T Nation

All for My Security

[quote]orion wrote:

I do not care what “liberals” think.

Even if they were against waterboarding for all the wrong reasons it could still be dead wrong.[/quote]

Could be wrong? Are you actually leaving a crack in the door for someone to say it “could be right”?

It hasn’t so far. This war was fought too nicely. Bush was trying to be compassionate when he should have been using extreme prejudice. We would have been out of Iraq within 2 years.

[quote]Plus, if you really want to know what effect torturing has on the “enemy” watch one of the videos of a beheading of one of the Western hostages.

Seriously, afterwards you know why torture and things like Abu Ghareib hurt the US.

Because Arabs have the same gut reaction, multiplied by three. [/quote]

You think that the beheading was a retaliation for abu Grahib? Dude - that is just who we are fighting. “A day in the life”, if you will.

But if they want tit for tat, why not give it to them?

To me, it is about Bush being ashamed of the power of the US. You know as well as I do that the US could end the fighting within days by completely obliterating the country, and its neighbors.

The whole world knows this. Yet we seem to fight apologetically.

I’m having trouble here understanding why someone from another country, who enjoys said benefits of that country would have the time, and the mind to constantly spew crap about how messed up he thinks someone elses government is.

Am I missing something? Is the hate so strong? What have we done to this poor soul to make him so obsessed with American politics and policy?

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
I’m having trouble here understanding why someone from another country, who enjoys said benefits of that country would have the time, and the mind to constantly spew crap about how messed up he thinks someone elses government is.

Am I missing something? Is the hate so strong? What have we done to this poor soul to make him so obsessed with American politics and policy?[/quote]

Could it have something to do with the US constantly terrorizing, bombing and invading other countries?

I really don’t think anyone would give a damn if you stuck to defending your own borders.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
I’m having trouble here understanding why someone from another country, who enjoys said benefits of that country would have the time, and the mind to constantly spew crap about how messed up he thinks someone elses government is.

Am I missing something? Is the hate so strong? What have we done to this poor soul to make him so obsessed with American politics and policy?

Could it have something to do with the US constantly terrorizing, bombing and invading other countries?

I really don’t think anyone would give a damn if you stuck to defending your own borders.[/quote]

Constantly? We are in ONE war now. We have bombed 2 countries. 1 with a sadistic dictator, the other a Taliban infested breeding ground. The world was behind us no matter how warped your view is today.

Terrorize?..hardly, we give the enemy “rights”. We help establish Government FOR THE PEOPLE. We help nations gain a SURPLUS in revenue and work cooperatively on the hand over to the new Gov.

We don’t kill our women, hang our gays, we don’t burn flags and call for death in the name of God, we are far more tolerant than these nations you say we terrorize… and we provide the most aid to the globe overall.

Come again?

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
Name me a liberal who has objected to waterboarding the enemy who has a single public statement expressing that they want our own waterboarding of our personnel to stop???

Yes, because if someone hasn’t spoken out against something, they must believe in it.

Yup, if everyone in a given group (e.g. the group comprised of liberals that complain in the media about terrorists being waterboarded) screams loudly and repeatedly and with great indignation about a thing being done to one group

they know it’s occurring to (terrorists) and not at all about it occurring to another group that they know about (our own servicemen) then it indeed indeed fair and correct to conclude that they are more bothered about terrorists being made to experience the unpleasantness of waterboarding than our own people being made to experience it.

They complain about the former but not the latter because the former bothers them, and the latter, they don’t give a flip about. It’s not really that waterboarding is too awful for them, it’s that it is those poor terrorists being waterboarded that causes them to cry a river.

If you honestly believe that, you are in a sad, sad position. Did you ever think that perhaps they understand that we CAN stop water boarding, while we CAN’T stop terrorists from water boarding our soldiers… unless aren’t THERE to torture in the first place?

Ever heard of holding a moral high ground? Or, at the VERY least, appearing to.

I still don’t understand why the government doesn’t SAY they’ll stop… move everyone out of gitmo and then keep doing it. Supporting it in public on the international level is making us look like fucking dicks.

In short:

It isn’t that they care about the terrorists, it’s that they care about America’s Moral High Ground and PR.

Get it? Got it? Good.[/quote]

Yeah, if you say “please” enough, the terrorists will just give up the information. I say do what it takes to get the information you need and don’t alert the media…This is a war, I haven’t found a pleasant one in history yet.

If somebody has info you need and they aren’t giving it up, do what you have to to get it…Beat them, skin them burn them what ever…Torture saves lives. It is a necessary evil especially in war time.

I do not support it on a wide scale, only those “high value” targets really sometimes it has to be done.

“We are in ONE war now. We have bombed 2 countries.”

Priceless.

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
I’m having trouble here understanding why someone from another country, who enjoys said benefits of that country would have the time, and the mind to constantly spew crap about how messed up he thinks someone elses government is.

Am I missing something? Is the hate so strong? What have we done to this poor soul to make him so obsessed with American politics and policy?[/quote]

It’s called jihad…That’s part of how it works, but it only influences to stupid.

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
“We are in ONE war now. We have bombed 2 countries.”

Priceless.
[/quote]

We stay in Iraq because of terrorists. Originally when the world was with us we ousted Saddam, did the job we came for… then factions of terrorists came into the picture. Therefore it is one war on terror.

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
Constantly? We are in ONE war now. We have bombed 2 countries. 1 with a sadistic dictator, the other a Taliban infested breeding ground. The world was behind us no matter how warped your view is today. [/quote]

On Afghanistan, you could safely say that the world was behind you.

Iraq is a completely different matter.

You give?

And there I thought the inalienability of those rights was settled long ago.

Terrorism is violence (or the threat of violence) against innocent people. The case that the US engaged in state terrorism is easy to make.

Tell that to the Chileans, Guatemalans, Iranians, Haitians, etc.

I’m certain they’d disagree with you.

You want a medal for that?

Get real! Orion (if that is the person you had in mind in your first post) would be the first to slam a Taliban-sympathetic Afghan defending his/her government’s actions.

Honestly, what you do in the privacy of your own home (or in this case, border) is of limited interest to me. Your bombs and soldiers are more worrisome. And you can be sure that it’s a sentiment shared by plenty, if not the majority of people.

In absolute terms, yes. Now, do you think it makes up for the other shit the US does “to the globe”?

No, thank you. That was quite enough.

[quote]pat wrote:
Yeah, if you say “please” enough, the terrorists will just give up the information. I say do what it takes to get the information you need and don’t alert the media…This is a war, I haven’t found a pleasant one in history yet.

If somebody has info you need and they aren’t giving it up, do what you have to to get it…Beat them, skin them burn them what ever…Torture saves lives. It is a necessary evil especially in war time.

I do not support it on a wide scale, only those “high value” targets really sometimes it has to be done.[/quote]

No where in my post did I say I was totally opposed to any and all torture.

In fact, I’m pretty sure I said I was wondering why we didn’t just SAY we were against it… and then continue to use it on the KNOWN guilty parties.

So basically… I agree with your final, conclusive statement.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
orion wrote:

I do not care what “liberals” think.

Even if they were against waterboarding for all the wrong reasons it could still be dead wrong.

Could be wrong? Are you actually leaving a crack in the door for someone to say it “could be right”?

The “liberal” idea of how to treat prisoners is simply a non-issue, not politically, I give you that, but in the grand scheme of things that goes beyond party politics.

It hasn’t so far. This war was fought too nicely. Bush was trying to be compassionate when he should have been using extreme prejudice. We would have been out of Iraq within 2 years.

Plus, if you really want to know what effect torturing has on the “enemy” watch one of the videos of a beheading of one of the Western hostages.

Seriously, afterwards you know why torture and things like Abu Ghareib hurt the US.

Because Arabs have the same gut reaction, multiplied by three.

You think that the beheading was a retaliation for abu Grahib? Dude - that is just who we are fighting. “A day in the life”, if you will.

But if they want tit for tat, why not give it to them?

To me, it is about Bush being ashamed of the power of the US. You know as well as I do that the US could end the fighting within days by completely obliterating the country, and its neighbors.

The whole world knows this. Yet we seem to fight apologetically.

[/quote]

  1. Just saying that a does not equal b.

Obviously everyone not agreeing with me is a flaming, raging, no holds barred homosexual.

And dead wrong on top of it.

  1. Was the war fought too nicely? Not really.

Given your narrative of “spreading freedom and democracy” you could not have nuked them.

Sorry.

The restraints you feel are made of your own BS.

That is kind of amusing though.

  1. I claimed that be headings were in any way tied to Abu Gareibh? When did I do that and how?

I claimed that you could get their visceral reaction by watching a video of a beheading.

It does not make you want to roll over and spread ´em. it makes you want to kill them.

They feel the same.

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
I’m having trouble here understanding why someone from another country, who enjoys said benefits of that country would have the time, and the mind to constantly spew crap about how messed up he thinks someone elses government is.

Am I missing something? Is the hate so strong? What have we done to this poor soul to make him so obsessed with American politics and policy?[/quote]

Not that your question is not a legitimate one, but why does it matter?

Not that you would, or could, not know if you had read my posts, but I could hate your country more than Khomeini and I could still have a point.

So you can decide to focus on my real or imagined obsessions, as if they mattered in the grand scheme of things, or if I make some points, that have, however annoying they may be , some merit.

[quote]lixy wrote:
I really don’t think anyone would give a damn if you stuck to defending your own borders.[/quote]

If we threw out all the muslims would this count as defending our borders?

When Muslims are busy waging Jihad across the globe against every non-Muslim nation which borders a Muslim nation, who the hell are you to tell us how to conduct our national security?

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
“We are in ONE war now. We have bombed 2 countries.”

Priceless.
[/quote]

Would be funny if Germany never started a war.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Tell that to the Chileans, Guatemalans, Iranians, Haitians, etc.

I’m certain they’d disagree with you.
[/quote]

Should I make a long list of the nations fighting Muslim extremists? I’m sure most of these nations would disagree with you.

[quote]lixy wrote:
In absolute terms, yes. Now, do you think it makes up for the other shit the US does “to the globe”?

Come again?

No, thank you. That was quite enough.[/quote]

Tell me, do you see people DYING and risking their lives to get to any Muslim country? Which country would that be? Yet there are Cubans, Mexicans and others who risk their lives and die to come to America. I think that alone makes up for any of the shit you constantly fling at us.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Schwarzfahrer wrote:
“We are in ONE war now. We have bombed 2 countries.”

Priceless.

Would be funny if Germany never started a war.[/quote]

See, I just had to take some time off of masturbating just to type this:

“Yawn”

Don´t ever waste my time with stupid shit like that again.

Ahhh, 70 years ago your great-great-parents were so baaaad, our atrocities hardly matter!

Really?

[quote]orion wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
Schwarzfahrer wrote:
“We are in ONE war now. We have bombed 2 countries.”

Priceless.

Would be funny if Germany never started a war.

See, I just had to take some time off of masturbating just to type this:

“Yawn”

Don´t ever waste my time with stupid shit like that again.

Ahhh, 70 years ago your great-great-parents were so baaaad, our atrocities hardly matter!

Really?

[/quote]

Someone has been licking the frogs again.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
orion wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
Schwarzfahrer wrote:
“We are in ONE war now. We have bombed 2 countries.”

Priceless.

Would be funny if Germany never started a war.

See, I just had to take some time off of masturbating just to type this:

“Yawn”

Don´t ever waste my time with stupid shit like that again.

Ahhh, 70 years ago your great-great-parents were so baaaad, our atrocities hardly matter!

Really?

Someone has been licking the frogs again.

[/quote]

I know.

I am just trying to draw attention to it.

Plus, whatever your sexual interests might include, it is a stretch to think that I share them.

[quote]orion wrote:
rainjack wrote:
orion wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
Schwarzfahrer wrote:
“We are in ONE war now. We have bombed 2 countries.”

Priceless.

Would be funny if Germany never started a war.

See, I just had to take some time off of masturbating just to type this:

“Yawn”

Don´t ever waste my time with stupid shit like that again.

Ahhh, 70 years ago your great-great-parents were so baaaad, our atrocities hardly matter!

Really?

Someone has been licking the frogs again.

I know.

I am just trying to draw attention to it.

Plus, whatever your sexual interests might include, it is a stretch to think that I share them.

[/quote]

What does your licking frogs have to do with my sexual interests?

Please believe when I say that my interests include neither amphibians, nor austrian stoners.