, etc.) and republican voters that live around me (many are straight up racists). I think Bush will be remembered as a good president, but it depends on how Iraq turns out.

  1. John Kerry

I voted for the guy. I’m also kind of glad he lost.

  1. Iran

Why did we invade Iraq and not Iran?

  1. North Korea

Why did we invade Iraq and not North Korea?

  1. Religion

It is a great thing to have strong beliefs, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, whatever. It is when people in power start to use religion to gain support that it gets danderous. Just look to the muslim extremest for an example. I don’t want our country to go that route.

So am I a Lunatic Liberal?

[quote]Moriarty wrote:
After a discussion with JeffR through PM on whether I was a moderate Dem or an ultra-liberal lunatic, JeffR suggested we let the forum decide. We put together a list of 10 topics that we both gave our positions on honestly. Our positions are below.

Moriarty:

  1. Abortion.

I believe that a woman should have a right to have abortions in the 1st trimester unconditionally, in the 2nd tri at doc’s discretion, in 3rd-tri only when the mother’s life is at risk. Abortion is NOT a right afforded by the constitution.

[quote]

Is a 14 year old a woman? Does she need parental consent or is it unconditional for her too?

Why difference between trimesters?