“Should I inform you of who the Believer is? It is he from whom people are secure with regards to their wealth and their own selves. The Muslim is he from whose tongue and hand other people are safe. The Mujahid [“jihadi” in modern parlance] is he who performs jihad [=struggle] against his own ego in the obedience of Allah. And the Immigrant is he who abandons error and sin”
Wafa Sultan provides an interesting viewpoint.
Here is her transcript from an Arab TV channel (Al-Jazeera?)
Here is a video of it
Just do a google search on some of the stuff she says…
[quote]InCorporeSano wrote:
I teach religious studies at a private Episcopal high school and I’m offering an Intro to Islam course this fall even though I myself am not a Muslim.
Nowhere in the Qur’an are believers instructed to kill non-believers. This sense of jihad as a purely physical, violent war is a perversion of Islam. The word in Arabic means “to exert utmost effort, to strive, struggle”. Muslim scholars identify several different types of jihad-- and, to be fair, one of them is violent-- but it is called for only when Muslims are prohibited from freely practicing their faith. I believe the US fought a little war over religious freedom itself some time ago. [/quote]
Wrong. And nonsense. There historic alternatives to war were conversion or, in the case of Christians and Jews (and Parsees, occasionally) pay the jizya.
From the book:
"Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers!" 3:151
"How many a township have We destroyed! As a raid by night, or while they slept at noon, Our terror came unto them. No plea had they, when Our terror came unto them, save that they said: Lo! We were wrong-doers." 7:4-5
"Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): 'I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.'" 8:12
"Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly." 8:60
"Lo! those who disbelieve spend their wealth in order that they may debar (men) from the way of Allah. They will spend it, then it will become an anguish for them, then they will be conquered. And those who disbelieve will be gathered unto hell,"8:36
"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."9:5
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued." 9:29
"And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!" 9:30
"And the True Promise draweth nigh; then behold them, staring wide (in terror), the eyes of those who disbelieve! (They say): Alas for us! We (lived) in forgetfulness of this. Ah, but we were wrong-doers!" 21:97
"He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, that He may make it conqueror of all religion however much idolaters may be averse."61:9
"On the Day when (some) faces will be whitened and (some) faces will be blackened; and as for those whose faces have been blackened, it will be said unto them: Disbelieved ye after your (profession of) belief ? Then taste the punishment for that ye disbelieved."3:106
"Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise." 4:56
"And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do." 8:39
"O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence." 8:65
"Lo! those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings."98:6
"Say: (It is) the truth from the Lord of you (all). Then whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve. Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers Fire. Its tent encloseth them. If they ask for showers, they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces. Calamitous the drink and ill the resting-place!" 18:29
"These twain (the believers and the disbelievers) are two opponents who contend concerning their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads,Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted;And for them are hooked rods of iron.Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning." 22:19-22
Then there are the Hadiths. . .
Also the interprative traditions in Islam which say that the later suras overrule the earlier suras to the extent they conflict. The tolerance ones are pretty early. The death and violence ones tend to be later.
[quote]Miserere wrote:
Is anyone else worried about the “loving” cristians that shoot abortion doctors because “that’s what God wants”?
All religious texts contain conflicting information. It doesn’t matter what god you believe in, if you want to go on a killing rampage you will find a justification in your text of choice.[/quote]
completely false statement when it comes to Orthodox Christianity. Just shows your ignorance as is most of the worlds when it comes to Christian history and Orthodoxy.
Not everyone who believes in Jesus Christ is also a follower. There is a vast difference.
Also if you want to analyze the truths of religions, focus on the groups that people call “extremists”. They are the ones who represent the following to its trueist form. Anyone else who has conformed and deviated from their “religion” is not following it truthfully. To pick and choose what you want to believe is hypocritical.
I thank God for these conformed people because they make living a little easier, don’t you think? laters pk
[quote]Res Judicata wrote:
Wrong. And nonsense. There historic alternatives to war were conversion or, in the case of Christians and Jews (and Parsees, occasionally) pay the jizya.
From the book:
"Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers!" 3:151
"How many a township have We destroyed! As a raid by night, or while they slept at noon, Our terror came unto them. No plea had they, when Our terror came unto them, save that they said: Lo! We were wrong-doers." 7:4-5
"Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): 'I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.'" 8:12
"Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly." 8:60
"Lo! those who disbelieve spend their wealth in order that they may debar (men) from the way of Allah. They will spend it, then it will become an anguish for them, then they will be conquered. And those who disbelieve will be gathered unto hell,"8:36
"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."9:5
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued." 9:29
"And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!" 9:30
"And the True Promise draweth nigh; then behold them, staring wide (in terror), the eyes of those who disbelieve! (They say): Alas for us! We (lived) in forgetfulness of this. Ah, but we were wrong-doers!" 21:97
"He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, that He may make it conqueror of all religion however much idolaters may be averse."61:9
"On the Day when (some) faces will be whitened and (some) faces will be blackened; and as for those whose faces have been blackened, it will be said unto them: Disbelieved ye after your (profession of) belief ? Then taste the punishment for that ye disbelieved."3:106
"Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise." 4:56
"And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do." 8:39
"O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence." 8:65
"Lo! those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings."98:6
"Say: (It is) the truth from the Lord of you (all). Then whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve. Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers Fire. Its tent encloseth them. If they ask for showers, they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces. Calamitous the drink and ill the resting-place!" 18:29
"These twain (the believers and the disbelievers) are two opponents who contend concerning their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads,Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted;And for them are hooked rods of iron.Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning." 22:19-22
Then there are the Hadiths. . .
Also the interprative traditions in Islam which say that the later suras overrule the earlier suras to the extent they conflict. The tolerance ones are pretty early. The death and violence ones tend to be later. [/quote]
For a guy that doesn’t even know the difference between “their” and “there” you sure claim to know a tonne about Islam.
Reality is, these series of verses are found on many anti-Islamic websites, these snippets taken piecemeal, out of context, and often mis-translated. The book is plus or minus 800 pages (depends on the calligraphy) and you try to portray the entire religion in the light of handful of snippets. Why don’t you also provide the verses before and after? What is the context of these verses?
You can’t talk about that can you? You talk about Islam being intolerant, yet you are doing nothing more than preaching hatred of a billion people.
Z-man:
Part of the prolem is that Islam is not monolithic. There is no Islamic Pope, an d no one to finally determine doctrine. So beliefs vary significantly between groups.
I didn’t say one of the 5 pillars. I said a central tenant, which is fair description of jihad. Those are actually the 5 pillars of Sunni Islam; other variants differ. (Jihad is actually one of the pillars of the ismalii sect, I believe, but no matter). Nevertheless, jihad is a central tenant of Islam, practiced by Mohammand, and forms an important part of Islamic theology, jurispridence and belief.
Non-Muslims paying jizya did not obtain the same rights as Muslims. They simply were afforded the protection of the state and not killed or expelled. But they were not equal to Muslims in the eyes of Islamic law and the protection of the state could be . . . fickle. (Ask the Armenians). You’ll note the wikipedia article indicates that the jizya was being collected as late as the 19th C. in some places.
The tax was imposed as a means of humiliation and oppression. From that same article:
Criticism of jizya has typically focused not only on its specific application to non-Muslims, but also its humiliating nature. It has been described as a demonstration of “constitutional inferiority and humiliation”[11] and criticized for the “consistent, intentionally humiliating character of its application”.[12] According to Orientalist S.D. Goitein in Evidence on the Muslim Poll Tax from Non-Muslim Sources:
It was, of course, evident that the tax represented a discrimination and was intended, according to the Koran's own words, to emphasize the inferior status of the non-believers. It seemed, however, that from the economic point of view, it did not constitute a heavy imposition, since it was on a sliding scale, approximately one, two, and four dinars, and thus adjusted to the financial capacity of the taxpayer.
This impression proved to be entirely fallacious, for it did not take into consideration the immense extent of poverty and privation experienced by the masses, and in particular their way of living from hand to mouth, their persistent lack of cash, which turned the “season of the tax” into one of horror, dread, and misery. The provisions of ancient Islamic law which exempted the indigent, the invalids and the old, were no longer observed in the Geniza period and had been discarded by the Sh?fi?? School of Law, which prevailed in Egypt, also in theory.[13]
I’ll give you another example: suicide is absolutely forbidden by Islam as an unforgivable sin against God, just as it is in Christianity. But yet we have Islamic suicide bombers. Why? Because they are considered martyrs, not suicides, under a very conveient development of Islamic jurisprudence.
It makes military jihad very attractive. In addition, Muslims are called to emulate Mohammad. Mohammad practiced military jihad. (There is actually very extensive Islamic jurisprudence on how jihad is to be waged, incidentally).
I know many devout Christians, and often shop at a a Kosher store where I talk and joke with the Jewish owners. Neither the Jewish or Christians have ever tried to kill me or called me a terrorist, nor I them. If I were to judge them in the light of extremist Jews or Christians, not only would I be ignorant, I would be depriving myself and my children of the social understanding and respect that all religions should have for each other.
I also have Sikh, Hindu and Bhuddist friends, and we get along just fine. I elect to leave my explosive belt at home when I go to visit them, and they elect not to burn my house down or slash me with their kirpans.
How you want to interact with others defines who you are. If you are a hateful bastard, you will not only hate everyone of other religions, but also those in your own that don’t follow your extreme and violent idealogies. Islam does not have a monopoly on hateful ignorant assholes, you will find them in every faith.
I stay away from extremists, whether they be Muslim or otherwise. I find that they have little to offer, because they are generally ignorant, unhappy and unpleasant to be around.
Res Judicata, You’re not going to convince me that Islam is violent by nature, just as I’m not going to convince you that it is not.
Do muslims behave in ways that they shouldn’t, of course. Do so called scholars pass fatwa’s that are violent in nature. Of course. Everyone has their own agenda, and any religion can be used for this.
I place no value on websites like Jihad Watch and Answering Islam, who exist for n=no other purpose than to smear Islam with half truths and often outright lies. If this is your source of information about Islam, than you have already decided to hate Muslims and Islam, and read these to support an established belief, rather than learn about Islam. There is nothing anyone can do to change your mind.
The guy mentioned in the e-mail is exactly right about Islam - it is an inherently violent religion. On nearly every single page of the Koran there is a reference to violence and a reference to conflict with nonbelievers. Furthermore, the koran not only condones, but requires followers take part in killing unbelievers. The only difference between the moderate muslim and osama bin laden is that bin laden actually read the book and believed it. The same thing is also true of christianity.
[quote]pitbull314 wrote:
The guy mentioned in the e-mail is exactly right about Islam - it is an inherently violent religion. On nearly every single page of the Koran there is a reference to violence and a reference to conflict with nonbelievers. Furthermore, the koran not only condones, but requires followers take part in killing unbelievers. The only difference between the moderate muslim and osama bin laden is that bin laden actually read the book and believed it. The same thing is also true of christianity.[/quote]
caca de toro.
I had plenty of muslims (devout ones who read the Koran) in my med school class. Not a single one ever tried to play “kill the infidel” with me. I had very redneck views of muslims before I moved to NYC and met a lot of them, but I’ve learned that rank-and-file muslims are no different from other rank-and-file people. Sure, their extremists are nuts, but not a single one of muslim acquaintances agreed with the actions of their extremist brethren.
If Satan exists, he would not come at us as himself. He’d dress himself up, create his own ‘religion’ that proudly proclaims violence and Jihad, then sit back and enjoy the ensuing carnage. Based upon what I know of Islam (as practised by those in the Near East) this appears to be in the realm of possibility. Only Satanists would saw off a dude’s head and broadcast it. Only Satanists would kidnap Israeli soldiers in an effort to provoke a war. Only Satanists would try to initiate a civil war by bombing another sect’s (of brother Muslims) mosque.
If it looks like a duck…
[quote]pkradgreek wrote:
nothing surprising in what was written. You’d be surprised at the teachings of certain “religions”. Christians would also be shocked if they read the Jewish Talmoud. You’d then wonder why anyone would call someone anti-semetic when you have Christian hating doctrine like that. laters pk
[/quote]
Please explain how the Talmud (thats the correct spelling) can be “Christian hating” seeing as how it was written thousands of years before the birth of Christ.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
If Satan exists, he would not come at us as himself. He’d dress himself up, create his own ‘religion’ that proudly proclaims violence and Jihad, then sit back and enjoy the ensuing carnage. Based upon what I know of Islam (as practised by those in the Near East) this appears to be in the realm of possibility. Only Satanists would saw off a dude’s head and broadcast it. Only Satanists would kidnap Israeli soldiers in an effort to provoke a war. Only Satanists would try to initiate a civil war by bombing another sect’s (of brother Muslims) mosque.
If it looks like a duck…
[/quote]
I resent that.
The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth
by Anton Szandor LaVey 1967
1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
3. When in another?s lair, show him respect or else do not go there.
4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.
5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
6. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.
7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.
8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
9. Do not harm little children.
10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.
11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.
[quote]Satan wrote:
I resent that.
The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth
by Anton Szandor LaVey 1967
1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
3. When in another?s lair, show him respect or else do not go there.
4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.
5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
6. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.
7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.
8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
9. Do not harm little children.
10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.
11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him. [/quote]
Funny! Satan’s first post!
[quote]Res Judicata wrote:
Miserere wrote:
Is anyone else worried about the “loving” cristians that shoot abortion doctors because “that’s what God wants”?
All religious texts contain conflicting information. It doesn’t matter what god you believe in, if you want to go on a killing rampage you will find a justification in your text of choice.
Here’s the difference: thats (1) extraordinarily rare, (2) against Christianity, and (3) critically, essentially universally condemned by Christians.
Jihad through violence is: (1) very common, (2) a central tentant of Islam, and (3) not condemned, and often accepted, by the Muslim establishment.
Of course the description of jihad in the above letter is wrong in a number of respects. But fudamentally Muslims are required to struggle against non-Muslims, historically through war as Mohammand did. It’s really only pagans and athiests that they were required to kill (or enslave); Christians and Jews were permitted to live as “dhimmis” if they paid a poll tax called a “jizya”.
And no Islamic cleric would say that, because under a principle called “Al-taqiyya” (Dissimulation/“Holy Lying”), Muslims are permitted to lie to non-Muslims, and do frequently.
It isn’t about particular crazy people finding justifications for murder. It’s about an ideology that radicalizes otherwise normal people into death-seeking fanatics.
In addition, I’m particularly worried about Islamic violence because it is at the center of essentially of the modern world’s violent conflicts. And those people are trying to kill people like me.
When the Methodists start plotting to kill thousands of people through hijacked airplanes, call me. Until then, no, I’m not worried about random radicallized nutjobs who happen to be Christians. [/quote]
Finally, an intelligent post!
[quote]Res Judicata wrote:
Z-man:
Part of the prolem is that Islam is not monolithic. There is no Islamic Pope, an d no one to finally determine doctrine. So beliefs vary significantly between groups.
I didn’t say one of the 5 pillars. I said a central tenant, which is fair description of jihad. Those are actually the 5 pillars of Sunni Islam; other variants differ. (Jihad is actually one of the pillars of the ismalii sect, I believe, but no matter). Nevertheless, jihad is a central tenant of Islam, practiced by Mohammand, and forms an important part of Islamic theology, jurispridence and belief.
Non-Muslims paying jizya did not obtain the same rights as Muslims. They simply were afforded the protection of the state and not killed or expelled. But they were not equal to Muslims in the eyes of Islamic law and the protection of the state could be . . . fickle. (Ask the Armenians). You’ll note the wikipedia article indicates that the jizya was being collected as late as the 19th C. in some places.
The tax was imposed as a means of humiliation and oppression. From that same article:
Criticism of jizya has typically focused not only on its specific application to non-Muslims, but also its humiliating nature. It has been described as a demonstration of “constitutional inferiority and humiliation”[11] and criticized for the “consistent, intentionally humiliating character of its application”.[12] According to Orientalist S.D. Goitein in Evidence on the Muslim Poll Tax from Non-Muslim Sources:
It was, of course, evident that the tax represented a discrimination and was intended, according to the Koran's own words, to emphasize the inferior status of the non-believers. It seemed, however, that from the economic point of view, it did not constitute a heavy imposition, since it was on a sliding scale, approximately one, two, and four dinars, and thus adjusted to the financial capacity of the taxpayer.
This impression proved to be entirely fallacious, for it did not take into consideration the immense extent of poverty and privation experienced by the masses, and in particular their way of living from hand to mouth, their persistent lack of cash, which turned the “season of the tax” into one of horror, dread, and misery. The provisions of ancient Islamic law which exempted the indigent, the invalids and the old, were no longer observed in the Geniza period and had been discarded by the Sh?fi?? School of Law, which prevailed in Egypt, also in theory.[13]
I’ll give you another example: suicide is absolutely forbidden by Islam as an unforgivable sin against God, just as it is in Christianity. But yet we have Islamic suicide bombers. Why? Because they are considered martyrs, not suicides, under a very conveient development of Islamic jurisprudence.
It makes military jihad very attractive. In addition, Muslims are called to emulate Mohammad. Mohammad practiced military jihad. (There is actually very extensive Islamic jurisprudence on how jihad is to be waged, incidentally).
[/quote]
Another intelligent post!
[quote]Satan wrote:
3. When in another?s lair, show him respect or else do not go there.
4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.
[/quote]
In your lair? Lair? What the fuck?
That’s it, no more playing Dungeons & Dragons for you.
[quote]Res Judicata wrote:
Part of the prolem is that Islam is not monolithic. There is no Islamic Pope, an d no one to finally determine doctrine. So beliefs vary significantly between groups.[/quote]
The Pope determines doctrine for the Catholics; not for the myriad other Christian groups; especially not those that splintered off from Protestantism, as the Pope’s authority is one of the “protested” points.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
If it looks like a duck…
[/quote]
…but wheezes like a vacuum cleaner that’s caught a sock, it might just be HH.
Check if it’s yellow.