'Affirmative Consent' Policies

Off Topic
21

[quote]SmilingPolitely wrote:
I think the idea behind this is really good. There are a lot of guys out there who unintentionally push the boundaries, or worse, feel it is OK to escalate the sex without consent and feel that they are entitled to more because, “Hey she can always leave if she doesn’t want it”.

For the sake of expanding this conversation and, perhaps, illustrating what I believe this policy is trying to address, I am going to share a couple of stories. Please note, that I take responsibility for my actions in these situations. In some cases I was stupid, drunk and left myself vulnerable. In others I was too young to know what to do. In NO instance did I ever consider pressing charges, but that does NOT mean that I was fine with what happened. I don’t know if a guy can ever fully understand what something happening to your body against your will truly feels like at the moment. It is traumatic. It does mess with your head. Its not necessarily insurmountable, but it stays with you.

  1. I had just turned 21. None of my friends were old enough to drink so I had the brilliant idea to go to a bar by myself. I was talking to a couple of guys who continued to buy me drinks so I would “hang out”. Being inexperienced, I over did it and couldn’t drive. They offered to let me crash at their place.
    While there, I had sex with one of the guys. It was consensual and we used a condom. In the morning, the guy tried to go for round two. I told him I didn’t want to and pointed out that there were no condoms. He said that since I liked it so much the night before, that I would enjoy it even more without a condom. I protested, he won and I found out 6 weeks later I had chlamydia.
    I went home with a stranger while drunk. I agreed to sex already. Despite feeling violated, I was also ashamed of my actions and blamed myself.

  2. I was dating a guy for almost 3 years. We were starting to have some major problems and I knew I was in a situation I needed to get out of, but was not sure how to do it. After weeks of pushing off sex, I finally decided to concede so he would stop getting mad at me about it.
    He started to get extremely rough. Not hitting me, but rougher than I wanted to go. I told him what he was doing hurt. His reply was, “This is unbridled passion and you need to suck it up”. At that moment it went from sex I was mildly OK with to something very dark and scary. In the moment, the life we shared together didn’t even register in my mind. All I felt was fear.

  3. One last drunken story (yes. You would have thought I had learned my lesson). I go home with a guy I had been flirting with for months. We’re messing around and I am having a good time. While he’s going down on me, he sticks a finger up my ass and I cum.
    Fast forward a bit and he decides he wants anal. I say no. He insists that since I liked it so much when he was going down on me that I obviously like anal. After a few more protests he finally stops trying and things go back to fun. He then “accidentally” changes lanes. I scream. Try to back away but he holds my hips and tells me to relax so it doesn’t hurt as much. You want to talk about a feeling of utter powerlessness? In that situation, the damage is done. Aside from trying to claw his eyes out, I am left with few options except to wait for him to finish, get dressed and leave.

In none of these circumstances did I press charges. I understood my own culpability in what occurred. However, the way I viewed those examples and the way the guy did were vastly different. I wouldn’t label any of them a “rapist”. I honestly believe that none of them meant, or even realized, the damage they had done, but the memories stay with me.

This is where the concept of “affirmative consent” is a great idea. If nothing else, it serves as a reminder that you can’t always read signals and what a guy might find benign may be too far for the girl; particularly in a world where we are so inundated with porn, some guys’ expectations can be far from reality.

I do NOT, however, support the enforcement of this policy. It is too vague and makes it too easy for women to take advantage of it. And, FWIW, MOST women hate the ones who falsely accuse because it diminishes the severity of rape. Because so many women have cried “wolf” in the past, women who claim rape are now instantly scrutinized.

I have been extremely fortunate to have not been sexually attacked. My experiences were mild compared to what some women have gone through. But, you don’t have to be pulled into a dark alley to feel violated. These instances affected how I viewed my self-worth for quite a while, but they are nothing compared to the life shattering trauma that other women have gone through. I share them not to garner pity. They are not stories I regularly think about now. Hell, I don’t even discuss it with my bf.

I shared these examples so that maybe some of you can see why women want to have this conversation. I am sick of the phrase “Rape Culture”, but I do think we need to have open and frank discussions about sexual situations that are escalated by guys who may or may not know they have gone too far. Something that seems rather innocuous to a guy could have a lasting impact on the woman involved.

That’s all I went men to know. Women don’t all hate men. We are not all out to ruin your life. We are all also very different. So please do not assume that just because your previous 5 girlfriends loved something that we are onboard right from the start. Your intentions may be innocent and perhaps you are just trying to do your best to please the girl, but I beg you not to assume. Take the time to make sure everyone is having a good time every once in a while. This policy makes it seem like you should get a written affidavit before hand (and with the potential legal ramifications that could be a result, I understand why a lot of guys feel like that is the only way). A simple, “Does that feel good” or “Do you like that” every so often can make a world of difference in the way a woman views her time with you.[/quote]

Great post.

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[quote]SmilingPolitely wrote:

This is where the concept of “affirmative consent” is a great idea. If nothing else, it serves as a reminder that you can’t always read signals and what a guy might find benign may be too far for the girl; particularly in a world where we are so inundated with porn, some guys’ expectations can be far from reality.

I do NOT, however, support the enforcement of this policy. It is too vague and makes it too easy for women to take advantage of it. And, FWIW, MOST women hate the ones who falsely accuse because it diminishes the severity of rape. Because so many women have cried “wolf” in the past, women who claim rape are now instantly scrutinized.

[/quote]

I agree with most of your sentiments. But you obviously recognize the problem with shifting the burdens of proof in the criminal context and redefining the element of the crime. And, for what its worth, if your consent was, in fact, withdrawn in the above scenarios, those stories were by definition examples of sexual assaults, and could be proved as such under the current definitions and burdens of proof.

23

[quote]SmilingPolitely wrote:
I think the idea behind this is really good. There are a lot of guys out there who unintentionally push the boundaries, or worse, feel it is OK to escalate the sex without consent and feel that they are entitled to more because, “Hey she can always leave if she doesn’t want it”.

For the sake of expanding this conversation and, perhaps, illustrating what I believe this policy is trying to address, I am going to share a couple of stories. Please note, that I take responsibility for my actions in these situations. In some cases I was stupid, drunk and left myself vulnerable. In others I was too young to know what to do. In NO instance did I ever consider pressing charges, but that does NOT mean that I was fine with what happened. I don’t know if a guy can ever fully understand what something happening to your body against your will truly feels like at the moment. It is traumatic. It does mess with your head. Its not necessarily insurmountable, but it stays with you.
[/quote]
So you don’t think things happen to men’s body’s against their will? Most victims of murder, assault, rape, robbery, and suicide are male. Men are also much more likely to suffer various types of accidents and injuries. I’m pretty sure that’s against their will.

Honestly, I think what you mean is that men may not understand how it feels to be in a situation where you don’t have control yet feel that you are somehow responsible and should be able to control it or take action. That’s definitely a more interesting situation, but women definitely don’t have a monopoly on blaming themselves for things that aren’t their fault.

I appreciate the experiences that you shared, but you’re somewhat unclear as to why they apply to the idea of affirmative consent. You didn’t press charges and you say that is because you don’t think the incidents reached a level deserving criminal prosecution (although they all might be possible to prosecute under current law depending on the details). So even if affirmative consent made them easier to prosecute nothing would change if you didn’t want to prosecute them.

Is there a scenario where current law definitely says it’s okay and affirmative consent would outlaw it and it’s pretty clear that it should be illegal?

24

[quote]Silyak wrote:
Most victims of . . . rape . . . are male.
[/quote]
Really?

25

[quote]TheJonty wrote:

[quote]Silyak wrote:
Most victims of . . . rape . . . are male.
[/quote]
Really?[/quote]

Ya, I sorta scratched my head too. I’m not real sure how suicide is something that happens to men’s bodies’ against their will either…

26

[quote]Silyak wrote:

[quote]SmilingPolitely wrote:
I think the idea behind this is really good. There are a lot of guys out there who unintentionally push the boundaries, or worse, feel it is OK to escalate the sex without consent and feel that they are entitled to more because, “Hey she can always leave if she doesn’t want it”.

For the sake of expanding this conversation and, perhaps, illustrating what I believe this policy is trying to address, I am going to share a couple of stories. Please note, that I take responsibility for my actions in these situations. In some cases I was stupid, drunk and left myself vulnerable. In others I was too young to know what to do. In NO instance did I ever consider pressing charges, but that does NOT mean that I was fine with what happened. I don’t know if a guy can ever fully understand what something happening to your body against your will truly feels like at the moment. It is traumatic. It does mess with your head. Its not necessarily insurmountable, but it stays with you.
[/quote]
So you don’t think things happen to men’s body’s against their will? Most victims of murder, assault, rape, robbery, and suicide are male. Men are also much more likely to suffer various types of accidents and injuries. I’m pretty sure that’s against their will.

Honestly, I think what you mean is that men may not understand how it feels to be in a situation where you don’t have control yet feel that you are somehow responsible and should be able to control it or take action. That’s definitely a more interesting situation, but women definitely don’t have a monopoly on blaming themselves for things that aren’t their fault.

I appreciate the experiences that you shared, but you’re somewhat unclear as to why they apply to the idea of affirmative consent. You didn’t press charges and you say that is because you don’t think the incidents reached a level deserving criminal prosecution (although they all might be possible to prosecute under current law depending on the details). So even if affirmative consent made them easier to prosecute nothing would change if you didn’t want to prosecute them.

Is there a scenario where current law definitely says it’s okay and affirmative consent would outlaw it and it’s pretty clear that it should be illegal?
[/quote]

Sweet fucking Christ, dude. Calm down. I am not sure where I said that bad things only happen to women. Yes. Men are victims of violence. Yes. Men are victims of abuse. Hell. I’ll even give you the point that more men are raped in prison than women and why don’t we ever talk about that? Its the god damned feminazi agenda that is looking to belittle the equal suffering men go through because they would rather blame the patriarchy for their problems.

Now that that is out of the way, perhaps we can return to the conversation I attempted to start. Both the current and proposed policies are very flawed. Innocent men are prosecuted. I could have prosecuted under the letter of the law, but that wasn’t the point of those stories. I could have gone to the police. Ruined their lives. Had my life drug through the mud because I was the skanky whore who put herself in a bad place and then regretted what I did and was trying to hold the dude responsible. I could have done that and justice would not have been served.

What I was hoping to illustrate is that due to the innate differences between men and women, a guy may not realized if he has crossed a line. There are guys who assume that just because she stops fighting that she is good to go. Without open conversations about what different people view as rape, how are we ever supposed to find a way to deal with the issue?

27

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]TheJonty wrote:

[quote]Silyak wrote:
Most victims of . . . rape . . . are male.
[/quote]
Really?[/quote]

Ya, I sorta scratched my head too. I’m not real sure how suicide is something that happens to men’s bodies’ against their will either…[/quote]
The answer to your head-scratcher is prisons.

As far as suicide, do you think people commit suicide because they feel like the are in control of their lives and what is happening to their bodies? Suicide itself is an expression of control, but more broadly it’s a symptom of a loss of control.

28

[quote]SmilingPolitely wrote:

[quote]Silyak wrote:

[quote]SmilingPolitely wrote:
I think the idea behind this is really good. There are a lot of guys out there who unintentionally push the boundaries, or worse, feel it is OK to escalate the sex without consent and feel that they are entitled to more because, “Hey she can always leave if she doesn’t want it”.

For the sake of expanding this conversation and, perhaps, illustrating what I believe this policy is trying to address, I am going to share a couple of stories. Please note, that I take responsibility for my actions in these situations. In some cases I was stupid, drunk and left myself vulnerable. In others I was too young to know what to do. In NO instance did I ever consider pressing charges, but that does NOT mean that I was fine with what happened. I don’t know if a guy can ever fully understand what something happening to your body against your will truly feels like at the moment. It is traumatic. It does mess with your head. Its not necessarily insurmountable, but it stays with you.
[/quote]
So you don’t think things happen to men’s body’s against their will? Most victims of murder, assault, rape, robbery, and suicide are male. Men are also much more likely to suffer various types of accidents and injuries. I’m pretty sure that’s against their will.

Honestly, I think what you mean is that men may not understand how it feels to be in a situation where you don’t have control yet feel that you are somehow responsible and should be able to control it or take action. That’s definitely a more interesting situation, but women definitely don’t have a monopoly on blaming themselves for things that aren’t their fault.

I appreciate the experiences that you shared, but you’re somewhat unclear as to why they apply to the idea of affirmative consent. You didn’t press charges and you say that is because you don’t think the incidents reached a level deserving criminal prosecution (although they all might be possible to prosecute under current law depending on the details). So even if affirmative consent made them easier to prosecute nothing would change if you didn’t want to prosecute them.

Is there a scenario where current law definitely says it’s okay and affirmative consent would outlaw it and it’s pretty clear that it should be illegal?
[/quote]

Sweet fucking Christ, dude. Calm down. I am not sure where I said that bad things only happen to women. Yes. Men are victims of violence. Yes. Men are victims of abuse. Hell. I’ll even give you the point that more men are raped in prison than women and why don’t we ever talk about that? Its the god damned feminazi agenda that is looking to belittle the equal suffering men go through because they would rather blame the patriarchy for their problems.

Now that that is out of the way, perhaps we can return to the conversation I attempted to start. Both the current and proposed policies are very flawed. Innocent men are prosecuted. I could have prosecuted under the letter of the law, but that wasn’t the point of those stories. I could have gone to the police. Ruined their lives. Had my life drug through the mud because I was the skanky whore who put herself in a bad place and then regretted what I did and was trying to hold the dude responsible. I could have done that and justice would not have been served.

What I was hoping to illustrate is that due to the innate differences between men and women, a guy may not realized if he has crossed a line. There are guys who assume that just because she stops fighting that she is good to go. Without open conversations about what different people view as rape, how are we ever supposed to find a way to deal with the issue? [/quote]
I think I understood your point, but I object to the assertion that someone can’t understand because he’s male (or white, or …). On a fundamental level the assertion isn’t false, since it’s impossible for one person to definitively understand and be certain that he understands another. But the idea is too often used to subjectify the world, which undermines rational human interaction.

As far as the situations you referenced, in all three situations you made it clear that you weren’t good to go. Then the men in question basically said they didn’t care. And then did what they wanted. I don’t mean to belittle your experience, but I don’t feel like there is much to discuss. It might be interesting to hear how the men would tell the story, but without that it’s not as if you’re going to get a bunch of men to come on here and say that it’s okay to keep going when she says it hurts. That’s not an issue with a huge gender divide.

29

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[quote]Silyak wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]TheJonty wrote:

[quote]Silyak wrote:
Most victims of . . . rape . . . are male.
[/quote]
Really?[/quote]

Ya, I sorta scratched my head too. I’m not real sure how suicide is something that happens to men’s bodies’ against their will either…[/quote]
The answer to your head-scratcher is prisons. [/quote]

Maybe, I guess. I’m not really in the mood to dig through statistics today. Here’s a couple of quick hits from Wikipedia on the topics.

[quote]
As far as suicide, do you think people commit suicide because they feel like the are in control of their lives and what is happening to their bodies? Suicide itself is an expression of control, but more broadly it’s a symptom of a loss of control. [/quote]

That’s certainly an interesting way to look at it. I don’t think when a person takes their own life they’re doing it against their own will though.

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[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Silyak wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]TheJonty wrote:

[quote]Silyak wrote:
Most victims of . . . rape . . . are male.
[/quote]
Really?[/quote]

Ya, I sorta scratched my head too. I’m not real sure how suicide is something that happens to men’s bodies’ against their will either…[/quote]
The answer to your head-scratcher is prisons. [/quote]

Maybe, I guess. I’m not really in the mood to dig through statistics today. Here’s a couple of quick hits from Wikipedia on the topics.

[quote]
As far as suicide, do you think people commit suicide because they feel like the are in control of their lives and what is happening to their bodies? Suicide itself is an expression of control, but more broadly it’s a symptom of a loss of control. [/quote]

That’s certainly an interesting way to look at it. I don’t think when a person takes their own life they’re doing it against their own will though. [/quote]
Exactly how many rapes occur in or out of prison is a highly controversial question that suffers from a good objective way to answer it, so you’re right that my statement was overly definitive. But there are analyses that show that men are getting raped in larger numbers than women. Whatever the real numbers may be, female victims of rape get essentially all of the non-joking attention on the subject and that is certainly disproportionate. Moreover, the definition of rape is penetrative in most jurisdictions.

As far as suicide, I agree. But I still think suicide is relevant to a discussion about loss of control.

31

[quote]Silyak wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Silyak wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]TheJonty wrote:

[quote]Silyak wrote:
Most victims of . . . rape . . . are male.
[/quote]
Really?[/quote]

Ya, I sorta scratched my head too. I’m not real sure how suicide is something that happens to men’s bodies’ against their will either…[/quote]
The answer to your head-scratcher is prisons. [/quote]

Maybe, I guess. I’m not really in the mood to dig through statistics today. Here’s a couple of quick hits from Wikipedia on the topics.

[quote]
As far as suicide, do you think people commit suicide because they feel like the are in control of their lives and what is happening to their bodies? Suicide itself is an expression of control, but more broadly it’s a symptom of a loss of control. [/quote]

That’s certainly an interesting way to look at it. I don’t think when a person takes their own life they’re doing it against their own will though. [/quote]
Exactly how many rapes occur in or out of prison is a highly controversial question that suffers from a good objective way to answer it, so you’re right that my statement was overly definitive. But there are analyses that show that men are getting raped in larger numbers than women. Whatever the real numbers may be, female victims of rape get essentially all of the non-joking attention on the subject and that is certainly disproportionate. Moreover, the definition of rape is penetrative in most jurisdictions. [/quote]

I think, purely a guess on my part, that what you’re saying could be true percentage wise based on populations. From a sheer numbers standpoint I’d need some convincing.

[quote]
As far as suicide, I agree. But I still think suicide is relevant to a discussion about loss of control. [/quote]

Understood. I thought it was confusing because you lumped suicide in with other, for lack of a better term, injuries that occurred against the mans will.

32

[quote]Silyak wrote:

As far as the situations you referenced, in all three situations you made it clear that you weren’t good to go. Then the men in question basically said they didn’t care. And then did what they wanted. I don’t mean to belittle your experience, but I don’t feel like there is much to discuss. It might be interesting to hear how the men would tell the story, but without that it’s not as if you’re going to get a bunch of men to come on here and say that it’s okay to keep going when she says it hurts. That’s not an issue with a huge gender divide. [/quote]

I didn’t think men would say it was OK. In fact, I think the guys involved would say that it is not OK if the story was presented to them at a later time. Their memory of events are vastly different than mine because they were not in my head. Would anyone, though, truly define those experiences as rape?

I don’t know if guys truly understand how quickly something can go from feeling really good to an almost panicked situation. Its like a switch and suddenly you are in a situation where you feel you have no power.

Hell. Its confusing for me to understand, much less describe. If it was truly something I didn’t want, why wasn’t I screaming no? Why wasn’t I fighting? Why did I just let him take all of the power? I don’t have a good answer and that confuses the hell out of me. I would have to imagine it would confuse the hell out of the guy too.

I’m not looking for an answer as I don’t want to incriminate anyone or have their honesty taken the wrong way. However, if a girl doesn’t scream no every step of the way or fight you, is that implied consent? If I am in a bed with someone and I turn down his advances for sex 15 times and on number 16 I just can’t do it and give in, not say yes, just not say no and show no signs of interest. Is that implied consent?

It is a tricky maze to navigate. It is because of that, that I think the affirmative consent idea is a good one. I am not saying change the laws. I am not saying these guys should be prosecuted. These are somewhat “normal” circumstances that you are going to run into as a sexually active individual. My problem was not being emotionally mature enough to deal with the situation I put myself in.

I honestly believe that these are things that need to be discussed. Do all men realize how quickly the female mind can change in those situations? Is it fair to assume that they should? Should he be arrested because he doesn’t fully understand it? I say no. Unfortunately, the laws are set up as such that they can be arrested for something they didn’t even know they did, but that the “victim” believes he did.

As someone in the article stated, “intellectually it makes sense”. The reality of implementation is something completely different. For the record, I don’t consider myself to be a rape victim. I got myself in bad situations and felt some bad things but there was no permanent damage. I know it is not PC to say, but women who are the victim of “Real” raped have an uphill battle because of piddly cases like mine that stretch the letter of the law so far that no one wants to believe any of it.

I can’t say that a guy will never encounter some cunt who is looking for attention and decides to cry rape. God knows I have seen it many times; though luckily never to the point of charges being filed. What I can do, is give guys a glimpse of the other side so that maybe if they are in a similar situation they can understand a little better how their actions can be misconstrued.

Will it be enough to save even one dude from a potential rape accusation? Probably not, but it is all I can do. As the conversation about date rape exists right now, it is black and white. Us vs Them. That does nothing. If two people are in a situation where the word rape is being considered, they both did something to put themselves there; most likely not knowing the person well enough. In that respect, neither party is innocent. But seeing as casual sex isn’t going away any time soon, we need a better solution.

No. I don’t have a solution. Fuck. I hardly have a coherent thought here. This really isn’t something I spend a lot of time thinking about. The topic just hit me sideways today.

33

[quote]SmilingPolitely wrote:
Their memory of events are vastly different than mine because they were not in my head. Would anyone, though, truly define those experiences as rape?

[/quote]

Unless there was a before hand agreement between partners that one was going to be dominant and the other submissive, with a “safeword” rather than “no” or “stop”, then yes, your number 3 is rape. At least in my mind, without question.

Looking back on my life and what I’ve done with women, each and every one of those situations you described I would never have been party too. The word “no” is a major turn off (unless, like I said it is predetermined that no doesn’t mean stop.)

If things went down the way you describe them, they are dirt bags, 100%.

34

That’s not to say you didn’t make a stupid ass choice in situation 1. No offense.

35

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
That’s not to say you didn’t make a stupid ass choice in situation 1. No offense. [/quote]

I would argue if I could :slight_smile:

36

[quote]SmilingPolitely wrote:

[quote]Silyak wrote:

[quote]SmilingPolitely wrote:
I think the idea behind this is really good. There are a lot of guys out there who unintentionally push the boundaries, or worse, feel it is OK to escalate the sex without consent and feel that they are entitled to more because, “Hey she can always leave if she doesn’t want it”.

For the sake of expanding this conversation and, perhaps, illustrating what I believe this policy is trying to address, I am going to share a couple of stories. Please note, that I take responsibility for my actions in these situations. In some cases I was stupid, drunk and left myself vulnerable. In others I was too young to know what to do. In NO instance did I ever consider pressing charges, but that does NOT mean that I was fine with what happened. I don’t know if a guy can ever fully understand what something happening to your body against your will truly feels like at the moment. It is traumatic. It does mess with your head. Its not necessarily insurmountable, but it stays with you.
[/quote]
So you don’t think things happen to men’s body’s against their will? Most victims of murder, assault, rape, robbery, and suicide are male. Men are also much more likely to suffer various types of accidents and injuries. I’m pretty sure that’s against their will.

Honestly, I think what you mean is that men may not understand how it feels to be in a situation where you don’t have control yet feel that you are somehow responsible and should be able to control it or take action. That’s definitely a more interesting situation, but women definitely don’t have a monopoly on blaming themselves for things that aren’t their fault.

I appreciate the experiences that you shared, but you’re somewhat unclear as to why they apply to the idea of affirmative consent. You didn’t press charges and you say that is because you don’t think the incidents reached a level deserving criminal prosecution (although they all might be possible to prosecute under current law depending on the details). So even if affirmative consent made them easier to prosecute nothing would change if you didn’t want to prosecute them.

Is there a scenario where current law definitely says it’s okay and affirmative consent would outlaw it and it’s pretty clear that it should be illegal?
[/quote]

Sweet fucking Christ, dude. Calm down. I am not sure where I said that bad things only happen to women. Yes. Men are victims of violence. Yes. Men are victims of abuse. Hell. I’ll even give you the point that more men are raped in prison than women and why don’t we ever talk about that? Its the god damned feminazi agenda that is looking to belittle the equal suffering men go through because they would rather blame the patriarchy for their problems.

Now that that is out of the way, perhaps we can return to the conversation I attempted to start. Both the current and proposed policies are very flawed. Innocent men are prosecuted. I could have prosecuted under the letter of the law, but that wasn’t the point of those stories. I could have gone to the police. Ruined their lives. Had my life drug through the mud because I was the skanky whore who put herself in a bad place and then regretted what I did and was trying to hold the dude responsible. I could have done that and justice would not have been served.

What I was hoping to illustrate is that due to the innate differences between men and women, a guy may not realized if he has crossed a line. There are guys who assume that just because she stops fighting that she is good to go. Without open conversations about what different people view as rape, how are we ever supposed to find a way to deal with the issue? [/quote]

I dont even know how to feel about that.

On the one hand I dont appreciate it if someone jumps SmilingPolitely ass first, on the other hand, way to go dude.

They will not respond to reason, or appeals to compassion, but anger, anger is something they understand.

I like it when the female imperative no longer goes unchallenged, when Emma fucking Watson has to disable comments on her Youtube HeforShe nonsense, when Sarkeesian disables comments, these days women have to create response free bubbles or else they get taken to task.

37

[quote]SmilingPolitely wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
That’s not to say you didn’t make a stupid ass choice in situation 1. No offense. [/quote]

I would argue if I could :)[/quote]

The only reason I dont’ have any reservations about saying that is because of the fact we’ve talked before, and you know it isn’t coming from a place of malice or blaming the victim.

Me telling you that is akin to telling someone in Harlem to lock their doors at night.

We were all young and stupid. The amount of cars I got in with wasted drivers… I shouldn’t be here right now typing this.

38

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]SmilingPolitely wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
That’s not to say you didn’t make a stupid ass choice in situation 1. No offense. [/quote]

I would argue if I could :)[/quote]

The only reason I dont’ have any reservations about saying that is because of the fact we’ve talked before, and you know it isn’t coming from a place of malice or blaming the victim.

Me telling you that is akin to telling someone in Harlem to lock their doors at night.

We were all young and stupid. The amount of cars I got in with wasted drivers… I shouldn’t be here right now typing this. [/quote]

We’re all good, my friend. Young and stupid is right. Besides, I’ve been on these boards long enough to know the difference between an attack and an astute observation.

I was torn about typing that. I was a stupid, young 20 something girl. I put myself in stupid situations. I can’t imagine I am the only one. If you take that sexual confusion and emotional immaturity, add to it the climate of some colleges today, where any touch is bad touch, and you have a recipe for disaster. And it harms both sides.

Its completely Polly Anna of me to think that a conversation here could make a difference. The system is broken. But I have also learned a lot over the years from these boards about the types of struggles men deal with and it has helped me to look at things from a different perspective on several topics.

I thought I, perhaps, had some insight to offer from the woman’s side as to how what one person could see as totally fine gets misinterpreted. I also realize I picked some rather harsh stories for illustration (though I am not releasing all of my personal history here. Ya’ll just gonna have to wait for the book!!). If you surround yourself with a single narrative, that is all you will ever know. Maybe I gave a couple of people something to think about. And that would be a good thing.

disclaimer: Obviously I know Beansy doesn’t need my longer explanation, but I am your typical bitch who LOVES to hear herself talk :wink:

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[quote]orion wrote:

I dont even know how to feel about that.

On the one hand I dont appreciate it if someone jumps SmilingPolitely ass first, on the other hand, way to go dude.

They will not respond to reason, or appeals to compassion, but anger, anger is something they understand.

I like it when the female imperative no longer goes unchallenged, when Emma fucking Watson has to disable comments on her Youtube HeforShe nonsense, when Sarkeesian disables comments, these days women have to create response free bubbles or else they get taken to task. [/quote]

Come on, Orion. I would have accepted comments about me being a whore. I would have accepted comments about being an idiot. Hell, I would have accepted a comment that told me to shut up. But he went after the most inane point…that I believe men aren’t also the victim sometimes.

Honestly. Do you really think that is what I was trying to say? That because I didn’t include the exact phrase, “Men cannot understand the powerlessness inherent in having a dick inside you when you don’t want it” that I was implying in any way that men don’t know what fear, pain, trauma and suffering are?

It was a weak argument thrown out in an attempt to discredit me (for reasons I cannot understand) and imply some sort of bias that did not exist in what I wrote.

40

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

If things went down the way you describe them, they are dirt bags, 100%. [/quote]

As far as rape is concerned, I think the issue is that the pendulum was far too much on one side for a while (Guys aren’t that bad; the woman must have wanted it, otherwise she would have stopped it, blah blah) and now it’s swinging really hard to the opposite side, and so you get the same resultant assumptions that just seem really off (1/3 of all college females get raped, all men are rapists at heart, women cannot initiate rape, blah blah).

On-topic- Yea, the policy has the people’s best interest at heart, but I’m slowly coming to the opinion that having people’s best interest at heart, or something that is good for society/people/related, shouldn’t be the key factor in policy-making.