T Nation

Advice/Thoughts on Controlling E2?

Hey all, I’ve been a frequent browser of this forum and have found it to be very helpful with building my own trt protocol.

Major shout out to KSman for their very helpful posts.

34yo/185/5’10
Regular blood tests / tracking
All other relevant labs within range or accounted for, aside from e2. Ttotal around 1100 (I don’t track this anymore as it is very consistent)

Currently been on the following protocol for ~1.5yr with changes along the way to arrive here-

EOD
75cyp
20 test p
20 mast e
~250iu hcg

-Weekly -
225 test cyp
60 t prop
60 mast e
750hcg

Has been working very well for me with one hang up. Every so often my e2 wants to climb a bit out of range and I can feel it. Currently at 48.8pg/ml (ref.r 39.9). The problem is I am (I think) very sensitive to anything e2 related. The last time I had high e2 (92) I took .5mg arimidex once and it crashed my e2 below 11pg/ml within a week requiring 4-5 weeks to get back to 14pg/ml.

So, my question is this:
Should I try taking a reduced dose of adex and monitor my labs weekly or do you think otc products like dim will be effective in controlling this? ideal range being upper 20s for me.

Alternatively, I could try lowering my test to something more like
150 cyp
40 t prop

*I should note I am aware this is a higher than “normal trt”, looking to optimize my well-being and recovery with as few negatives as possible.

I would prefer not to change my dosage and risk throwing a wrench into what I have going but I’m open to thoughts from experienced and knowledgeable people.

I want to fine tune my protocol to weed out any inconsistencies. I’m curious to know if anyone has had decent results using dim for minor reductions. I use resveratrol but it doesn’t lower e2, just helps buffer.

Unless I hear a better idea I will try .125adex and monitor for a week. If this gets me in range I’ll try dim and see if it keeps me in range.

Thanks!

No offense but if you’ve been reading KSman feeds, you are reading some very old stuff.

This is not TRT its a cycle.

Stop taking so much Test is the best option long term. Mast should also not be run long term.

Unless you need a Total T at 1100 ng/dL to relieve the symptoms of low-T, I would just lower the T dosage or the HCG dosage since HCG is known to increase E2. Also note the AI can’t affect the E2 produced inside the testicals.

This is the better solution I think

I will try reducing to my aforementioned dosage, but before I do anything test dose related I want my e2 where it should be and stable. I believe making abrupt changes before balancing or fixing the current issue isn’t the most wise decision when it comes to hormones.

To take adex or not to take adex is the question at hand.

I will also point out again I am aware this is a higher dose, I wouldnt be so grandiose in calling 1100 Tt a cycle. I will reiterate, my goal is to feel good, mind and body, and have optimal recovery so every workout is on point. While I don’t disagree long-long term my dose should be lower but every body is different and until my health markers show any changes (they haven’t in 1.5yrs) I’m not concerned about the mg’s being slightly more than what is generally prescribed.

Slightly? Try about double and then mast added to it. Most guys running 200mg don’t even need that much but you could find hundreds of debates on this here. If your TT is only 1100 I can bet your FT is way out of range. Either way your running risk with your cardiovascular health and potential prostate conditions. You want to YOLO it thats your call. Back to your original question if your E2 is slightly bothersome than lower your dose over picking an AI.

No, no no and no. Unlearn anything you’ve read from him no matter how confidently he said whatever he said. In hindsight it was a bunch of bad information. We know better now.

I think you have missed my point, the mg#’s are somewhat irrelevant, they provide a consistent reference point for me. Whether or not they are actually that dose is another question but as long as they are consistent it doesn’t really matter.
How they behave in my body is what is important. Ft is in the 230 range. Tt 1100range , all health markers(psa, lipids, etc) are excellent and not deteriorating and most importantly I feel excellent aside from the slight bump in e2 every 5 months. I don’t recommend these numbers but again, irrelevant to the questions I proposed.

Anything in particular? Generally speaking his advice was quite sound.

Over use of AI’s, estrogen being bad, etc. is the main thing, esp for TRT level doses. What you’re doing isn’t really TRT in my opinion. At best it could be borderline but adding in mast kind of kills that for me.

Everyone thinks they’re the one that is sensitive to e2, though almost no one actually needs an AI

My hope after the first eventual rise in e2 was the mast would add some synergy and alleviate my need for an ai, but obviously it’s not. I am sensitive to ai’s or everyone is lying about what .25 or .5mg adex actually does. e2 is ok being higher but it’s not optimal (feel). The whole point of doing this is making the body as good as it can be without sacrificing longevity or more simply happy and healthy. I will always error to the side of performance until it interferes with longevity or well being. I would like to delete the mast, but first I will lower test down by 30%, stabilize, and check labs. I think I will pass on the ai for now and see if dim can bring it back in check within 2 weeks. If not then hit it with a very small dose

However I don’t recall KSman ever saying e2 was bad, I remember him saying it’s ok to be slightly high, talking about the sweet spots and everyone is different and absolutely do not listen to doctors giving you ai doses for trt because low e2 is just as bad. Lots of people take over 1mg per week is crazy.

His default suggestion was 1mg of AI per week per 100mg… so for you that’s what, 3mg of Arimidex a week? Imagine how bad you’d feel if you took that given what 0.25mg did to you

Jesus, ok that’s horrible advice. I never remember seeing that, and I hope anyone would know better. I remember seeing something like .125 weekly, but I think that’s still way too much unless you have other issues going on.

Anyways, I appreciate all the advice and in a month or two I will update. I didn’t want to lower dose given everything has been excellent aside from the rare e2 bump but in the back of my mind I knew that was the obvious answer. My rational was if the higher dose wasn’t hurting might as well if I’m already on it and take the benefits of higher t. But I do think there is also a good chance there isn’t a big difference between 800 and 1100 when it comes to recovery and well being. We will see.

It’s not irrelevant when you are experiencing high E2. Too much test equals more aromatization.

Just out of curiosity, why use the separate esters?

Curious what your SHBG is.

Also I think anastrozole is very strong, as you’ve found out. I take .125mg when I feel e2 getting too high (over 70pg for me) and that does the trick. I’d start with that if I were you and didn’t want to lower the AAS doses

If you want a chance at decreasing aromatization, Cialis is known to change T/E2 ratios over time.

Cialis has many other benefits than just changing T/E2 ratios, anyone with diabetes or metabolic disorders should be on it.

You listed zero symptoms of high e2, and you posted blood work that did not show high e2. (No, slightly out of an arbitrary range is not high) My man, it is where it should be.

1 Like

I keep seeing people saying about Cialis andnits many benefits.

What exactly does it do? I thought it just helped relax.blood vessels?