T Nation

Allah or Jesus?

I recieved this in an email this morning. I will admit ignorance on the Muslim point of view, and moderate knowledge on the Catholic / Protestant / Christian view.

This is not an invitation for a debate or an all out war on which religion is right. I dont care personally, and endorse non of the above.

What i am most interested in, is the point of this email, dealing with the Jihad. Is this true?

(email starts here)

GOT TO READ

The Jihad… Interesting - - - this appears to sum up what we are faced with.

Muslim religion is the fastest growing religion per capita in Canada and the United States especially in the minority race.

Allah or Jesus? By: Rick Mathes

Last month I attended my annual training session that’s required for maintaining my state prison security clearance. During the training session there was a presentation by three speakers representing the Roman Catholic, Protestant and Muslim faiths, who explained each of their belief systems.

I was particularly interested in what the Islamic Imam had to say. The Imam gave a great presentation of the basics of Islam, complete with a video.

After the presentations, time was provided for questions and answers. When it was my turn, I directed my question to the Imam and asked:

“Please, correct me if I’m wrong, but I understand that most Imams and clerics of Islam have declared a holy jihad [Holy war] against the infidels of the world. And, that by killing an infidel, which is a command to all Muslims, they are assured of a place in heaven. If that’s the case, can you give me the definition of an infidel?”

There was no disagreement with my statements and, without hesitation, he replied, “Non-believers!”

I responded, “So, let me make sure I have this straight. All followers of
Allah have been commanded to kill everyone who is not of your faith so they can go to Heaven. Is that correct?”

The _expression on his face changed from one of authority and command to that of a little boy who had just gotten caught with his hand in the cookie jar. He sheepishly replied, “Yes.”

I then stated, "Well, sir, I have a real problem trying to imagine Pope John Paul commanding all Catholics to kill those of your faith or Dr. Stanley ordering Protestants to do the same in order to go to Heaven.

The Imam was speechless.

I continued, “I also have problem with being your friend when you and your brother clerics are telling your followers to kill me. Let me ask you a question. Would you rather have your Allah who tells you to kill me in order to go to Heaven or my Jesus who tells me to love you because I am going to Heaven and He wants you to be with me?”

You could have heard a pin drop as the Imam hung his head in shame. Needless to say, the organizers and/or promoters of the ‘Diversification’ training seminar were not happy with Rick’s way of dealing with the Islamic Imam and exposing the truth about the Muslim’s beliefs.

I think everyone in the US and Canada should be required to read this, but with the liberal justice system, liberal media, and the ACLU, there is no way this will be widely publicized. Please pass this on to all your e-mail contacts.

It’s in an email, so it must be true!!!

nothing surprising in what was written. You’d be surprised at the teachings of certain “religions”. Christians would also be shocked if they read the Jewish Talmoud. You’d then wonder why anyone would call someone anti-semetic when you have Christian hating doctrine like that. laters pk

[quote]violatepropriety wrote:
I recieved this in an email this morning. I will admit ignorance on the Muslim point of view, and moderate knowledge on the Catholic/Protestant/Christian view.

This is not an invitation for a debate or an all out war on which religion is right. I dont care personally, and endorse non of the above.

What i am most interested in, is the point of this email, dealing with the Jihad. Is this true?

(email starts here)

GOT TO READ

The Jihad… Interesting - - - this appears to sum up what we are faced with.

Muslim religion is the fastest growing religion per capita in Canada and the United States especially in the minority race.

Allah or Jesus? By: Rick Mathes

Last month I attended my annual training session that’s required for maintaining my state prison security clearance. During the training session there was a presentation by three speakers representing the Roman Catholic, Protestant and Muslim faiths, who explained each of their belief systems.

I was particularly interested in what the Islamic Imam had to say. The Imam gave a great presentation of the basics of Islam, complete with a video.

After the presentations, time was provided for questions and answers. When it was my turn, I directed my question to the Imam and asked:

“Please, correct me if I’m wrong, but I understand that most Imams and clerics of Islam have declared a holy jihad [Holy war] against the infidels of the world. And, that by killing an infidel, which is a command to all Muslims, they are assured of a place in heaven. If that’s the case, can you give me the definition of an infidel?”

There was no disagreement with my statements and, without hesitation, he replied, “Non-believers!”

I responded, “So, let me make sure I have this straight. All followers of
Allah have been commanded to kill everyone who is not of your faith so they can go to Heaven. Is that correct?”

The _expression on his face changed from one of authority and command to that of a little boy who had just gotten caught with his hand in the cookie jar. He sheepishly replied, “Yes.”

I then stated, "Well, sir, I have a real problem trying to imagine Pope John Paul commanding all Catholics to kill those of your faith or Dr. Stanley ordering Protestants to do the same in order to go to Heaven.

The Imam was speechless.

I continued, “I also have problem with being your friend when you and your brother clerics are telling your followers to kill me. Let me ask you a question. Would you rather have your Allah who tells you to kill me in order to go to Heaven or my Jesus who tells me to love you because I am going to Heaven and He wants you to be with me?”

You could have heard a pin drop as the Imam hung his head in shame. Needless to say, the organizers and/or promoters of the ‘Diversification’ training seminar were not happy with Rick’s way of dealing with the Islamic Imam and exposing the truth about the Muslim’s beliefs.

I think everyone in the US and Canada should be required to read this, but with the liberal justice system, liberal media, and the ACLU, there is no way this will be widely publicized. Please pass this on to all your e-mail contacts. [/quote]

Bollocks. Theres no way a Muslim Imam would “hang his head in shame”. The whole story is just plain shit.

Yes, some of the more radical muslims’ have declraed Jihad, but not all Muslim’s are incredibly violent. Jesus is not superior to Allah. In fact, Jesus himself is quite important in the Islamic religion, if my understanding is correct.

And just because a religion seems to justifie violence, doesn’t mean that its followers are violent. Christianity doesn’t justify violence at all and would you look at it’s history: pure, nearly non-stop violence.

If everyone followed there reigion verbaitem then we’d have no christian soldiers, no mean christians, no divorce (b/c no one would ever be mean to their spouse), no hunger (charity), and communism would work perfectly (ironically, communism strictly forbids religion b/c it knows religion’s do not hold steady morals).

Finally, I have no idea where this man is getting “liberal media” and “liberal justice system” from. This sounds more like a “Fox News Alert” than anything else I’ve heard recently. It’s sensationalist garbage like this that pisses on the concepts of good journalism.

I respect their right to say it. They can shout it from the top of mountains, into radios and on TV, but I’m gonna be yellin back just as loud “Bull Shit!”.

The Muslim world is fucked up right now. The extremists take atvantage of the religion to gain power. The religion itself is not evil. The extremists are evil. Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Right-wing, Left-wing, Communist, Capitalist, virtually all extremists are dangerous.

I know plenty of Muslims who wouldn’t just down right disagree with this, they’d probably laugh their asses off at it.

This has been posted before and most replies stated that they believed that this never actually took place. I am among those that believe that this never happened. But who knows. Even if it did, I doubt most Muslims would agree with this.

I’ll admit that I was raised Catholic and know the Bible somewhat well. I’ve also read the Koran several times in an attempt to understand some of the current debates surrounding Islam. My thoughts are this: while I truly believe that most Muslims are genuinely good people, there are numerous passages in the Koran that I find rather disturbing. Based on some of these, I don’t find it difficult to see where groups like al Qaeda, the Egyptian Brotherhood, Wahabis, etc get their ideologies from.

Debate all you want. It’s open to interpretation. But in the end, it’s my opinion (based on what I know) that Christianty and Judaism are much more tolerant, accepting and loving religions.

[quote]Z-Man wrote:
It’s in an email, so it must be true!!!


[/quote]

That email has been pwned. Ignore my other post. It’s just beating a dead horse at this point.

That’s gotta be the dumbest email I’ve ever read. I’m Muslim, and in no way are we told to kill “non-believers”. Complete bullshit.

[quote]Z-Man wrote:
It’s in an email, so it must be true!!!


[/quote]

wow, excellent read thx!

Thanks everyone, i appreciate all the feedback, especially the snopes link. What is most scary is that the other 20-30 people that recieved that email with me this morning, probably accepted it as true.

I replied to all of them and sent the snopes link.

thanks again.

[quote]violatepropriety wrote:
Z-Man wrote:
It’s in an email, so it must be true!!!

wow, excellent read thx![/quote]

Thanks for having an open mind. There are a over billion muslims in the world, and if even 10% of us thought that way… well you can imagine the rest. I think extremists make up a very very small percentage. Unfortunately, even a small percentage of a billion is a very large number, and that is why we are dealing with these issues today.

I think the real question is Jesus, Allah or Ditka?

DB

Is anyone else worried about the “loving” cristians that shoot abortion doctors because “that’s what God wants”?

All religious texts contain conflicting information. It doesn’t matter what god you believe in, if you want to go on a killing rampage you will find a justification in your text of choice.

If you don’t know Allah, you don’t know Shiite!

Also, I believe Allah is simply the Arabic word for God.

[quote]Miserere wrote:
Is anyone else worried about the “loving” cristians that shoot abortion doctors because “that’s what God wants”?

All religious texts contain conflicting information. It doesn’t matter what god you believe in, if you want to go on a killing rampage you will find a justification in your text of choice.[/quote]

Here’s the difference: thats (1) extraordinarily rare, (2) against Christianity, and (3) critically, essentially universally condemned by Christians.

Jihad through violence is: (1) very common, (2) a central tentant of Islam, and (3) not condemned, and often accepted, by the Muslim establishment.

Of course the description of jihad in the above letter is wrong in a number of respects. But fudamentally Muslims are required to struggle against non-Muslims, historically through war as Mohammand did. It’s really only pagans and athiests that they were required to kill (or enslave); Christians and Jews were permitted to live as “dhimmis” if they paid a poll tax called a “jizya”.

And no Islamic cleric would say that, because under a principle called “Al-taqiyya” (Dissimulation/“Holy Lying”), Muslims are permitted to lie to non-Muslims, and do frequently.

It isn’t about particular crazy people finding justifications for murder. It’s about an ideology that radicalizes otherwise normal people into death-seeking fanatics.

In addition, I’m particularly worried about Islamic violence because it is at the center of essentially of the modern world’s violent conflicts. And those people are trying to kill people like me.

When the Methodists start plotting to kill thousands of people through hijacked airplanes, call me. Until then, no, I’m not worried about random radicallized nutjobs who happen to be Christians.

[quote]boomerlu wrote:
Also, I believe Allah is simply the Arabic word for God.[/quote]

That is true, the Arabic language Bible refers to God as Allah.

After 9/11 I did some research. I went to the source and began reading the Koran (Muslim holy book). I discovered that Muslims are commanded to respect those other religions of the Book (that is the Bible) such as Christianity and Judiasm. But, should there be war, than they are allowed to wage war if need be.

Muslims actually do accept Jesus Christ and Moses as great Prophets of God. Which kind of explains why Passion of the Christ was such a hit in many Islamic countries. They just believe that Mohammed (the name of their prophet) was the highest of all of them.

Muslims are commanded to convert or wage war on those who do not believe in one God, such as atheists and polytheists.

Also, Allah is the Muslim name for God, who they regard as the exact same God as the Christian God. Prophet Mohammed is the name of their prophet/founder, like Jesus Christ is to the Christians.

By the way, I’m neither Muslim nor Christian. Just wanted to clear up some things as I feel that such ignorance can be a dangerous thing.

Wahabis are a sect of Islam. They are pretty puratan, back to basics type. But they are a religious sect, not necessarily violent or anti-western.
Al-quaida is a terrorist group, NOT a religious sect composed of diverse minded people. They are all anti-western.

By the way, not all religious texts are self-contradicting. Some are, some aren’t. Different religions, even while agreeing on the basics, can vary widely in their philosophies.

I teach religious studies at a private Episcopal high school and I’m offering an Intro to Islam course this fall even though I myself am not a Muslim.

Nowhere in the Qur’an are believers instructed to kill non-believers. This sense of jihad as a purely physical, violent war is a perversion of Islam. The word in Arabic means “to exert utmost effort, to strive, struggle”. Muslim scholars identify several different types of jihad-- and, to be fair, one of them is violent-- but it is called for only when Muslims are prohibited from freely practicing their faith. I believe the US fought a little war over religious freedom itself some time ago.

[quote]xylitol wrote:
After 9/11 I did some research. I went to the source and began reading the Koran (Muslim holy book). I discovered that Muslims are commanded to respect those other religions of the Book (that is the Bible) such as Christianity and Judiasm. But, should there be war, than they are allowed to wage war if need be.

Muslims actually do accept Jesus Christ and Moses as great Prophets of God. Which kind of explains why Passion of the Christ was such a hit in many Islamic countries. They just believe that Mohammed (the name of their prophet) was the highest of all of them.

Muslims are commanded to convert or wage war on those who do not believe in one God, such as atheists and polytheists.

Also, Allah is the Muslim name for God, who they regard as the exact same God as the Christian God. Prophet Mohammed is the name of their prophet/founder, like Jesus Christ is to the Christians.

By the way, I’m neither Muslim nor Christian. Just wanted to clear up some things as I feel that such ignorance can be a dangerous thing.

Wahabis are a sect of Islam. They are pretty puratan, back to basics type. But they are a religious sect, not necessarily violent or anti-western.
Al-quaida is a terrorist group, NOT a religious sect composed of diverse minded people. They are all anti-western.

By the way, not all religious texts are self-contradicting. Some are, some aren’t. Different religions, even while agreeing on the basics, can vary widely in their philosophies.
[/quote]

Good post. Sound logic. Nice research.

::Thumbs-up::

[quote]Res Judicata wrote:

Here’s the difference: thats (1) extraordinarily rare, (2) against Christianity, and (3) critically, essentially universally condemned by Christians.

Jihad through violence is: (1) very common, (2) a central tentant of Islam, and (3) not condemned, and often accepted, by the Muslim establishment.
[/quote]

Untrue!

Jihad is not a basic Tenet of Islam.
the 5 pillars:

  1. Proclamation
  2. Prayer
  3. Fasting
  4. Zakat - Tax for the poor
  5. Hajj

Jihad in the military sense is only obligatory if you are attacked. And only while you are being attacked. You cannot be the agressor in any war, this is prohibited. Doesn’t mean that people don’t do this. But you can;t blame the teachings for the actions of the followers.

http://www.free-minds.org/war.htm

2:191 which is often quoted by Muslim Haters is a continuation of 2:190. If you take one without the other, you are misrepresenting. Doesn’t mean some muslims don;t only use 2:191 for their own agenda.

Jizya was a formal tax if living under a Muslim banner, as such you are afforded all the rights and protection of a muslim citizen, but are not required to serve militarily in times of war. You are also exempt from paying Zakat. Sort of like a Muslim having to pay US Taxes. Muslims were doing this 1400 years ago.

Excerpt from:

In return for the tax, those who paid the jizya were permitted to keep their non-Muslim religion. They could not serve in the military or bear arms, but their community was considered to be under the protection of the Muslim state, subject to their meeting certain conditions. Non-Muslims were also exempt from zakat, or mandatory charity paid by Muslims. If someone refused to pay the jizya, he could be imprisoned, according to Abu Yusuf.[4]

In modern times, the jizya and zakat taxes have been replaced by more modern forms of taxation.

Untrue!

Only to be used to save your life… ie. Falsely denouncing faith under torture or threat of death. Long article here.

[quote]

It isn’t about particular crazy people finding justifications for murder. It’s about an ideology that radicalizes otherwise normal people into death-seeking fanatics.

In addition, I’m particularly worried about Islamic violence because it is at the center of essentially of the modern world’s violent conflicts. And those people are trying to kill people like me.

When the Methodists start plotting to kill thousands of people through hijacked airplanes, call me. Until then, no, I’m not worried about random radicallized nutjobs who happen to be Christians. [/quote]

Pretty well all of what you write is your opinion and not based in fact.

Next time you want to show up for a battle of wits, have the courtesy to come equipped.