Advice on Havoc Cycle and PCT

Looking for advice on my cycle, i’ve done one in the past. I ended up developing a bit of gyno from it because I didn’t properly cycle off of it. I’m 24 about 170lbs. I have a very clean diet. Here’s what I’ve got

Week before I start my cycle I will run cycle support (this will continue till the end of my PCT)
and also Liv.52 (this will end as the havoc ends)

Cycle

Week 1:
Havoc 20/20/20/20/20/20/20
Week 2:
Havoc 20/20/20/20/20/20/20
Week 3:
Havoc 20/30/30/30/30/30/30
Week 4:
Havoc 30/30/30/30/30/30/30
Week 5:
Havoc 30/30/30/30/30/30/30

During my pct I will be taking xtreme lean and load up on the creatine. Nolva will be my choice of serm and S.A.N. Myotest a week after I start nolva

PCT:

Week 1
Nolva 40/40/40/40/40/40/40
Week 2
Nolva 30/30/30/30/30/30/30
and Myotest
Week 3
Nolva 30/30/30/30/30/30/30
and Myotest
Week 4
Nolva 20/20/20/20/20/20/20
and Myotest
Week 5
Nolva 20/20/20/20/20/20/20
and Myotest

Does this look like a good cycle and pct. I’ve read I should use arimidex during my cycle, is this right? Also after my PCT ends I will use tribulus and ZMA everyday (which is what I normally do but not the full doses as the bottles state)

Any adivce would be great, not looking to get flammed just educated before I do this.

no one has any input?

[quote]tinytyler wrote:
Looking for advice on my cycle, i’ve done one in the past. I ended up developing a bit of gyno from it because I didn’t properly cycle off of it. I’m 24 about 170lbs. I have a very clean diet. Here’s what I’ve got

Week before I start my cycle I will run cycle support (this will continue till the end of my PCT)
and also Liv.52 (this will end as the havoc ends)

Cycle

Week 1:
Havoc 20/20/20/20/20/20/20
Week 2:
Havoc 20/20/20/20/20/20/20
Week 3:
Havoc 20/30/30/30/30/30/30
Week 4:
Havoc 30/30/30/30/30/30/30
Week 5:
Havoc 30/30/30/30/30/30/30

During my pct I will be taking xtreme lean and load up on the creatine. Nolva will be my choice of serm and S.A.N. Myotest a week after I start nolva

PCT:

Week 1
Nolva 40/40/40/40/40/40/40
Week 2
Nolva 30/30/30/30/30/30/30
and Myotest
Week 3
Nolva 30/30/30/30/30/30/30
and Myotest
Week 4
Nolva 20/20/20/20/20/20/20
and Myotest
Week 5
Nolva 20/20/20/20/20/20/20
and Myotest

Does this look like a good cycle and pct. I’ve read I should use arimidex during my cycle, is this right? Also after my PCT ends I will use tribulus and ZMA everyday (which is what I normally do but not the full doses as the bottles state)

Any adivce would be great, not looking to get flammed just educated before I do this.[/quote]

Havoc (and Epistane) are actually designed for breast cancer, and should not cause gyno… i presume you had gyno after the cycle…

this also illustrates that you don’t wanna run an AI with these.

your starting dose is a bit low from cycles i used and read about other users… however, being safe is always a good idea.

as far as PCT, Nolva doesn’t need a large starting dose… 20 mg is nearly as effective as 150 mg of clomid.

^FYI, if you have joint issues, then i don’t suggest Havoc or Epistane… they’re great for lean muscle gains, but made my joints feel like sandpaper.

thanks cyco. Yes I developed the gyno after the cycle. And was too stupid to know what to do when it happened. I will be taking glucosamine for my joints, I usually don’t have issues with them. I do have a second bottle I was going to save but what if I threw it in to bump it up

Week 1
30/30/30/30/30/30/30
Week 2
30/30/30/30/30/30/30
Week 3
30/30/30/40/40/40/40
Week 4
40/40/40/40/40/40/40
Week 5
40/40/40/40/40/40/40

I don’t want to make gains so fast where my body will no keep most of it.

So definitely no AI during the cycle, any other recommendations? does my PCT look good? and should I bump up the havoc to the one above?

and is there something other than nolva that may do a better job at preventing/maybe getting rid of the gyno I already have?

[quote]tinytyler wrote:
and is there something other than nolva that may do a better job at preventing/maybe getting rid of the gyno I already have?[/quote]

honestly, Havoc works for a lot of people in getting rid of gyno.

Raloxifene is another SERM… while it isn’t nearly as powerful at raising LH and test as nolva or clomid, it binds much more strongly to the ER in breast tissue…

Ok it’s easier for me to get nolva. I’ll stick to that but I’m thinking I may use DAA as my test booster instad of myotest. Any thoughts on this?

Also since cycle support has several herbal ingredients in it, will it have any effect on the nolva? I’ve read herbal supplements could completely negate nolva’s affect. Any info on this??

[quote]tinytyler wrote:
Ok it’s easier for me to get nolva. I’ll stick to that but I’m thinking I may use DAA as my test booster instad of myotest. Any thoughts on this?

Also since cycle support has several herbal ingredients in it, will it have any effect on the nolva? I’ve read herbal supplements could completely negate nolva’s affect. Any info on this??[/quote]

i don’t know what myotest is, but i do think DAA should be useful in PCT. i would stop DAA a weak prior to Nolva, tho…

no idea about the interaction with Nolva and the cycle support…

bump

need feedback on nolva and possible interaction with cycle support!

also i’m running into a bit of a problem had to switch doctors because of insurance, my new one isn’t so nice on the idea of giving me tamoxifen. I found an online source but i’m not too sure the legitimacy of it. I ordered a 30 day supply to check it out but I am a bit concerned I won’t have the proper PCT. Any advice on this?! it’s completely thrown me for a loop :frowning:

bumppp

Just a quick update for anyone interested but mostly for myself to look back at. Finished my first week 30ED. I’m on day 3 of my second week, at the same dose. At 176 still the same bf 13%.

Everything has felt great so far, more energy and feel more pumped than normal during and after my workouts. No strength gains but endurance wise I can see a slight change. Able to bang out a few more reps and sometimes will get a crazy burst of energy mid workout. I have been eat more, keeping everything as clean as possible, eating about every 2-3 hours. If i’m hungry and I don’t have food on me I try to eat whatever is around that’s the healthiest (had to cave in to buffalo chicken pizza the other day though :confused: ).

The cons so far; random headaches, not bad, but very managable. Also I feel like my nuts slightly decreased in size. Just slightly. Maybe it’s just paranoia but they do seem smaller. I remember last time it took awhile for them to regain size after my cycle, but then again I didn’t post cycle correctly.

Also I have noticed my gyno is not as noticable and definitely not nearly as tender as it was before. I still don’t feel confident enough to wear a tight shirt but it is progress. I’ve been very skeptical as to believing Havoc will deminish gyno but if it does reduce it even the slightest bit I would be extremely happy.

You need some more products than just nolva in pct. I have ran nolva only pct and it was terrible. I would only run a serm for 4 weeks, I know nolva studies go to 6. But personally, between the mood, libido loss, and progesterone upregulation, I would not run it any longer than 4 weeks. I would actually use clomid or raloxifene even though a lot of people will tout that raloxifene does not have good testosterone boosting properties.

It has been my best pct yet, keeps gyno at bay, restored my libido to crazy levels (literally walking up stares I would be getting spontaneous erections). Do drop the ai on cycle, but add a low dose of a suicidal one to pct. If you do not lower total circulating estrogen and your aromatase enzymes, then when you stop taking the nolva your levels will fall back down soon after.

I would also toss in some zma at a low dose, d aspartic acid for 12 days, and perhaps something else for libido. If your libido is good, odds are your testosterone levels will be fine (as long as it isn’t a result of exogenous testosterone-yes i realize this isn’t 100 percent accurate either).

Contrary to popular opinion here, I would frontload the nolva. It has a very long half life and takes time to stabilize in your system. By frontloading with 40, you will speed up the process of it accumulating in your system. I would do something more like 60 for a day, 40/20/20/20 for 4 weeks if you already bought it. Otherwise, I would do 200 for a day, 100/100/50/50 of clomid. But that is just me. My favorite is raloxifene (120/90/60/60).
To illustrate an example of why I use nolva in pct, follow this.

Lets say your baseline levels are 600 ng/dl of testosterone. Multiply this by 1.5 (keeping these numbers conservative) and you have 900 ng/dl. This is fine while nolva is blocking your estrogen receptors. But as soon as nolva is discontinued, you have 900 ng/dl of testosterone that can convert into dht/estrogen, etc.

You can still have a lot of aromatization from cycle, and your body will want to be producing estrogen. Increased estrogen/progesterone/cortisol will cause a decrease in testosterone. You are not running a progesterone, so that is not an issue. There is almost no doubt that your cortisol and heart is in worse condition than pre-cycle. In addition, nutrient deficiencies, metabolic syndrome, etc, can also lower t levels.

It is best to stay lean and handle these sides. When your body is in a healthy state and at balance, it will recover better. I hope I helped.

I also realize your post was old… so take my advice as an “in the future” thing

[quote]Mennotinblack wrote:
You need some more products than just nolva in pct. I have ran nolva only pct and it was terrible. I would only run a serm for 4 weeks, I know nolva studies go to 6. But personally, between the mood, libido loss, and progesterone upregulation, I would not run it any longer than 4 weeks. I would actually use clomid or raloxifene even though a lot of people will tout that raloxifene does not have good testosterone boosting properties.

It has been my best pct yet, keeps gyno at bay, restored my libido to crazy levels (literally walking up stares I would be getting spontaneous erections). Do drop the ai on cycle, but add a low dose of a suicidal one to pct. If you do not lower total circulating estrogen and your aromatase enzymes, then when you stop taking the nolva your levels will fall back down soon after.

I would also toss in some zma at a low dose, d aspartic acid for 12 days, and perhaps something else for libido. If your libido is good, odds are your testosterone levels will be fine (as long as it isn’t a result of exogenous testosterone-yes i realize this isn’t 100 percent accurate either).

Contrary to popular opinion here, I would frontload the nolva. It has a very long half life and takes time to stabilize in your system. By frontloading with 40, you will speed up the process of it accumulating in your system. I would do something more like 60 for a day, 40/20/20/20 for 4 weeks if you already bought it. Otherwise, I would do 200 for a day, 100/100/50/50 of clomid. But that is just me. My favorite is raloxifene (120/90/60/60).
To illustrate an example of why I use nolva in pct, follow this.

Lets say your baseline levels are 600 ng/dl of testosterone. Multiply this by 1.5 (keeping these numbers conservative) and you have 900 ng/dl. This is fine while nolva is blocking your estrogen receptors. But as soon as nolva is discontinued, you have 900 ng/dl of testosterone that can convert into dht/estrogen, etc.

You can still have a lot of aromatization from cycle, and your body will want to be producing estrogen. Increased estrogen/progesterone/cortisol will cause a decrease in testosterone. You are not running a progesterone, so that is not an issue. There is almost no doubt that your cortisol and heart is in worse condition than pre-cycle. In addition, nutrient deficiencies, metabolic syndrome, etc, can also lower t levels.

It is best to stay lean and handle these sides. When your body is in a healthy state and at balance, it will recover better. I hope I helped.[/quote]

Appreciate the advice, but if you fully read my post I am taking ZMA and DAA post cycle as well as xtreme lean, creatine, and glutamine. I am keeping the Nolv at 5 weeks at those doses (or atleast similar dosages). I am on my 2nd day of week 3 of my cycle and feel pretty good. No headaches, my nuts aren’t smaller like I tought. That was probably in my head. Also my gyno isn’t better or worse, but it definitely not nearly as tender as it was. Post cycle will begin April 20th, so far I am going to keep my post cycle the way it is because ordering some new stuff may take too long to come in.

As for using an AI post cycle, I think thats a bad idea. That’s like asking for estrogen rebound after finishing post cycle. Nolva does a great job in blocking estrogen while raising LH. By slowly tapering off of it, and it’s my personal belief that post cycle should be similarly set up for the length of the cycle, I should be more than ok. My doctor put me on nolv to try to combat my gyno for over 4 months, dosed at 40 ED. Did not have any sides except for achy joints by the last month. Was popping boners every time the wind moved my pants!