T Nation

Allah or Jesus....

Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 9:22 AM
Subject: Allah or Jesus

Allah or Jesus

Allah or Jesus?
By Rick Mattes

Last month I attended my annual training session that’s required for maintaining my state prison security clearance. During the training session there was a presentation by three speakers representing the Roman Catholic, Protestant, and Muslim faiths, who explained each of their belief systems.

I was particularly interested in what the Islamic Imam had to say. The Imam gave a great presentation of the basics of Islam, complete with a video.

After the presentations, time was provided for questions and answers.

When it was my turn, I directed my question to the Imam and asked: “Please, correct me if I’m wrong, but I understand that most Imams and clerics of Islam have declared a holy jihad [Holy war] against the infidels of the world. And, that by killing an infidel, which is a command to all Muslims, they are assured of a place in heaven. If that’s the case, can you give me the definition of an infidel?”

There was no disagreement with my statements and, without hesitation, he replied, “Non-believers!”

I responded, “So, let me make sure I have this straight. All followers of Allah have been commanded to kill everyone who is not of your faith so they can go to Heaven. Is that correct?”

The expression on his face changed from one of authority and command to that of a little boy who had just gotten caught with his hand in the cookie jar. He sheepishly replied, “Yes.”

I then stated, “Well, sir, I have a real problem trying to imagine Pope John Paul commanding all Catholics to kill those of your faith or Dr. Stanley ordering Protestants to do the same in order to go to Heaven!”

The Imam was speechless.

I continued, “I also have a problem with being your friend when you and your brother clerics are telling your followers to kill me. Let me ask you one more question. Would you rather have your Allah who tells you to kill me in order to go to Heaven, or my Jesus who tells me to love you because I am going to Heaven and He wants you to be there, too?”

You could have heard a pin drop as the Imam hung his head in shame.

Needless to say, the organizers and/or promoters of the 'Diversification' training seminar were not happy with Rick's way of dealing with the Islamic Imam and exposing the truth about the Muslim's beliefs.

I think everyone in the U.S. should be required to read this, but with the liberal justice system, liberal media, and the ACLU, there is no way this will be widely publicized. Please pass this on to all your e-mail contacts.

This is a true story and the author, Rick Mattes, is a well-known leader in prison ministry.

 
 
 

Bullshit.

I don’t belive in either one, so where does that leave me? But I agree, that story sounds like total bullshit to me.

That simply isn’t true. either the Imam was an idiot, or this is a lie. Or both.

That is a complete load of crap; even if this did happen then it?s an inaccurate description of Islam. Here are a few things I have learned about Islam from some of my Muslim acquaintances:

  1. Muslims actually believe in Jesus and regards him as a prophet; they do not believe him to be the son of God though.

  2. Islam is a continuation of the Abrahamic religions, Muslims believe in the Old Testament, the Torah; they believe that God passed down the Koran as an extension of the previous edicts.

3.There is no ‘Clergy’ in Islam i.e. formal relgious order, there is no pope or some uber-Imam, ‘Imam’ only means some who is supposedly ‘learned’. There is no formal training for Imams.

4.‘Allah’ does not refer to some ‘God’ that only Muslims believe in, it actually means ‘God’ so anybody who believes in God whether its Judaism or any other religion fall into this category, the only remit is that they believe in the oneness of God. The word ‘infidel’ refers to non-believers i.e. those do not believe in the oneness of God. Hands up who believes there is more than one God?.

5.Muslims are not guaranteed heaven if they kill ‘infidels’, this may only happen under extreme circumstances such as Muslims defending themselves and specifically only in times and then only in the past when the religion was being established. If it was the actual case that Muslims were required to kill ‘infidels’ to go to heaven or any other reason then why aren’t the 2 billion or so Muslims around the world killing every ‘infidel’ - that includes the 400 million Muslims in Pakistan who were allied with the US in its war against the Taliban in Afghanistan.

  1. I guess what Rick is trying to portray through ignorance and paranoia is that Muslims are bloodthirsty and it requires them to kill non-Muslims. If you look at the world then you know that this is BS because its only a small percentage who are actually perpetrating acts of terrorism and then for the most part their acts are based more so on political motivation rather than religious.

This is a hoax:
www.trendmicro.com/vinfo/hoaxes/hoax5.asp?HName="Kill-All+Imam"+Hoax

but but but…it HAS to be true! It came in his email!!! If it’s on the internet or in email it MUST be true, right?

You need to verify this stuff before you post it. Seriously. I go to snopes.com for most of this stuff now or else I just use common sense. This one could have been filtered out with just common sense.

Ughh, Come on tme, dont be a stupid ass…if it’s on TV, then it must be true. ;O)

The tard who posted this wanted to some how take a shot at the “liberal media”

Have we not had enough of this liberal v. conserv. shit on here?

Never argue Religion or politics with anyone…

I’d like to point out that a subtext here is that Muslims “know that they’re wrong,” as evidenced by the Imam “hanging his head in shame.” This reinforces the fundamentalist Christian notion that those who are not Christian have made that decision as a conscious rejection of Christ; that is, “deep down” they “know” that he’s the son of God, but choose to deny him all the same. It also makes it much easier to attack an “enemy” when he becomes a knowing perpetrator of evil, rather than a person with rivalling, perhaps irreconcilable, interests.

Portraying all Muslims as evil is ignorant and irresponsible.

“3.There is no ‘Clergy’ in Islam i.e. formal relgious order, there is no pope or some uber-Imam, ‘Imam’ only means some who is supposedly ‘learned’. There is no formal training for Imams.”

…which is exactly why you find fatwas saying to kill infidels, and others that preach peace.

Isnt this the same guy who fowards porn websites in emails?

steady on Swain!!!, i am a muslim and under no uncertain terms have we been ordered to kill non muslime becasue they are non muslims, it is totally forbidden, it is people like that ‘imam’ who make people say islam is extreme etc etc and small minded people like urself for beleiving one indivudal and spreading it around like gospel.

Jihad, do u even What what that means???, it does NOT mean holy way,

As for jesus i have a great belief in him and what he taught, Jesus is a prophet of allah and i hold him in the same regard as i do the prophet Muhammud.

unfortunately i am in a hurry otherwise i would be able to provide a detailed meaning of Jihad

If anyone has any question regarding islam and its beliefs, don’t hesitate to pm me

One question,
(and I’m not trying to start shit here)

How can you believe that Jesus was a prophet and a good man?

He said himself that he was the way, the truth, and the light. “No one can come to the Father, but through me.”

So, it is evident, that if you don’t believe him to be the son of God, then he’s insane. Because no sane ‘good’ man would make claims to be one with God. Not even Muhammed made those claims.

I’m just asking for clarification. I’ve always been confused on how people can think him to be a good man and ignore his words.

Either he is or he isn’t. He’s either the Son of God or an insane mo’fo’

My 2cc

By the way, I’ve met some cool muslims who didn’t want to kill my non-believing ass. People are just ignorant in this world, on both sides.

Anyone would read that and know it was bullshit. And anti-Muslim bullshit, by the including the “head down in shame” comment, as nephorm has astutely noted.

However, if Tokman tells us that “jihad” refers to a “spiritual struggle” in the heart and mind of every Muslim, then he is denying the main use of the term “jihad” throughout Muslim theological history.

Yes, “jihad” as it relates to the relationship with any non-Muslim community refers to obligation of armed struggle. We are still waiting for the Islam of Karen Armstrong and John Esposito to actually be the Islam of every Muslim on the planet, and we’re still waiting for Karen Armstrong and John Esposito (and Tokman) to stop rationalizing the beliefs and behavior of the Muslims who aren’t embarassed by the actual meaning of “jihad.”

Brian,

I am not rationalising the concept of Jihad for those who use it for war without justification. Yes, Jihad can mean a struggle that involves war, i have no embarrasement in that.

In order for Jihad to be used in a war context there must be valid reason.

I don’t beleive in the suicide bombing initiated by groups such as Hamas, Al Qaeda etc.

I do beleive that the people of Palestine are in a situation of Jihad. Their homeland is occupied illegaly and they are fighting for their lives.

Tokman writes:

“In order for Jihad to be used in war context there must be a valid reason.”

Um, shall we post what conditions the Koran and the hadith discuss as “valid reasons,” starting with what happens if non-believers are not receptive to Islam by friendliness and discussion? Shall we post some of the hadith that actually discuss “jihad,” the VASSSSST majority of them “in war context”?

“I do beleive that the people of Palestine are in a situation of Jihad. Their homeland is occupied illegaly and they are fighting for their lives.”

Actually they are fighting for their deaths. You know that Hamas and al-Quaeda are on the same page on this one. They say, “we will win because you love life and we love death,” as was said on the videotape for the bombing in Madrid. It’s called homocidal nihilism, Tokman. And peoples who want to be members of a civil society do not make excuses for it ANYWHERE.

The imams who call for suicide killings send their children to schools in Europe and the U.S. to escape that fate. Women who have shamed their family by becoming pregnant out of wedlock or by a man other than their husband are forced to blow themselves up around Israeli children or face “honor killing” from their Palestinian brethren. Some liberation. This is mental enslavement. This is a death cult that feeds parasitically on the spiritual language of Islam.

Maybe its true, maybe it isn’t. The fact is, some muslims are using there religion as a crutch to attack the U.S. The U.S. is a land of free choice, where you are free to choose your religion. When people of any certain group decide to attack the U.S., the black man, the white man, the catholic and the protestant, the hillbilly and the gangster must all shoulder arms. A group of muslim terrorists are not all that different from the IRA. There Irish, and they hate the protestant brits in the six counties in northern Ireland. Yet the brits don’t hate all catholics. I am against prejudice. I think WE should ALL hate, EVERYONE who would intentionally bring harm to the U.S. whether that be al-kaida (cant spell it, I am sorry), north koreans, or any other group. We wont solve this problem by being against muslims. I bet right now, that there are muslim Americans fighting along side catholics and protestants and jews. They are there because they love the U.S., not because there religion tells them too.

worst troll ever.

I don’t have a religion, and I think the world would be better without them, but that fake email is really annoying.

Tokman,

You seem to be playing a semantical game with the word Jihad.

First, you say: [quote]Jihad, do u even [know] what that means???, it does NOT mean holy [war][/quote]

Then, you state: [quote]Yes, Jihad can mean a struggle that involves war, i have no embarrasement in that. [/quote]

Obviously, Jihad refers to a religious struggle (i.e., it relates to religion), so therfore it is indeed holy. If it pertains to a war, then it is indeed fair to say “holy war.” Can’t you understand why Muslims get such a bad reputation when you play these word games? When Arafat calls for “Jihad, Jihad, Jihad…” at a rally with people chanting “Death to Israel” then I think its safe to assume that he’s not referring to an internal struggle against temptation. He’s taking about holy war. To imply otherwise is just plain insulting.

Also, you made the mistake of referring to Israel’s existence as an illegal occupation of Palestinian homeland. Uhh…are you aware that the Israelis are the only ones whose language and religion are native to the land in question? Are you aware that the Palestinian Arabs didn’t even go by that name until AFTER Israel became a state. What kind of nation names itself after it loses its “homeland?” Just thought I’d point those things out! No need to retort…we obviously aren’t going to agree on this.

Look, man…I’ve studied Islam, and it definitely has some nice apsects. But, presuming Jews and Christians each fucked up the word of God and fell out of His favour is no way to win our hearts over. And that is precisely what the Koran does. And the tolerance called for in the Koran (towards Jews and Christians) isn’t exactly appealing from a Judeo-Christian perspective.

The fact that some Muslims are bent on murder and terror isn’t the fault of all Muslims…but it would help if most Muslims didn’t try to defend those very same people and their actions/causes. It makes for a very awkward presentation of reality. Just re-read your own posts (critically). Jeez!!!

For example, you said that you don’t agree with Hamas and Al Qieda suicide bombings, but that you support Palestinian Jihad. Well, what exactly does that mean?