Alex Rodriguez and Steroids

Off Topic
21

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
I will never be surprised by any name linked to steroids in baseball. The only exceptions would be Aaron Miles and possibly David Eckstein… lol even then stranger things have happened.

There is no reason to believe that any less than 90% of players have used steroids at some point between 1985 and 2003. After that I’d still bet that well over 50% have been using hGH. Don’t tell me that only 100 out of 700 tested positive because we are well aware that the 2003 tests were not comprehensive of all the possible anabolic compounds available to players, not to mention the guys using (undectable) hGH.

I can understand why people are upset when they hear about guys using steroids (especially A-rod because he was “going to break the record clean”; don’t get me started on how retarded that line of thinking is because every single record is/will be influenced by PED’s (AAS, peptides, amphetimines)) but this is reality and I don’t think it’s that big of a deal anymore, now that we know that every single player in the league was using.

I do think it was smart (well smart as far effects vs. side effects go, not smart in terms of discretion) for A-rod to use Primobolan. Seems like the perfect drug for baseball players, besides growth hormone. Bonds and Palmeiro were morons for using Winstrol. Why a baseball player would want to use a drug that destroys the joints is beyond my comprehension.

The bigger issue in this whole thing is why an anonymous test was not kept anonymous. Two wrongs don’t make a right as far as cheaters go (MLB cheating the players’ trust). [/quote]

bonez i dont now too much about specific roids but can you tell me why Primobolan is good for a baseball player?

22

I like how no one gives a shit about mediocre players who test positive but get all upset about great players when they test positive.

Fucking ridiculous. I am DONE with baseball. Not allowing great players like Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod, McGuire in the hall of fame. (they won’t) They are a bunch of hypocrites

23

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote:
Depends on the definition of a better player. Stats vs. Winning. Even in a team sport that logic applies.

So by that logic, Albert Pujols is not as good as Ryan Howard or Carlos Pena since their teams went to the World Series this year and his didn’t make the playoffs?

Not trying to highjack this thread, it just annoys me when people say that Jeter is better than ARod because of some notion that he is a “winner” when ARod is better at baseball in every conceivable way.[/quote]

I agree 100% that arod is a statistically better player than jeter.

Albert Pujols is a World Series champion. What are you talking about? I understand the point you were trying to make (a shitty one) but you chose a poor example.

When I am talking about a whether a player is good or not while considering winning I am talking about over the course of a career. That should be obvious.

There is no “notion” that Jeter is a winner. It is a fact that he has 4 world series rings. It is also a fact that he should have won the MVP instead of Justin Morneau. Arod is better in everything besides helping his team win the most important of games.

24

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
jtrinsey wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote:
Depends on the definition of a better player. Stats vs. Winning. Even in a team sport that logic applies.

So by that logic, Albert Pujols is not as good as Ryan Howard or Carlos Pena since their teams went to the World Series this year and his didn’t make the playoffs?

Not trying to highjack this thread, it just annoys me when people say that Jeter is better than ARod because of some notion that he is a “winner” when ARod is better at baseball in every conceivable way.

I agree 100% that arod is a statistically better player than jeter.

Albert Pujols is a World Series champion. What are you talking about? I understand the point you were trying to make (a shitty one) but you chose a poor example.

When I am talking about a whether a player is good or not while considering winning I am talking about over the course of a career. That should be obvious.

There is no “notion” that Jeter is a winner. It is a fact that he has 4 world series rings. It is also a fact that he should have won the MVP instead of Justin Morneau. Arod is better in everything besides helping his team win the most important of games. [/quote]

Jeter is a winner but not in the sense you may think. Jeter is a winner in that he plays winning baseball. People who have not played at a high-level (i.e. major college, minors, MLB, etc.) are wrapped-up in stats. They matter, sure. But there is a different sense of who best help your team win within the team itself. And that’s not the “rah-rah” guy or the leadership thing (ala Jason Veritek, et al). No. It’s the guy who gets the most out of every play, all the time. It’s the guy who can see when to take the extra base…and take it. It’s the guy who turns two when he should turn two. It’s the guy who knows when to steal and does it. It’s the guy gives you an at-bat, every time.

Jeter gives an at-bat every time he digs in. A-Rod can rake, no question. But I see him give away ABs, much more often than Jeter. Having big numbers guys on your team is great. But give me guys who do the things that help you win every day. That’s what matters when you play a lot of games (i.e. 162). Solid defense. Good baserunning. Baseball instints. Give me that guy. Between Jeter and A-Rod…it’s Jeter.

25

[quote]crod266 wrote:

bonez i dont now too much about specific roids but can you tell me why Primobolan is good for a baseball player?[/quote]

Well primo is known to be very mild side effect wise and very effective at building lean (“bloat-less”) muscle in high dosages. The reason why I think it’s good (just my opinion) is because of how mild it is. It doesn’t convert to estrogen so bloating is not an issue, nor is gyno. It binds more strongly to the Androgen Receptor than testosterone, allowing for a greater effect on fat loss. Primobolan users usually do not notice a huge increase in muscle mass, as they would on a cycle of nandrolone and testosterone with an identical diet, but they say they hold muscle very easily in a caloric deficit. For a baseball player travelling ~200 days per year you can probably imagine that a strict meal schedule is difficult to follow. Also when I say that you wont notice an increase in muscle mass it doesn’t mean you wont get stronger. Steroids will allow the muscles you do have to “work better”, for lack of technical explanation that I can not provide.

Stronger drugs like trenbolone or dianabol would be awful for baseball players (or any athletes during season) because the physical effects besides muscle building become difficult to tolerate for a long period of time. There are plenty of pros and cons of each AAS, I just picked those two out because of known effects like decreased cardiovascular performance (on tren) and cramping and ‘back pumps’ (dbol).

Arod admitted to not actually knowing what he was using but whoever was advising him chose a good drug for performance enhancement in baseball.

If I didn’t want to gain much muscle but wanted to keep the muscle I did have and had unlimited funds I would go with primo.

I’m leaving a lot of stuff out, out of ignorance and unintentional ommission, but you can get the idea.

26

[quote]ProwlCat wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote:
jtrinsey wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote:
Depends on the definition of a better player. Stats vs. Winning. Even in a team sport that logic applies.

So by that logic, Albert Pujols is not as good as Ryan Howard or Carlos Pena since their teams went to the World Series this year and his didn’t make the playoffs?

Not trying to highjack this thread, it just annoys me when people say that Jeter is better than ARod because of some notion that he is a “winner” when ARod is better at baseball in every conceivable way.

I agree 100% that arod is a statistically better player than jeter.

Albert Pujols is a World Series champion. What are you talking about? I understand the point you were trying to make (a shitty one) but you chose a poor example.

When I am talking about a whether a player is good or not while considering winning I am talking about over the course of a career. That should be obvious.

There is no “notion” that Jeter is a winner. It is a fact that he has 4 world series rings. It is also a fact that he should have won the MVP instead of Justin Morneau. Arod is better in everything besides helping his team win the most important of games.

Jeter is a winner but not in the sense you may think. Jeter is a winner in that he plays winning baseball. People who have not played at a high-level (i.e. major college, minors, MLB, etc.) are wrapped-up in stats. They matter, sure. But there is a different sense of who best help your team win within the team itself. And that’s not the “rah-rah” guy or the leadership thing (ala Jason Veritek, et al). No. It’s the guy who gets the most out of every play, all the time. It’s the guy who can see when to take the extra base…and take it. It’s the guy who turns two when he should turn two. It’s the guy who knows when to steal and does it. It’s the guy gives you an at-bat, every time.

Jeter gives an at-bat every time he digs in. A-Rod can rake, no question. But I see him give away ABs, much more often than Jeter. Having big numbers guys on your team is great. But give me guys who do the things that help you win every day. That’s what matters when you play a lot of games (i.e. 162). Solid defense. Good baserunning. Baseball instints. Give me that guy. Between Jeter and A-Rod…it’s Jeter.[/quote]

Absolutely. It may be a little difficult to prove Arod gives away more ab’s than Jeter. The fact that Arod makes it look so easy (when he is succeeding) can make it appear that he is not trying as hard when he fails. I would never acuse Arod of not trying. Even on defense, people forget that Arod was and probably still would be a better SS than Jeter.

I do know what you mean though. Jeter is a ‘gamer’ and Arod is less of a ‘gamer’. My point was that Jeter has great career stats AND the rings to back everything up.

27

Hasn’t Jeter been on the same teams as “loser” ARod over the past few years?

Does Jeter make his pitchers pitch better? Does he help the other guys bat better?

2004 ALCS
Jeter: .200/.333/.233
ARod: .258/.378/.516

So basically, if Jeter hadn’t choked so hard, ARod would probably have a World Series ring and he’d be a winner too. What else should ARod have done, stepped in the batter’s box and taken some ABs for Jeter?

You can take a lineup of:
C: Carlos Ruiz
1B: Kevin Youkilis
2B: Tad Iguchi
3B: Pedro Feliz
SS: David Eckstein
OF: Scott Podsednik
OF: Coco Crisp
OF: Juan Encarnacion

who all have World Series rings

And I’ll take take:
C: Joe Mauer
1B: Mark Teixeira
2B: Rickie Weeks
3B: Aramis Ramirez
SS: Hanley Ramirez
OF: Carlos Lee
OF: Josh Hamilton
OF: Nick Markakis

All of whom, if memory serves me correctly, have not made it past the first round of the playoffs and my team will beat yours a billion to one.

“Team Success” is the dumbest argument ever in baseball, a sport which is almost entirely individual. I don’t even like ARod, I just can’t stand the Jeter love-affair.

28

[quote]red04 wrote:
They mentioned it on ESPN sometime in the last 2 days, that if the current trend of keeping a player out of the Hall after even a hint of possible PED use, that the 5 of the top 10 home run hitters of all time, a top 5 all time pitcher(tons of debate where in that he lands), and possibly 2 of the 3 greatest offensive forces ever(depending on how A-Rod finishes his career) will not be inducted. All because of the court of public opinion, not because baseball is mandating that their stats be stricken from the books. Sports Writers are so entrenched in their nostalgic belief of the game it’s unbelievable.

Also I had no idea Winstrol was bad for joints(I haven’t boned up on my steroid knowledge yet, no plans to use for quite a long time if ever). Wonder if the positive effects of Bonds usage outweighed the playing time he lost due to having fucked up knees.[/quote]

Well I should have been more clear. I’m not actually sure if winstrol causes long term physical damage to the joints (it may, but I have no evidence either way) but I do know that it causes plenty of joint pain during use. Bonds had surgeries on his knees but I dont know for certain that wintrol was the cause of the damage. If I was a guy playing 162 games in 200 days I sure as hell would want my joints to feel as good as possible.

29

Oh boy, this is gonna be fun…

[quote]ProwlCat wrote:
Jeter gives an at-bat every time he digs in. A-Rod can rake, no question. But I see him give away ABs, much more often than Jeter. [/quote]

Career on-base percentages:
ARod: .389
Jeter: .387

Judging by the strict baseball definition of “outs” and “not out”, which, incidentally, happen to be the only ones that matter on the scoreboard (you know, the thing that indicates winning and losing), they have both given away ABs at almost the same exact rate throughout their career.

[quote]
Having big numbers guys on your team is great. But give me guys who do the things that help you win every day.[/quote]

Like… hitting (ARod is better)
Fielding (ARod is better)
Baserunning (pretty similar, maybe a slight edge to ARod but call it even)

Is Jeter a better pitcher or something?

[quote]
That’s what matters when you play a lot of games (i.e. 162). Solid defense. Good baserunning. Baseball instints. Give me that guy. Between Jeter and A-Rod…it’s Jeter.[/quote]

Almost every defensive metric known to man rates ARod as being better than Jeter. Remember in 2002 and 2003 when Jeter DIDN’T win a Gold Glove. You know who did? Oh yeah… ARod. Then ARod came to NY and Jeter selfishly would not change positions even though ARod is a better shortstop. Gold Gloves are a terrible indicator of actual defensive value, but in this case, both statistics AND subjective opinion agree that ARod is a better fielder.

ARod: 283 SB, 67 CS, 81%
Jeter: 275 SB, 75 CS, 79%

So ARod has more stolen bases and been caught less, for a slightly better percentage, but I am willing to call this even. In any case, we can assume they are both good-but-not-great on the basepaths but you certainly cannot call either one definitely better than the other.

Baseball instincts? I don’t feel like debating that, so we’ll give Jeter the edge here. He made that one amazing flip play and ARod is a tard that tried to slap the ball out of somebody’s glove.

So ARod is better defensively than Jeter, equal on the basepaths and Jeter has better “instincts.” So what else do they both do?

Oh yeah, hitting:

Career slugging percentage:
Rodriguez: .578
Jeter: .458

On average, Rodriguez has been worth close to 25 more runs than Jeter. That’s more than 2 wins per year.

So I will take ARod, and my teams will win more games. Unless of course, you can provide evidence that the reason Mariano Rivera has been so damn good is because before every pitch he looked into the beautiful face of one Derek Sanderson Jeter and that give extra life to his cutter.

30

I don’t really care that he took steroids, but the the fact that he lied about it back in 2007 and now says he’s sorry is pretty pathetic. He feels bad about it because he got caught. If he actually was concerned that he took something he shouldn’t have, then he could have easily said something back when the whole roids scandal was going on.

31

[quote]ryanjm wrote:
I don’t really care that he took steroids, but the the fact that he lied about it back in 2007 and now says he’s sorry is pretty pathetic. He feels bad about it because he got caught. If he actually was concerned that he took something he shouldn’t have, then he could have easily said something back when the whole roids scandal was going on.[/quote]

It seems like you’re completely ignoring the legality of the issue, if he just came out and said shit like that he’s completely outing everyone involved in the process of supplying him, or facing time for impeding police investigation.

32

Not a surprise. He just happened to get exposed. He’s NOT the only one.

33

I’ve never heard anyone describe ARod as “big” or “huge” until this story broke. Suddenly it comes out that he juiced, and people notice how “big” he has gotten over the years.

Whatever.

34

[quote]malonetd wrote:
I’ve never heard anyone describe ARod as “big” or “huge” until this story broke. Suddenly it comes out that he juiced, and people notice how “big” he has gotten over the years.

Whatever.[/quote]

Well he did get noticebly larger when he made the switch from short to third. Actually it was only about ten pounds ehh whatever. But that was after the time he said he was using. So who knows. The media is retarded. Theyre probably going to blame the glove slapping incident on roid rage lol.

35

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
Oh boy, this is gonna be fun…

ProwlCat wrote:
Jeter gives an at-bat every time he digs in. A-Rod can rake, no question. But I see him give away ABs, much more often than Jeter.

Career on-base percentages:
ARod: .389
Jeter: .387

Judging by the strict baseball definition of “outs” and “not out”, which, incidentally, happen to be the only ones that matter on the scoreboard (you know, the thing that indicates winning and losing), they have both given away ABs at almost the same exact rate throughout their career.

Having big numbers guys on your team is great. But give me guys who do the things that help you win every day.

Like… hitting (ARod is better)
Fielding (ARod is better)
Baserunning (pretty similar, maybe a slight edge to ARod but call it even)

Is Jeter a better pitcher or something?

That’s what matters when you play a lot of games (i.e. 162). Solid defense. Good baserunning. Baseball instints. Give me that guy. Between Jeter and A-Rod…it’s Jeter.

Almost every defensive metric known to man rates ARod as being better than Jeter. Remember in 2002 and 2003 when Jeter DIDN’T win a Gold Glove. You know who did? Oh yeah… ARod. Then ARod came to NY and Jeter selfishly would not change positions even though ARod is a better shortstop. Gold Gloves are a terrible indicator of actual defensive value, but in this case, both statistics AND subjective opinion agree that ARod is a better fielder.

ARod: 283 SB, 67 CS, 81%
Jeter: 275 SB, 75 CS, 79%

So ARod has more stolen bases and been caught less, for a slightly better percentage, but I am willing to call this even. In any case, we can assume they are both good-but-not-great on the basepaths but you certainly cannot call either one definitely better than the other.

Baseball instincts? I don’t feel like debating that, so we’ll give Jeter the edge here. He made that one amazing flip play and ARod is a tard that tried to slap the ball out of somebody’s glove.

So ARod is better defensively than Jeter, equal on the basepaths and Jeter has better “instincts.” So what else do they both do?

Oh yeah, hitting:

Career slugging percentage:
Rodriguez: .578
Jeter: .458

On average, Rodriguez has been worth close to 25 more runs than Jeter. That’s more than 2 wins per year.

So I will take ARod, and my teams will win more games. Unless of course, you can provide evidence that the reason Mariano Rivera has been so damn good is because before every pitch he looked into the beautiful face of one Derek Sanderson Jeter and that give extra life to his cutter.

[/quote]

Nice stats. As they say, they’re for losers. Overall, according to stats, A-Rod is better. Anyone can see that. Only problem is that A-Rod’s teams have not won more games. He won MVP on a last place club in Texas. And he’s not won much of anything in his career, aside from a lot of individual awards. Baseball is more than all the stats you’ve puked up here. You’ve even projected how many more wins a year 25 runs are worth. That’s totally impossible but…whatever. It sounds good. How many three run homers did A-Rod hit with his team up 6 or down 8? You don’t see many tough pitches in those situations. Can you give me A-Rod’s BA on tough pitches? Sliders, and cutters on his hands? Does he foul that ball off or swing and miss? I know I’ve seen Jeter foul tough pitches off more than almost any hitter of the past 10 years. He may not get on base, but he allows his team to see pitches, pitch sequence, and that matters.

I don’t give a shit either way. I’m not a particular fan of either player. But you need to realize that, to the athletes on the field, it’s not a players lifetime stats or current stats that matter. It’s who their eyeballs and experience tell them is the better player. You won’t get that no matter how hard you try 'cause you got a hard-on for stats.

Yeah. That was fun.

36

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
Oh boy, this is gonna be fun…

ProwlCat wrote:
Jeter gives an at-bat every time he digs in. A-Rod can rake, no question. But I see him give away ABs, much more often than Jeter.

Career on-base percentages:
ARod: .389
Jeter: .387

Judging by the strict baseball definition of “outs” and “not out”, which, incidentally, happen to be the only ones that matter on the scoreboard (you know, the thing that indicates winning and losing), they have both given away ABs at almost the same exact rate throughout their career.

Having big numbers guys on your team is great. But give me guys who do the things that help you win every day.

Like… hitting (ARod is better)
Fielding (ARod is better)
Baserunning (pretty similar, maybe a slight edge to ARod but call it even)

Is Jeter a better pitcher or something?

That’s what matters when you play a lot of games (i.e. 162). Solid defense. Good baserunning. Baseball instints. Give me that guy. Between Jeter and A-Rod…it’s Jeter.

Almost every defensive metric known to man rates ARod as being better than Jeter. Remember in 2002 and 2003 when Jeter DIDN’T win a Gold Glove. You know who did? Oh yeah… ARod. Then ARod came to NY and Jeter selfishly would not change positions even though ARod is a better shortstop. Gold Gloves are a terrible indicator of actual defensive value, but in this case, both statistics AND subjective opinion agree that ARod is a better fielder.

ARod: 283 SB, 67 CS, 81%
Jeter: 275 SB, 75 CS, 79%

So ARod has more stolen bases and been caught less, for a slightly better percentage, but I am willing to call this even. In any case, we can assume they are both good-but-not-great on the basepaths but you certainly cannot call either one definitely better than the other.

Baseball instincts? I don’t feel like debating that, so we’ll give Jeter the edge here. He made that one amazing flip play and ARod is a tard that tried to slap the ball out of somebody’s glove.

So ARod is better defensively than Jeter, equal on the basepaths and Jeter has better “instincts.” So what else do they both do?

Oh yeah, hitting:

Career slugging percentage:
Rodriguez: .578
Jeter: .458

On average, Rodriguez has been worth close to 25 more runs than Jeter. That’s more than 2 wins per year.

So I will take ARod, and my teams will win more games. Unless of course, you can provide evidence that the reason Mariano Rivera has been so damn good is because before every pitch he looked into the beautiful face of one Derek Sanderson Jeter and that give extra life to his cutter.

[/quote]

You do understand that giving away an at-bat has NOTHING to do with if you got a hit or not, right? Tell me you understand that? You do know that seeing pitches, fouling balls back and putting the ball in play consitutes a ‘good’ AB. Striking out on three fastballs is NOT a good AB. Both count the same as far as on-base percentage, though. So, again, your stat means nothing.

I was wrong. This is not fun. It’s not fun arguing baseball with a stat guy who doesn’t understand it. Let me know if you need anything else explained to you.

37

it was quite obvious A-rod was taking some sort of gear a few years ago. him Gagne, kenvin brown, barry bonds, they all got waaaay too big waaaay to fast considering they play baseball intensely 6 months of the year

38

[quote]Kalle wrote:
I like how no one gives a shit about mediocre players who test positive but get all upset about great players when they test positive.

Fucking ridiculous. I am DONE with baseball. Not allowing great players like Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod, McGuire in the hall of fame. (they won’t) They are a bunch of hypocrites [/quote]

I totally agree. The media loves it because they get to have a field day with it. Nobody gives a shit if some guy bouncing back and forth from AAA to the majors takes steriods or not.

39

[quote]JaX Un wrote:
it was quite obvious A-rod was taking some sort of gear a few years ago. him Gagne, kenvin brown, barry bonds, they all got waaaay too big waaaay to fast considering they play baseball intensely 6 months of the year[/quote]

I’d really like to see some photos of where ARod got “waaaay too big waaaay to fast.”

40

[quote]malonetd wrote:
JaX Un wrote:
it was quite obvious A-rod was taking some sort of gear a few years ago. him Gagne, kenvin brown, barry bonds, they all got waaaay too big waaaay to fast considering they play baseball intensely 6 months of the year

I’d really like to see some photos of where ARod got “waaaay too big waaaay to fast.”[/quote]

i misplaced all of his topless pictures i have of him on my computer

but i saw him on david letterman a few years ago shirtless, the guy wasn’t cut, but he was far more jacked then I had ever seen him before, including current times. I was just saying he had something in common with brown, gagne and bonds, they all got huge out of nowhere and i highly doubt someone could pack on that much muscle while playing baseball for 6 months out of the year, but what the hell do i know?