Alpha vs. Beta Male

Off Topic
21

I actually enjoy reading about Alpha Males and the common behaviour in a group. If you pm I’ll sent you some links I like.

An Alpha Male is the one in the group to who the other males listen, and with whom the women will make love to first. This can be any group(if you’re with 2 friends out drinking, one of you is going to be the Alpha Male in that group)

He got that position because of power he excerts, which can come from ingenuity, physical prowess, materialistic goods or a simple position of power.
If all of the group accept that he has a power higher than them, and he takes that position, he will become the Alpha Male.

Typical qualities : not making excuses for who he is or what he does, taking what he want, leading, being dominating, having sex with several women, and the typical body language : chin and chest high, back relaxed, eyes relaxed but aware, leaning back mostly.

In our society today, we can add charming, diplomatic and goal-orientated as well.

You have to be aware that there is an Alpha Male in ANY common situation, however, there are only few true alpha males. These are the ones who are Alpha Male in NEARLY ALL situations.
They have all the qualities, and have a natural sense of being the leader.

Something else I’ve come by, although this is not supported by any research, other than that I found it interesting, is that most true alpha males have the zodiac signs Leo or Aries.
Caesar, Alexander the Great, Bill Clinton, Louis the 14th, Mussolini, Fidel Castro, Arnold Schwarzenegger, were all Leos. Adolf Hitler and Saddam Hussein were Aries.
Don’t draw conclusions about their actions though, or that this finding is a fact, it was merely interesting.

22

A Beta male will ask my permission. If a Beta male tries to lead me, I will rebel and refuse to follow. I believe that I am either equally as competent or more capable than he is. We can be part of a team, but he doesn’t have the right to lead the team, nor claim that he is the reason for our success.

An alpha male doesn’t need to ask permission. I choose to follow because I believe it will result in success. My participation is contributing to the success and his leadership makes it more likely that we will achieve the goal.

A group of beta males will form a committee and come up with some group decision. An alpha in a committee will lead the group to a specific decision.

There are alpha females, too.

23

[quote]Evolver wrote:
StevenF wrote:
The only Alpha Male is Chuck Norris.

Chuck Norris never sleeps. He waits.[/quote]

Chuck Norris lost his virginity before his dad did.

24

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Synthesize wrote:
We are not baboons. Alpha males do not exist among human beings.

Bullshit. In the instance of an emergency, the guy who calms everyone else down and deals with the situation intelligently is the Alpha Male. If you have ever done any work in a group, you will soon find that someone has to be the leader.

Too many people trying to be leader at once or attempting to do their own thing leads to chaos. The one most skilled with the most leadership ability is the one who gravitates into that role.

One “pop” media example of this is the doctor on the series Lost. He is the Alpha Male because they look to him for leadership (at least as much as I have seen of the first season). To not know this takes place in ALL social circles implies lack of life experience.[/quote]

Natural leader does not equal Alpha Male.

“Alpha Male” is a term taken from primate literature, most notably baboons. The social systems of human beings and most other primates, particularly those with “dominant males” are disparate and distinct.

First, power is not had among human beings by means of force, as is in other species which establish “dominant males.” This is important, because this implies a range of other skills not necessarily related to aggression as necessary for leadership among human beings. A male can be high testosterone and assertive but lack the social skills required for leadership. In the case of baboons, this would NECESSARILY make him the Alpha Male, but among human beings, it is no guarantee for power. This is to say, a much wider range of abilities are required for leadership, and the very fact that these purported “beta males” can at all attain a leadership position disproves the notion of “Alpha Male” among human beings.

Second, human social systems are extremely different from other primates. Females look to a much wider array of qualities in their mates than in other species. Social dominance does not to such a great extent facilitate mating opportunities as it does with other species. Further, our mating system, while promiscuous, generally seems to promote monogamous relationships and therefore generally not a very disproportionate number of offspring among “socially dominant types.”

So not only is a dominant character not sufficient to guarantee leadership status among human males, the mating benefits conferred to those with a dominant character are not guaranteed. These are two fundamental characteristics of “alpha males” among primates, and therefore, you cannot generalize the “Alpha Male” category to human beings.

Your example, though I will excuse the fact that you took it from a “pop culture” source, which in and of itself is suspect due to popular culture greatly reflecting our own myths back to us, of which one is the “Alpha Male” myth, only seems to “prove” (I will admit this) that in transient social organizations, the most assertive male will tend to organize things best. Unfortunately, the critical point that you neglect to mention is precisely that these are transient organizations and that in long term situations, a number of other qualities besides sheer “aggressiveness” or “assertiveness” are required to maintain a position of power. And this proves my point: power is acquired by human beings by a number of other means.

Among bodybuilders, masculinity is treasured and exhorted. Unfortunately, it is not everything among human beings, and that is precisely why are are denigrated as “meatheads.” So I can see, in particular, why the Alpha Male myth is transmitted among us. But, fundamentally, it is false.

25

[quote]Synthesize wrote:
We are not baboons. Alpha males do not exist among human beings.[/quote]

Read “Our Inner Ape”. The parallels between primate societies and emotions and human societies and emotions are striking.

While it is true that we are not baboons alpha males do certainly exist in our society.

26

Alpha males exist in school playgrounds, prisons, sports teams, etc.

Our society does value things in addition to being the biggest and strongest as well.

27

[quote]Synthesize wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Synthesize wrote:
We are not baboons. Alpha males do not exist among human beings.

Bullshit. In the instance of an emergency, the guy who calms everyone else down and deals with the situation intelligently is the Alpha Male. If you have ever done any work in a group, you will soon find that someone has to be the leader.

Too many people trying to be leader at once or attempting to do their own thing leads to chaos. The one most skilled with the most leadership ability is the one who gravitates into that role.

One “pop” media example of this is the doctor on the series Lost. He is the Alpha Male because they look to him for leadership (at least as much as I have seen of the first season). To not know this takes place in ALL social circles implies lack of life experience.

Natural leader does not equal Alpha Male.

“Alpha Male” is a term taken from primate literature, most notably baboons. The social systems of human beings and most other primates, particularly those with “dominant males” are disparate and distinct.

First, power is not had among human beings by means of force, as is in other species which establish “dominant males.” This is important, because this implies a range of other skills not necessarily related to aggression as necessary for leadership among human beings. A male can be high testosterone and assertive but lack the social skills required for leadership. In the case of baboons, this would NECESSARILY make him the Alpha Male, but among human beings, it is no guarantee for power. This is to say, a much wider range of abilities are required for leadership, and the very fact that these purported “beta males” can at all attain a leadership position disproves the notion of “Alpha Male” among human beings.

Second, human social systems are extremely different from other primates. Females look to a much wider array of qualities in their mates than in other species. Social dominance does not to such a great extent facilitate mating opportunities as it does with other species. Further, our mating system, while promiscuous, generally seems to promote monogamous relationships and therefore generally not a very disproportionate number of offspring among “socially dominant types.”

So not only is a dominant character not sufficient to guarantee leadership status among human males, the mating benefits conferred to those with a dominant character are not guaranteed. These are two fundamental characteristics of “alpha males” among primates, and therefore, you cannot generalize the “Alpha Male” category to human beings.

Your example, though I will excuse the fact that you took it from a “pop culture” source, which in and of itself is suspect due to popular culture greatly reflecting our own myths back to us, of which one is the “Alpha Male” myth, only seems to “prove” (I will admit this) that in transient social organizations, the most assertive male will tend to organize things best. Unfortunately, the critical point that you neglect to mention is precisely that these are transient organizations and that in long term situations, a number of other qualities besides sheer “aggressiveness” or “assertiveness” are required to maintain a position of power. And this proves my point: power is acquired by human beings by a number of other means.

Among bodybuilders, masculinity is treasured and exhorted. Unfortunately, it is not everything among human beings, and that is precisely why are are denigrated as “meatheads.” So I can see, in particular, why the Alpha Male myth is transmitted among us. But, fundamentally, it is false.[/quote]

Who are you writing this for? I mean, honestly, you thought anyone was relating this term directly to its use in primates? Be careful, the next time someone says, “what’s up” you might get sun in your eyes.

28

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Alpha males exist in school playgrounds, prisons, sports teams, etc.

Our society does value things in addition to being the biggest and strongest as well.[/quote]

Possibly, only in terms of being the “richest”, the most powerful and the prettiest. We simply expanded beyond physical intimidation because money, power and fame work just as well in our society in addition to strength and size depending on the situation.

29

[quote]Leeuwer wrote:
I actually enjoy reading about Alpha Males and the common behaviour in a group. If you pm I’ll sent you some links I like.

An Alpha Male is the one in the group to who the other males listen, and with whom the women will make love to first. This can be any group(if you’re with 2 friends out drinking, one of you is going to be the Alpha Male in that group)

He got that position because of power he excerts, which can come from ingenuity, physical prowess, materialistic goods or a simple position of power.
If all of the group accept that he has a power higher than them, and he takes that position, he will become the Alpha Male.

Typical qualities : not making excuses for who he is or what he does, taking what he want, leading, being dominating, having sex with several women, and the typical body language : chin and chest high, back relaxed, eyes relaxed but aware, leaning back mostly.

In our society today, we can add charming, diplomatic and goal-orientated as well.

You have to be aware that there is an Alpha Male in ANY common situation, however, there are only few true alpha males. These are the ones who are Alpha Male in NEARLY ALL situations.
They have all the qualities, and have a natural sense of being the leader.

Something else I’ve come by, although this is not supported by any research, other than that I found it interesting, is that most true alpha males have the zodiac signs Leo or Aries.
Caesar, Alexander the Great, Bill Clinton, Louis the 14th, Mussolini, Fidel Castro, Arnold Schwarzenegger, were all Leos. Adolf Hitler and Saddam Hussein were Aries.
Don’t draw conclusions about their actions though, or that this finding is a fact, it was merely interesting. [/quote]

Hahahahaha, are you kidding me?

30

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Alpha males exist in school playgrounds, prisons, sports teams, etc.

Our society does value things in addition to being the biggest and strongest as well.

Possibly, only in terms of being the “richest”, the most powerful and the prettiest. We simply expanded beyond physical intimidation because money, power and fame work just as well in our society in addition to strength and size depending on the situation. [/quote]

Even chimpanzees form political alliances. In their case size and aggression is also not enough.

The mere size difference between men and women is a strong indicator that women prefer to mate with dominant males AND that physical dominance had a lot to do social dominance and access to women.

To anyone who doubts this or thinks that we are somehow enlightened and noble creatures, read Buss, 1994, “The evolution of desire” and weep.

31

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Synthesize wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Synthesize wrote:
We are not baboons. Alpha males do not exist among human beings.

Bullshit. In the instance of an emergency, the guy who calms everyone else down and deals with the situation intelligently is the Alpha Male. If you have ever done any work in a group, you will soon find that someone has to be the leader.

Too many people trying to be leader at once or attempting to do their own thing leads to chaos. The one most skilled with the most leadership ability is the one who gravitates into that role.

One “pop” media example of this is the doctor on the series Lost. He is the Alpha Male because they look to him for leadership (at least as much as I have seen of the first season). To not know this takes place in ALL social circles implies lack of life experience.

Natural leader does not equal Alpha Male.

“Alpha Male” is a term taken from primate literature, most notably baboons. The social systems of human beings and most other primates, particularly those with “dominant males” are disparate and distinct.

First, power is not had among human beings by means of force, as is in other species which establish “dominant males.” This is important, because this implies a range of other skills not necessarily related to aggression as necessary for leadership among human beings. A male can be high testosterone and assertive but lack the social skills required for leadership. In the case of baboons, this would NECESSARILY make him the Alpha Male, but among human beings, it is no guarantee for power. This is to say, a much wider range of abilities are required for leadership, and the very fact that these purported “beta males” can at all attain a leadership position disproves the notion of “Alpha Male” among human beings.

Second, human social systems are extremely different from other primates. Females look to a much wider array of qualities in their mates than in other species. Social dominance does not to such a great extent facilitate mating opportunities as it does with other species. Further, our mating system, while promiscuous, generally seems to promote monogamous relationships and therefore generally not a very disproportionate number of offspring among “socially dominant types.”

So not only is a dominant character not sufficient to guarantee leadership status among human males, the mating benefits conferred to those with a dominant character are not guaranteed. These are two fundamental characteristics of “alpha males” among primates, and therefore, you cannot generalize the “Alpha Male” category to human beings.

Your example, though I will excuse the fact that you took it from a “pop culture” source, which in and of itself is suspect due to popular culture greatly reflecting our own myths back to us, of which one is the “Alpha Male” myth, only seems to “prove” (I will admit this) that in transient social organizations, the most assertive male will tend to organize things best. Unfortunately, the critical point that you neglect to mention is precisely that these are transient organizations and that in long term situations, a number of other qualities besides sheer “aggressiveness” or “assertiveness” are required to maintain a position of power. And this proves my point: power is acquired by human beings by a number of other means.

Among bodybuilders, masculinity is treasured and exhorted. Unfortunately, it is not everything among human beings, and that is precisely why are are denigrated as “meatheads.” So I can see, in particular, why the Alpha Male myth is transmitted among us. But, fundamentally, it is false.

Who are you writing this for? I mean, honestly, you thought anyone was relating this term directly to its use in primates? Be careful, the next time someone says, “what’s up” you might get sun in your eyes.[/quote]

Actually, yes, people are referring to primates. Only with the advent of sociobiology have these “Alpha Male” analogies become in vogue. Many of the conceptions of what it means to be “Alpha Male” are borrowed directly from primate literature. The popular conception of Alpha Male is borrowed DIRECTLY from primates. And if you aren’t discussing us in the context of wider primate social systems, why use the Alpha Male term anyway? If you take away these “primate connotations” to the term “Alpha Male,” you take away its very meaning. Getting through to you yet?

32

[quote]Synthesize wrote:
Actually, yes, people are referring to primates. Only with the advent of sociobiology have these “Alpha Male” analogies become in vogue. Many of the conceptions of what it means to be “Alpha Male” are borrowed directly from primate literature. The popular conception of Alpha Male is borrowed DIRECTLY from primates. And if you aren’t discussing us in the context of wider primate social systems, why use the Alpha Male term anyway? If you take away these “primate connotations” to the term “Alpha Male,” you take away its very meaning. Getting through to you yet?[/quote]

We relate to many of these concepts because, deep down, our instincts, desires and biology are not so different than more basic animals. Pheromones are still believed to have an effect on the opposite sex in HUMANS. You decided to school us as if we all were thinking that we were gorillas. Thank you for informing us that this is not the case. I am sure I speak for all when I say we appreciate the enlightement because I had not a clue. Are you claiming that social orders have no relations that are present in the animal kingdom?

33

Alpha males exist in more that just primates and humans. Canines, deer, walruses, or any species where there is competition for mates, territory, and food will gravitate towards a heirarchiel social system.

Try and think of a species where competition for resources doesn’t exist?

34

Synthesize,

I don?t get the problem.

Social dominance is social dominance by whatever means it is achieved and those dominant individuals are not very likely to have climbed the social ladder by accident.

Those individuals have the same privileges that can be observed everywhere in the animal kingdom (control over resources, easier access to more attractive mates).

So why not call those individuals Alpha Males/ Females if it is the same phenomenon like in thousands of other social species and thereby acknowledging that we our social life is basically like theirs?

35

[quote]Ladyjaine wrote:
A Beta male will ask my permission. If a Beta male tries to lead me, I will rebel and refuse to follow. I believe that I am either equally as competent or more capable than he is. We can be part of a team, but he doesn’t have the right to lead the team, nor claim that he is the reason for our success.

An Alpha Male doesn’t need to ask permission. I choose to follow because I believe it will result in success. My participation is contributing to the success and his leadership makes it more likely that we will achieve the goal.

A group of beta males will form a committee and come up with some group decision. An alpha in a committee will lead the group to a specific decision.

There are alpha females, too. [/quote]

NICE

36

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:

While it is true that we are not baboons alpha males do certainly exist in our society.
[/quote]

That’s right. I’m one. Try and dethrone me;)

37

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Synthesize wrote:
We are not baboons. Alpha males do not exist among human beings.

Read “Our Inner Ape”. The parallels between primate societies and emotions and human societies and emotions are striking.

While it is true that we are not baboons alpha males do certainly exist in our society.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1573223123/qid=1137427814/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-2074121-2332610?n=507846&s=books&v=glance [/quote]

You are going to give me a book, and supposedly this authority is going to convince me? I have read the literature, and I do not agree with this claim, though I do believe comparisons with primates can yield some interesting models of human behavior. I, however, do not believe the “Alpha Male” comparison is a good one.

38

[quote]Synthesize wrote:

This is to say, a much wider range of abilities are required for leadership, and the very fact that these purported “beta males” can at all attain a leadership position disproves the notion of “Alpha Male” among human beings.

[/quote]

Institutional leadership does not equal instinctional leadership.
Did you follow your dad when you were a child because he owned your property ? Of course not, you didn’t even know what the meaning of property was when you were 4 !
You followed him because instinctually, you knew he had more power than you.

[quote]Synthesize wrote:

Unfortunately, the critical point that you neglect to mention is precisely that these are transient organizations and that in long term situations, a number of other qualities besides sheer “aggressiveness” or “assertiveness” are required to maintain a position of power. And this proves my point: power is acquired by human beings by a number of other means.

[/quote]

Of course it is.
If you are between a group of friends, visiting France, and you happen to know a lot about the country and decide to take the lead, and your friends unconsciously agree that you are in this particular situation superior to them, you are now the Alpha Male.

I understand what you are saying though.
Baboons have very uncomplicated life structures.
The strongest or wittiest will usually be the Alpha Male.
However, because of civilisation and institutions, we’ve come to ignore our instincts to instead rely on things like proper manners, and cultural behaviour.

This makes being a true Alpha Male much more complicated or demanding.
However, they do exist. They are rare, but you will find males, if you look hard enough, that everyone will follow regardless of what they tell, and that nearly every(single, because marriage is one of those limiting institutions) woman will want to be with.

39

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Synthesize wrote:
Actually, yes, people are referring to primates. Only with the advent of sociobiology have these “Alpha Male” analogies become in vogue. Many of the conceptions of what it means to be “Alpha Male” are borrowed directly from primate literature. The popular conception of Alpha Male is borrowed DIRECTLY from primates. And if you aren’t discussing us in the context of wider primate social systems, why use the Alpha Male term anyway? If you take away these “primate connotations” to the term “Alpha Male,” you take away its very meaning. Getting through to you yet?

We relate to many of these concepts because, deep down, our instincts, desires and biology are not so different than more basic animals. Pheromones are still believed to have an effect on the opposite sex in HUMANS. You decided to school us as if we all were thinking that we were gorillas. Thank you for informing us that this is not the case. I am sure I speak for all when I say we appreciate the enlightement because I had not a clue. Are you claiming that social orders have no relations that are present in the animal kingdom?[/quote]

Our biology and social behaviors have striking similarities to animals, this is true. Due, however, to disparate evolutionary paths, our social behaviors have taken on distinct and unprecedented features when compared to the rest of the animal kingdom. Again, this claim cannot be disputed.

We are animals, and again, we find no argument here.

What I argue instead is that we can find as much similarity between us and primates with strong male dominance as those without. And I do not dispute male dominance in human societies. I simply state: male dominance in humans has taken upon a different evolutionary path and so we must be careful when comparing humans to other primates. Comparisons can yield useful models of human behavior, but I think the comparison to “alpha males” in other primate species is a misbegotten one and not helpful to understanding contemporary human beings.

For the matter of pheremones: human beings do not even detect pheremones through the same sensory apparatus as do most other primate species, including baboons. I cannot deny the role of pheremones for hormonal regulation; this has been proven. However, again, even in the case of pheremones regulating behavior (hormones regulate behavior), we must be cautious, because human beings are again, very different from other primates. And although this is the case, I do admit that useful comparisons can be drawn.

I will not stand on a soapbox and preach the magnificence and superiority of human beings when compared to the rest of the animal kingdom. All I wish is to dispel harmful comparisons to primates, of which I believe the “Alpha Male” comparison is one.

40

[quote]Synthesize wrote:

Hahahahaha, are you kidding me?[/quote]

Hahahahaha, nope.