T Nation

Affirmative Action Ruling

SCOTUS rules on Affirmative Action initiative in Michigan

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304049904579517521606356770?mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424052702304049904579517521606356770.html

Thoughts?

Saw this yesterday. I’m perfectly fine with it.

*Note I am white, therefore, obviously a racist.

I’m more pissed off about the anonymous tip traffic stop ruling.

The right call was made. (A broken clock is right twice a day.)

Even before this ruling took place.I know that there was an attempt in our state to take this issue to the voters. I think you will see more of this in light of this ruling.

Senator Ed Hernandez (D-Covina) will bring up SCA5, which will remove certain prohibitions of our ban on Affirmative Action known as Prop 209.

Problem is, this is splitting the Democratic vote. You have Asians joining Whites fighting this proposal, while Blacks and Latinos are pushing it. The voting Demographic would be such that if this issue is pushed, Dems risk losing the Asian vote which could give Republicans an advantage electorally, and they already lost their super majority due to arrests and Federal indictments.

The issue was tabled (for now) , but the Latino activists are pushing to put it on the ballot next year.

It’s hard to stomach some student being denied admission because of their race, due to “benefits of diversity” which is yet to be proven or quantified.

Personally, I don’t think we should even ask students about their name, race, or sex on applications, you could simply use their Social Security Number or Tax ID number (ITIN) on applications.

“The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.”

-some asshole that thinks obamacare is a tax

But, basing decisions of employment or admittance to an institution based on merit alone and not on the color of one’s skin is… Perfectly rational.

[quote]Bismark wrote:
But, basing decisions of employment or admittance to an institution based on merit alone and not on the color of one’s skin is… Perfectly rational. [/quote]

You know, we talk a lot about getting ahead in life based on merit but that’s not really how the world works. Getting ahead is almost solely based on relationships. Even getting into college has become a matter of how many extra curricular activities you’ve participated in since everyone has a 4.9 gpa these days.

So, if you’re a poor kid from the inner city but bright as hell you could be denied entry into college or be passed on that scholarship simply because your school didn’t offer all of those other programs.

I’m not saying that we should have a quota by any means. But we should definitely rethink how we admit kids into college. And no, I don’t know what the answer to that is.

james

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:
But, basing decisions of employment or admittance to an institution based on merit alone and not on the color of one’s skin is… Perfectly rational. [/quote]

You know, we talk a lot about getting ahead in life based on merit but that’s not really how the world works. Getting ahead is almost solely based on relationships. Even getting into college has become a matter of how many extra curricular activities you’ve participated in since everyone has a 4.9 gpa these days.

So, if you’re a poor kid from the inner city but bright as hell you could be denied entry into college or be passed on that scholarship simply because your school didn’t offer all of those other programs.

I’m not saying that we should have a quota by any means. But we should definitely rethink how we admit kids into college. And no, I don’t know what the answer to that is.

james
[/quote]

Fair enough, but some institutions will admit less qualified minority students to reach a threshold where they receive more state and federal funding. Those students prevent more qualified ones from being admitted in some cases, which is ridiculous.

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:
But, basing decisions of employment or admittance to an institution based on merit alone and not on the color of one’s skin is… Perfectly rational. [/quote]

You know, we talk a lot about getting ahead in life based on merit but that’s not really how the world works. Getting ahead is almost solely based on relationships. Even getting into college has become a matter of how many extra curricular activities you’ve participated in since everyone has a 4.9 gpa these days.

[/quote]
I don’t know what you’ve been smoking but I want some of that. Everyone has a 4.9?? I know that’s hyperbole but you’ve got to be joking man. Most people I know in college aren’t even anywhere close. I mean not in the same league.

I’d be more inclined to listen to your argument if you were talking about Harvard/Yale and legacy students or donors. I’ll even be the first to say that it affects scholarships (because, well, the hint’s in the name “SCHOLARships”). But just getting into school, no not even remotely close to everybody having a 4.0+

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
I don’t know what you’ve been smoking but I want some of that. Everyone has a 4.9?? I know that’s hyperbole but you’ve got to be joking man. Most people I know in college aren’t even anywhere close. I mean not in the same league.

I’d be more inclined to listen to your argument if you were talking about Harvard/Yale and legacy students or donors. I’ll even be the first to say that it affects scholarships (because, well, the hint’s in the name “SCHOLARships”). But just getting into school, no not even remotely close to everybody having a 4.0+
[/quote]

Yeah, it was definitely hyperbole to make a point. I do know a lot of kids who have GPAs higher than 4.0 though. Granted, my sample size isn’t that great but I’ve certainly seen it. I’m not talking Harvard or Yale but decent state schools here in California.

I fully admit that there is probably sampling bias in my statements but I would be really interested in seeing the data that shows things like GPA.

james

[quote]Bismark wrote:
Fair enough, but some institutions will admit less qualified minority students to reach a threshold where they receive more state and federal funding. Those students prevent more qualified ones from being admitted in some cases, which is ridiculous.
[/quote]

And I agree that’s wrong. The first step towards everyone being equal is just that, treating everyone equally.

james

Seems to me we are looking at the worse case scenario come to be from our parents generation.

There was once a strong push for quality across the board public schools. Achieving a higher education coming from a low income area with poor schools becomes less likely, so does the gap between rich and poor.

Its a reflection of our society and things to come. With news of our middle class taking its lowest dump, it doesn’t really surprise for some reason. Here we are justifying it, and I’m taking a guess when the racial makeup of schools is really looked at in the next ten years we will see a decline in minority and low income students achieving degrees. I don’t know what there is to be happy about, pretty friggin sad.

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
I don’t know what you’ve been smoking but I want some of that. Everyone has a 4.9?? I know that’s hyperbole but you’ve got to be joking man. Most people I know in college aren’t even anywhere close. I mean not in the same league.

I’d be more inclined to listen to your argument if you were talking about Harvard/Yale and legacy students or donors. I’ll even be the first to say that it affects scholarships (because, well, the hint’s in the name “SCHOLARships”). But just getting into school, no not even remotely close to everybody having a 4.0+
[/quote]

Yeah, it was definitely hyperbole to make a point. I do know a lot of kids who have GPAs higher than 4.0 though. Granted, my sample size isn’t that great but I’ve certainly seen it. I’m not talking Harvard or Yale but decent state schools here in California.

I fully admit that there is probably sampling bias in my statements but I would be really interested in seeing the data that shows things like GPA.

james[/quote]

Well we probably come from two vastly different sample pools. I know I had a 4.2 as did most of my friends going in, but most of the people (for public/state uni) I met had vastly lower GPAs and seemed to do fine.

I would be there is a lot of state by state variation.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Well we probably come from two vastly different sample pools. I know I had a 4.2 as did most of my friends going in, but most of the people (for public/state uni) I met had vastly lower GPAs and seemed to do fine.

I would be there is a lot of state by state variation.[/quote]

That’s fair which is why I’d love to see the data.

By your own admission you had a 4.2 gpa which is something that boggles my mind. I think that is a new phenomenon as I don’t remember anyone getting higher than a 4.0 when I went to college. But it was a lot less competitive and a LOT cheaper back in the early '90s than it is now.

But I didn’t attend the schools that had all of the extra programs either so maybe it was around but I simply didn’t know about it.

james

Thank god for Chico State and a good SAT score. Or me and my 2.9 high school GPA might be driving a cab.

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
Thank god for Chico State and a good SAT score. Or me and my 2.9 high school GPA might be driving a cab. [/quote]

LOL…same here. That and veteran status made sure that I was getting into college.

The kids I know now though are all taking college prep classes and in all sorts of activities outside of school. What year did you go to Chico? I went to Sac State but knew a bunch of guys in Chico through the Officer Candidate Program.

Anyone know what the average GPA is for college entrance by state is? I could google it myself but I’m feeling lazy.

james

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

You know, we talk a lot about getting ahead in life based on merit but that’s not really how the world works. Getting ahead is almost solely based on relationships.[/quote]

this is a bit of a stretch IMO.

Relationships are important, but they don’t have to be, and certainly aren’t always the egg in the chicken and egg scenario.

Persistence and effort can be the egg, and the relationships that help one advance the chicken that hatches from them.

And then there is those socially awkward people out there that are successful too.

I get what you’re saying, just think you’re using the broad brush a bit too liberally.

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
Thank god for Chico State and a good SAT score. Or me and my 2.9 high school GPA might be driving a cab. [/quote]

LOL…same here. That and veteran status made sure that I was getting into college.

The kids I know now though are all taking college prep classes and in all sorts of activities outside of school. What year did you go to Chico? I went to Sac State but knew a bunch of guys in Chico through the Officer Candidate Program.

Anyone know what the average GPA is for college entrance by state is? I could google it myself but I’m feeling lazy.

james
[/quote]

87-92. I knew lots of kids from Sac and Davis.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
this is a bit of a stretch IMO.

Relationships are important, but they don’t have to be, and certainly aren’t always the egg in the chicken and egg scenario.

Persistence and effort can be the egg, and the relationships that help one advance the chicken that hatches from them.

And then there is those socially awkward people out there that are successful too.

I get what you’re saying, just think you’re using the broad brush a bit too liberally. [/quote]

My statement wasn’t about being social at all. It was simply about knowing people. How many people do you know where you scratch your head and wonder how they got promoted or how they got that senior role?

And yes, with any statement there’s going to be the tails on either side. Some people know a lot of people but aren’t’ successful and some people know few and are successful. But I think generally speaking it’s less about merit and more about who you know.

james