T Nation

Age and AAS


#1

I really appreciate the tremendous time and effort the vets around here put into giving advice and explaining the science and art of AAS usage. I've been lurking for quite some time now and feel indebted to you all.

I'm 21 and am very seriously considering using AAS. I know I don't need the drugs; I know that I could continue making gains without them. Nevertheless, I'm very much interested in hopping on the fast-track.

I'm trying to get a realistic appraisal of any additional risks I'd assume by starting now instead of waiting a few more years. I'm definitely done growing, so growth plate closure is irrelevant. Much like Kayveeay, I have little concern over compromising my 'ultimate potential' as I don't aspire to be a competitive bodybuilder or powerlifter; I don't need to save my 'ace card' so to speak. I'm also mature and disciplined enough to both be safe and train/eat properly to maximize gains. Reading through Kayveeay's log and the Steroid Myths and Teenagers thread, I can't help but think that I'm not really assuming extra risk by starting now.

Truly reliable information on this topic is hard to come by - am I missing something important?


#2

I suppose my stats and proposed cycle are relevant to my question... so here goes:

Age: 21
Height: 6'1"
Weight: 190
Lifts: Squat - 245 x 5, Deadlift - 315 x 5, Bench - 200 x 10, Chins - BW+60 x 6
(will probably see notable improvement prior to start of cycle)
Goals: Strength and Mass

Training History:
I've been working to regain strength I had about a year and a half ago before I spent a semester abroad and later started focusing exclusively on running and calisthenics due to military aspirations. I originally gained substantial strength and mass using Starting Strength and Bill Star's 5x5. However in hindsight, following traditional bulking advice led me to put on more fat than necessary, and I've since gravitated toward intermittent fasting. I'd probably drop this on cycle since I imagine it would be rather difficult to consume 4,000-5,000 calories in an eight hour window.

Cycle Proposal:

It's a pretty standard first cycle I've plagiarized from your collective wisdom, and includes the Dbol bridge to PCT I've seen Bonez recommend many times.

10 Week Cycle:
1 - 10: Test E - 250 mg E3.5D [First injection frontloaded at 750 mg].
1 - 4, 11 - 12: DBol - 25 mg ED [taken 2 hours pre-workout]
1 - 12: Adex - .25 mg ED [adjusted to sides]
3 - 10: 250 iu hCG E3.5D

PCT:
13 - 14: 40 mg Nolva ED
15 - 16: 20 mg Nolva ED

Liver Support:
2400mg NAC/600 mg ALA ED [throughout cycle]


#3

Cycle looks good, you are young and your lifts could be better, but your not that young IMO, and your lifts aren't too bad.

I like the dbol closer to my workout personally. About 30-60 minutes before.

For the bridge though I believe you should split the dose through the day.


#4

I would honestly say regardless that you should wait another few years, your level isnt there yet. Your lifts are extremely sub par for someone in that weight class. With proper diet and the right program your numbers will move sufficiently into a range that makes them more acceptable for AAS use. Its your choice of course but I dont believe you are ready.


#5

Thanks for the feedback; you're right, my lifts do suck. And I'm willing to accept that I may not be ready.

What would be the downside to starting AAS before my lifts move into a higher range?

Frequently it seems that - barring instances of uneducated and impulsive users - the chorus of not ready/too young/too weak really equates to a sense that the potential user hasn't paid their dues and doesn't yet deserve AAS - irrespective of their safety.


#6

Its more like why take the health risk if you still have so much natural potential left, and could easily make gains naturally if you train and eat well...

You even said "I have little concern over compromising my 'ultimate potential' as I don't aspire to be a competitive bodybuilder or powerlifter"

Well, in my opinion, if you don't ever plan to compete at all, and you still have considerable potential left, I see little point in it. Why spend your money to get a little bigger and stronger than you could with just proper diet/training, when you could get a perfectly respectably physique naturally?


#7

A very reasonable question.

I want to hop on gear to progress faster and be able to train with greater intensity; I love pushing myself to the limit. I wish I could induce intracranial hemorrhages every day in the gym... and then go for a long run to calm down - without jeopardizing gains. Thus, I'm sure that I'll get on at some point. So, why not now? I also imagine that some elements of cycling will be more fun while I'm still in school :wink:.

Perhaps by taking AAS I'd just be circumventing a valuable character building process, but I tend to be a little skeptical of such notions. I think that many ostensibly character building experiences are labelled as such so that people can rationalize and take pride in their past suffering. From my admittedly immature vantage point, character appears to be built through a) setting difficult goals for oneself and then following through with them, and b) putting oneself in new and uncomfortable situations. I'm not sure that use of AAS would detract from this process.

Furthermore, I've spent (and will spend) FAR more money on food, protein, vitamins, fish oil, creatine, etc. than I would on gear. Other than the food, none of these things is strictly necessary. If I - like many others - am willing to spend as much time, effort, and money as I do to progress as fast as possible naturally, why not just take the extra step and get stuff that REALLY works?

Seriously, I've dialed in some quality sources, and it looks like I can get everything I need for $200 (and have plenty of Dbol + ancillaries left over). If we're talking finances, that's a FAR more efficient use of my money than buying supplements.

I imagine it may sound like I've completely made up my mind. This is not the case. While I'm obviously very motivated to go through with it, I'm willing to reconsider.


#8

Actually, I should probably amend that. I have no intentions of ever trying to reach the mid/top levels of these sports. Most of my energy will probably be focused on a career and a few other pursuits (such as... [flame suit on] dancing). Some competition as a hobby on the side could be fun... I don't know much about it though. Surely I wouldn't need to reach my 'ultimate potential' to do well and have fun at this level.


#9

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.


#10

In your mind, what should be considered when deciding to use/not to use gear?


#11

Amendments to proposed cycle with some attached questions:

9 Weeks of Test E - given the frontload, 9 weeks will use up two vials, and perhaps cutting it a week short would make recovery a wee bit easier.

50 mg of Dbol instead of 25 - because I'd have them, it'd provide extra oomph to the cycle, and it means I could split up the dosing better during the bridge (my source sells them as 25 mg tabs). Would I see more unpleasant side effects and/or would it require adjusting the dosage of Adex? Good or bad idea?

Running the Dbol the first and last 3 weeks instead of first 4/last 2 - it seems that with a frontload, the Test should be really kicking in by week 4 any way, and this would give me a week of Dbol while the Test is peaking. Good or bad idea?

I've been reading about the cortisol rebound and am researching what I could do to address it. Would it be worth trying the Bill Roberts approved version of the Stasis/Taper for a first cycle? What about running a peptide through PCT? Meditating and/or reducing environmental stress as much as possible during PCT?

Also, I should mention that I'm on Wellbutrin. It was prescribed in high school for depression. I've felt fine since then, but given the long period over which I've developed tolerance to it, I've been hesitant to come off lest I chemically induce a depressive episode - which is basically what the psych said as well. It's been a long, long time since I talked to him however, and he could just be a drug pusher. Possible concerns with this?


#12

I have no real advice on your cycle except to only use when you are sure you have a good appreciation of the risk/reward ratio and are confident in moving forward (sure there will be some nervousness I imagine, but overall having a positive outlook on doing it).

My advice is for the wellbutrin. I was on it for about 6 months last year when docs were trying to figure out what was going on with me. I stopped taking it cold turkey at about the same time I was weaning off Cortef, and felt like absolute death for about a month. I was an irritable, moody, depressive bitch. I'm sure the cortef weaning played a bigger role, but couldn't discount the wellbutrin as an effect as well. Proceed with caution.


#13

Thank you for sharing. In the future I'll have to find a convenient period of time to drop the drug - during which I can afford to potentially be irritable/moody/depressive. Re-reading what I wrote, I realize my question wasn't clear: are there any unique considerations to take into account when Wellbutrin and AAS are in my system at the same time?


#14

http://www.drugs.com/drug-interactions/testosterone-enanthate-with-wellbutrin-xl-2167-3993-440-2469.html
there is no known problems between the 2,but that does not mean theres no ill effects,just they are not known.

everyone does any types of drugs for all different reasons, I personally am all for you using AAS, you seem to have the maturity level one needs before jumping on that bandwagon.
from what little I know of you that is,yes there are physical limits that one should reach before using drugs,these are mainly for them to be optimal at what they are going to do.

if you havent reached your peak without drugs then it will be disappointing when you do not reach that same peak with them.
but bottom line IMO it comes down to maturity and education.


#15

Thanks MaddyD, that drug checker is a great tool to know about.

[EDIT: Decided that I'll hold off on buying gear for a second go-round. I'll end up paying more, but it's probably better to see how the first one goes before grabbing more supplies.]

On another note: I can get a substantial discount, as well as pay for shipping only once, if I order gear for a second cycle at the same as the first (lol, maybe I'm just rationalizing the coming addiction/obsession).

How does this look for #2?

Week 1-10: Test E 250mg E3.5D [frontloaded]
Week 1-9: EQ 150mg E3.5D [frontloaded]
Week 1-3,10-12: DBol 25mg ED
Week 3-10: hCG 250iu E3.5D
Week 1-12: Adex .25mg ED

Same PCT/Liver support.

I'd rather stick to medium length (8 week) cycles, but have read that EQ needs to be run longer. Is a 10 weeker okay, or is 12 weeks really the minimum?. This is basically identical to what I'm considering for the first cycle - excepting the addition of 300mg EQ/week. Is this enough EQ to see a difference, or should the dosage be bumped up?

I was looking at trying Anavar for 6 weeks at the end of the cycle (instead of Dbol) given its reputed synergy with EQ w/r/t strength, hardening, and tendon/joint support. But after searching through threads, I've gotten the sense that it's both expensive and unnecessary for someone at my level of development. Thoughts?


#16

i would say merely from your height and weight that you dont know how to eat yet and your not even close to ready to consume the calories and foods you'll need to, to make AAS worth your while.

at 6'1" i wouldnt even consider it until you could hold a decent(not fat or flabby) looking physique at 210lbs


#17

I respectfully disagree. If I'm not ready, it's definitely not my poor eating ability or lack of stomach capacity that's holding me back.

A couple years ago I bulked up from 175 to 210 over the course of 8 months; I put on too much fat, but by no means was "fat" or "flabby". I briefly explained why my strength/weight has dropped since (semester abroad then exclusive focus on running/calisthenics for military).

And in fact, I'm currently dieting down. After spending lots of time reading Martin Berkhan's stuff, I no longer buy into the traditional whipsaw process of bulking then cutting (a la Lee Priest). It certainly works for a lot of people, but it isn't the only way.

In any case, I'm capable of putting down the calories when I need to. It has taken far more discipline and restraint for me to keep my calories under maintenance.