[quote]dond1esel wrote:
Beauzo wrote:
It doesn’t take any real musical talent to make.
Well then, I await your album with bated breath.[/quote]
One can critique from a position of listener without being able or desirous of a muscic career.
[quote]SheekLouche wrote:
Beauzo wrote:
I have to agree with the rev. Rap music is GARBAGE!
Your post is garbage.[/quote]
Tell us why you think that that posters opinion is “garbage?”
[quote]SheekLouche wrote:
ZEB wrote:
That is one of the problems according to Sharpton. He states that rap brings on Black on Black violence.
If he is right then shouldn’t more black leaders like Sharpton and Cosby be speaking out against rap music?
Do you feel that rap brings about black on black violence?
[/quote]
I’m unaware of any statistics that make this claim. What do you think?
[quote]ZEB wrote:
dond1esel wrote:
Beauzo wrote:
It doesn’t take any real musical talent to make.
Well then, I await your album with bated breath.
One can critique from a position of listener without being able or desirous of a muscic career.[/quote]
Critique, yes. Make judgments of possessed and necessary talent, hell no.
And how could one be “able of a music career” other than to have musical talent? Unless working a genre which required none, as alleged. Desire is irrelevant. The only way to prove the claim that was made is to produce a competently made rap album by an individual devoid of musical talent. So I asked for one.
DonDiesel,
“Make judgments of possessed and necessary talent, hell no.”
Why not?
[quote]dond1esel wrote:
ZEB wrote:
dond1esel wrote:
Beauzo wrote:
It doesn’t take any real musical talent to make.
Well then, I await your album with bated breath.
One can critique from a position of listener without being able or desirous of a muscic career.
Critique, yes. Make judgments of possessed and necessary talent, hell no. [/quote]
A “critique” evaluates and or analyzes. You are obviously a rap fan (see how astute I am) and are offended. Perhaps you would like to tell that poster the good things about rap music.
[quote]dond1esel wrote:
Critique, yes. Make judgments of possessed and necessary talent, hell no. [/quote]
Why not?
As an example, I’m not a country music artist, but I can tell you without a doubt that ‘Big and Rich’ are two talentless assclowns.
Posturing on top of nonsensical lyrics. Ironically, that’s a good way of describing most rap artists. 
I don’t have to be in the industry to tell what is crap and what is good.
Dustin
[quote]ZEB wrote:
dond1esel wrote:
ZEB wrote:
dond1esel wrote:
Beauzo wrote:
It doesn’t take any real musical talent to make.
Well then, I await your album with bated breath.
One can critique from a position of listener without being able or desirous of a muscic career.
Critique, yes. Make judgments of possessed and necessary talent, hell no.
A “critique” evaluates and or analyzes. You are obviously a rap fan (see how astute I am) and are offended. Perhaps you would like to tell that poster the good things about rap music.
[/quote]
No, I’m a musician (jazz, and I have done classical) and I’m offended. The laity need to stay away from identifying musical talent as they have none. I’ll allow that I jumped out on this point more because I like rap.
I’ll also admit that ZEB has caught me in careless usage. My post should have read, “assign preference, yes, assay talent, hell no”. And if talent assay is part of critiquing in your eyes, then please stop critiquing.
In sum, if any legitimate professional musician does not find favor in your eyes, to call them “talentless” is a careless misnomer the underpinnings of which you know nothing about unless you have walked some part of the same path. And rap artists are legitmate, before someone goes there.
I don’t want to discuss the musical underpinnings of rap and the talent required for their mastery because it would require a large background lesson and extend forward into a polemic on modern Western musical pedagogy. (I’m not making it sound any more pretentious than it has to be.) No one wants that.
They are musicians, and talented ones.
Dondiesel,
“They are musicians, and talented ones.”
I think there have been and can be, I just think the current representation aren’t.
It doesn’t take a high degree of musical talent to make it in rap, or pop music in general - it takes a certain look, a reputation, and maybe one good hit tune to get you on the map.
In the case of rap, that one good tune could be simply recycling of a track that people love already - pick any sample used lately.
Perfect example - I was out with some friends the other night. The place had a DJ. He put on a rap that sampled Nine Inch Nails’ “Closer”. The girls went nuts - why? Becuase they love the music of “Closer”.
Pedestrian lyrics - and I am being kind - coupled with a proven song that people already like, along with a nice set of abs, can get you on the charts.
Commercial success in music is not determined solely on talent. It’s about image and packaging.
As for the current rap artists, no one will remember any of them in 15 years.
I can’t believe people believe it takes no talent to be successful.
I also can’t believe how many people are confusing their own tastes for an ability to judge something.
Just because you think it sucks and you hate it has nothing to do with whether or not it is good and enjoyed by those who appreciate the genre.
I don’t like rap. I’ve actually made some techo/electronica that some people appeared to like – it’s possible they were being polite. I can’t play an instrument but I do have creativity and an ear for what I like.
Oh well, what the hell am I saying? Stop being dicks because you don’t like the genre. Old people hated rock at one point. Anything new is hated by some folks.
The value of music (art) is determined by those that like it… not those that don’t appreciate it.
Vroom,
“Oh well, what the hell am I saying? Stop being dicks because you don’t like the genre. Old people hated rock at one point. Anything new is hated by some folks.”
Hogwash. Most people are objecting to the low quality of art in rap these days not as a matter of taste, but as a matter of judging skill and talent.
Your overwarmed ‘art is too subjective to judge’ relativism does’t get much traction when you have an art form that is becoming increasingly unoriginal and unintelligent.
“The value of music (art) is determined by those that like it… not those that don’t appreciate it.”
Actually, no, if that were true, there would be no such job as ‘art critic’. Moreover, there would be no such thing as ‘bad’ art, because the only people who are doing the valuations would be the fans.
‘Art’ that promotes misogyny and violence isn’t just as ‘good’ as other art that challenges the mind or requires incredible skill - and no amount of relativist claptrap will change that.
A few points.
Rap lyrics do talk a lot about sex, violence and drug use. However, we should not take all the words in rap music at their apparent face value. Most rap does not take itself seriously, and is not written as a reflection of reality. Eminem once said, and I will paraphrase ‘I talk about shooting someone in song, and I get criticised. Arnie can kill 20 people in one scene. Why is it different? Why can’t I make a movie on wax?’ The point he is making is that it is a work of art. He is playing a role.
Not all rap is this way. Some rap artists do try to make with a message. Rap has been a legitimate way for black people to voice their concerns, hopes and fears. Those who have been oppressed will sometimes come up with things the majority find shocking, or offensive. This does not mean the medium has no artistic, or other value. As a primarily black genre, I wonder if some white people’s criticisms are tainted with an underlying racism?
Possibly rap does have a negative effect on some people, particularly some young black men who are caught up in the gansta mentality. This is unfortunate. However, I hope no one is seriously talking about censoring rap music. Free speech is one of America’s great strengths. You can’t have free speech with qualifications.
As a “mature” rap fan I must say that everyone is right in this thread. While rap may seem to consist of talentless hacks to the non fans, I blame this more on the record industry and 13 year old girls than on rap. I mean it’s not like mainstream rock, country or any other genre of music is breaking any ground. If anything rock is stealing from rap now (lincoln park, korn, limp biskit).
Now just becuase what they play on the radio or on MTV sucks does not mean that the whole genre of music sucks. Rap is filled with great and talented artists, but you probably will never hear of them or hear their music unless you go out of your way to do so. Nas, talib Kwelli, Common, and wu tang clan are some great examples.
Another thing, just looking at the form of rap, seperating it from the artists. Rap tends to lend itself best to self expression (in my opinion) because of its simplistic nature, not inspite of it. Have you ever looked at the lyrics to a rap song? Rap lyrics will be 5-10 times as long as a rock or country song.
I also make a challange to those who “hate” rap. I bet that I can make of mix of 10 rap songs that will change your perception of rap (not make you like it but at least make you think that some artists are not completly devoid of talent).
P.S. to the person who said that rappers can hold a melody, that’s because you rap to the beat.
[quote]deanosumo wrote:
A few points.
Rap lyrics do talk a lot about sex, violence and drug use. However, we should not take all the words in rap music at their apparent face value. Most rap does not take itself seriously, and is not written as a reflection of reality. Eminem once said, and I will paraphrase ‘I talk about shooting someone in song, and I get criticised. Arnie can kill 20 people in one scene. Why is it different? Why can’t I make a movie on wax?’ The point he is making is that it is a work of art. He is playing a role.
Not all rap is this way. Some rap artists do try to make with a message. Rap has been a legitimate way for black people to voice their concerns, hopes and fears. Those who have been oppressed will sometimes come up with things the majority find shocking, or offensive. This does not mean the medium has no artistic, or other value. As a primarily black genre, I wonder if some white people’s criticisms are tainted with an underlying racism?
Possibly rap does have a negative effect on some people, particularly some young black men who are caught up in the gansta mentality. This is unfortunate. However, I hope no one is seriously talking about censoring rap music. Free speech is one of America’s great strengths. You can’t have free speech with qualifications.[/quote]
Your comparison of rap with movies struck me as odd. We do hear of rap singers (and their managers, those in their entourage) actually committing acts of violence against other rap artists. That seems to transcend from art into reality.
To my recollection I have never heard of Arnold going after Stallone. In fact, I have never heard of any action movie star killing a rival. That would seem to put the action movie that you use as a comparison, solidly into the “art” camp.
Makes me wonder if the rap that some (like you) think of as fiction, is in actuality telling more realistic lurid details of the rappers life. Thus spreading the word of violence to todays young and impressionable kids, both black and white.
At least that seems to be the message of Sharpton and Cosby.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
deanosumo wrote:
A few points.
Rap lyrics do talk a lot about sex, violence and drug use. However, we should not take all the words in rap music at their apparent face value. Most rap does not take itself seriously, and is not written as a reflection of reality. Eminem once said, and I will paraphrase ‘I talk about shooting someone in song, and I get criticised. Arnie can kill 20 people in one scene. Why is it different? Why can’t I make a movie on wax?’ The point he is making is that it is a work of art. He is playing a role.
Not all rap is this way. Some rap artists do try to make with a message. Rap has been a legitimate way for black people to voice their concerns, hopes and fears. Those who have been oppressed will sometimes come up with things the majority find shocking, or offensive. This does not mean the medium has no artistic, or other value. As a primarily black genre, I wonder if some white people’s criticisms are tainted with an underlying racism?
Possibly rap does have a negative effect on some people, particularly some young black men who are caught up in the gansta mentality. This is unfortunate. However, I hope no one is seriously talking about censoring rap music. Free speech is one of America’s great strengths. You can’t have free speech with qualifications.
Your comparison of rap with movies struck me as odd. We do hear of rap singers (and their managers, those in their entourage) actually committing acts of violence against other rap artists. That seems to transcend from art into reality.
To my recollection I have never heard of Arnold going after Stallone. In fact, I have never heard of any action movie star killing a rival. That would seem to put the action movie that you use as a comparison, solidly into the “art” camp.
Makes me wonder if the rap that some (like you) think of as fiction, is in actuality telling more realistic lurid details of the rappers life. Thus spreading the word of violence to todays young and impressionable kids, both black and white.
At least that seems to be the message of Sharpton and Cosby.
[/quote]
So the reaction of the audience is what makes it art or reality? That’s strange criteria.
No doubt some people are negatively influenced by rap, but when you consider how many millions listen to it on a regular, perhaps daily basis, how big is that number? Probably about as many as people who are negatively influenced by violent movies, video games, porn, etc. A small percentage of people are susceptible to anything like that. You can’t single out rap, when kids are watching sex on the internet, racking up scores of kills on their PS2, and watching their Governor blow people away while cracking a one-liner.
So do we ban all these things? Censor them? What should we do? I think I can handle them. I think I can listen to my Snoop Dogg CDs without wanting to put a cap in anyone’s ass too.
Sometimes the great freedoms present in a country like America may throw up things some people don’t like, like rap, or porn, or violent video games. I guess that makes the freedom a two-edged sword, on occasion. That’s where we all exercise our individual judgements on what we expose ourselves, or our families, to.
Zeb while I agree with you that rap artists tend to show more violence than other music forms, I am unaware of any case of a rapper being convicted of murder. If you are talking about the Notorious BIG and Tupac cases, it has been heavily speculated that they were both gunned down by the same crooked LA police officer. I can’t remember his name, but he is in jail for something else at this time.
[quote]deanosumo wrote:
ZEB wrote:
deanosumo wrote:
A few points.
Rap lyrics do talk a lot about sex, violence and drug use. However, we should not take all the words in rap music at their apparent face value. Most rap does not take itself seriously, and is not written as a reflection of reality. Eminem once said, and I will paraphrase ‘I talk about shooting someone in song, and I get criticised. Arnie can kill 20 people in one scene. Why is it different? Why can’t I make a movie on wax?’ The point he is making is that it is a work of art. He is playing a role.
Not all rap is this way. Some rap artists do try to make with a message. Rap has been a legitimate way for black people to voice their concerns, hopes and fears. Those who have been oppressed will sometimes come up with things the majority find shocking, or offensive. This does not mean the medium has no artistic, or other value. As a primarily black genre, I wonder if some white people’s criticisms are tainted with an underlying racism?
Possibly rap does have a negative effect on some people, particularly some young black men who are caught up in the gansta mentality. This is unfortunate. However, I hope no one is seriously talking about censoring rap music. Free speech is one of America’s great strengths. You can’t have free speech with qualifications.
Your comparison of rap with movies struck me as odd. We do hear of rap singers (and their managers, those in their entourage) actually committing acts of violence against other rap artists. That seems to transcend from art into reality.
To my recollection I have never heard of Arnold going after Stallone. In fact, I have never heard of any action movie star killing a rival. That would seem to put the action movie that you use as a comparison, solidly into the “art” camp.
Makes me wonder if the rap that some (like you) think of as fiction, is in actuality telling more realistic lurid details of the rappers life. Thus spreading the word of violence to todays young and impressionable kids, both black and white.
At least that seems to be the message of Sharpton and Cosby.
So the reaction of the audience is what makes it art or reality? That’s strange criteria.
No doubt some people are negatively influenced by rap, but when you consider how many millions listen to it on a regular, perhaps daily basis, how big is that number? Probably about as many as people who are negatively influenced by violent movies, video games, porn, etc. A small percentage of people are susceptible to anything like that. You can’t single out rap, when kids are watching sex on the internet, racking up scores of kills on their PS2, and watching their Governor blow people away while cracking a one-liner.
So do we ban all these things? Censor them? What should we do? I think I can handle them. I think I can listen to my Snoop Dogg CDs without wanting to put a cap in anyone’s ass too.
Sometimes the great freedoms present in a country like America may throw up things some people don’t like, like rap, or porn, or violent video games. I guess that makes the freedom a two-edged sword, on occasion. That’s where we all exercise our individual judgements on what we expose ourselves, or our families, to.
[/quote]
deanosumo:
No, you missed my point. If the actual rappers (or those who surround them) are acting out violent acts, or drug deals, then they are the ones who have made their art a reality!
Sharpton and Cosby are claiming (I think) that this is one thing that drives youths to violence and drugs.
Who knows?
[quote]KevinKovach wrote:
Zeb while I agree with you that rap artists tend to show more violence than other music forms, I am unaware of any case of a rapper being convicted of murder. If you are talking about the Notorious BIG and Tupac cases, it has been heavily speculated that they were both gunned down by the same crooked LA police officer. I can’t remember his name, but he is in jail for something else at this time.[/quote]
Hey, you might be right. It seems that an inordinate amount of rappers are in the news in either drug, or violence related events.
Am I wrong about that?
I could do some research, but it just doesn’t interest me enough.
Okay, and someone wants to suggest to me that music in general does not have its roots in sex and drugs? Look at rock.
The value of art has always been based on those that appreciate and covet the art.
Sure, there are professional collectors, but things are generally bought because people “want” to spend their money. We don’t generally spend our money on things we dislike unless we are forced to.
I think I see republicans arguing against capitalism and free markets. This is an amazing day.