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Advice on Different PCTs


#1

Hello,

first of all, my name is Hugues, I am a french 20 y/o boy who starts lifting at 15 y/o.
Since 2 years, I read a lot about AAS, about ancilaries, about PCT protocols to not screw up with my body, because health is the most important thing ever.
I read a lot about diet and training (diet is, as for me, the most important factor). I achieved a pretty bulky physique. (Pictures speak louder than words, so, there is a picture I took today at my gym.). Renember, I am natural, I HAVE NEVER TOOK ANY HORMONAL PRODUCTS (EVEN PH's or DS)

I gain weight (muscle, water, glycogen, fat) pretty easily. I am versed into High Volume training (I tried a lot of HIT style train but it doesn't do much for me). High volumes (12 sets, medium intensity) works for me. High carbs works for me. When i want to gain weight I can go as high as 700g carbs a day, and my protein intake is roughly between 300 and 400g. 100g of HEALTHY fats only. I have learned how my body reacts to food.

I plan to do a cycle since a lot of time, and I want to be sure ABOUT my PCT. A lot of website said to me that I can go as high as 750mg of TEST E formy first cycle, but I am going to play it safe. I have never done any AAS cycle, and I don't know how my body reacts to androgens. Maybe I am sensitive to estrogen, I don't know. So, that's my cycle :

CYCLE :

Weeks 1-10 Test E (500mg/week) FRONTLOADING with 1g test the first day
Weeks 1-6 Dbol (30mg/day)
Weeks 10-11 Methyldrostanolone (20mg/day) (to harden up)

Weeks 1-11 HCG (2x250iu/week)
Weeks 1-11 Vitamin E (1000iu/day)
Weeks 1-11 : AI Cycle support (1 scoop/day)(OTC supp)
weeks 1-11 Aromasin (10mg/eod) ONLY IF GYNO SYMPTOMS

PCT :

I don't want to use Clomid due to vision issues. So there is my PCT :

(Days after Last methyldrostanolone tabs)

Days 1-7 HCG (500iu/day)
Days 1-7 Aromasin (10mg/day)
Days 1-7 Vitamine E (1000iu/day)
Days 8-38 Nolvadex (20mg/day)
Days 8-38 OTC post cycle supps. (2x2tabs/day)
Days 8-38 Proviron (50mg/day) (NOT ESSENTIAL, but it helps with libido and DOESN'T shutdown, so I don't know)

I am thinking about add HMG (Metropin), but it's not necesarry.
I can maybe drop the sdrol and start my HCG during 10 days RIGHT AFTER my last test E shot, and start Nolvadex at the 11th day (Half-life of the test E)... But i am stuck.

I read a lot about PCT but I don't know what to choose, some sites say that the best PCT ever would be :

(1 week after last test E injection)

weeks 1-3 : HCG(500iu/day)
weeks 1-3 Vitamin E (1000iu/day)
Weeks 1-4 Aromasin (20mg/day)
Weeks 1-6 Nolvadex (20mg/day)

PCT is the most important in an AAS cycle. I want to be sure at 100% to have the best PCT I can have, even if I must pay 200 dollars+ for HMG vials.

Thanks for your help guys. And I apologize for my english...


#2

A non-American that can type correctly, speak pretty good English, and do their own research. I am in love.

I don’t have much in the way of help, but you seem intelligent and committed. Some of the vets will more than likely be in here soon to help you.

Good luck with everything man, stick around here.


#3

[quote]DOHCrazy wrote:
A non-American that can type correctly, speak pretty good English, and do their own research. I am in love.

I don’t have much in the way of help, but you seem intelligent and committed. Some of the vets will more than likely be in here soon to help you.

Good luck with everything man, stick around here. [/quote]

Your words touch me. It’s very kind to you to say that. Thanks man.


#4

Get a room you two…

Just a few recommendations

Be prepared to use more AI. You are using 2 aromatizeable steroids and don’t know how you will react so play it safe and have double the amount of AI that you think you’ll need.

I wouldn’t bother with the superdrol. Some people tolerate it okay but others experience unwanted and unexpected side effects. In a cycle of legit AAS it just doesn’t seem worth it. If you use the AI properly you shouldn’t have to worry about water retention. The water retention will fade fairly rapidly on its own when the cycle is done.

6 weeks of dbol is longer than normally suggested but certainly wont kill you. If you decide to ditch the superdrol I’d move the dbol to start in week 3 or 4. Or you can move it so the dbol ends in week 12 so you can start PCT the day after.

Don’t use the second PCT protocol you’ve listed. The hCG dosage is too high. 4 weeks of Nolvadex, tapered, should work just fine. Use hCG during the cycle, not during PCT.

If you are going to use the AI during PCT you should taper it down as PCT concludes.

I would not recommend proviron during PCT. It may not supress a normally functioning HPTA but it is probably not a good idea to use it while the HPTA is already supressed and attempting to recover.

I’m sure there is stuff I’ve missed so wait for some others.

And this is just my opinion but I don’t think it is the best idea for a 20 year old to use AAS. It’s your decision but understand the risks.


#5

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Get a room you two…

Just a few recommendations

Be prepared to use more AI. You are using 2 aromatizeable steroids and don’t know how you will react so play it safe and have double the amount of AI that you think you’ll need.

I wouldn’t bother with the superdrol. Some people tolerate it okay but others experience unwanted and unexpected side effects. In a cycle of legit AAS it just doesn’t seem worth it. If you use the AI properly you shouldn’t have to worry about water retention. The water retention will fade fairly rapidly on its own when the cycle is done.

6 weeks of dbol is longer than normally suggested but certainly wont kill you. If you decide to ditch the superdrol I’d move the dbol to start in week 3 or 4. Or you can move it so the dbol ends in week 12 so you can start PCT the day after.

Don’t use the second PCT protocol you’ve listed. The hCG dosage is too high. 4 weeks of Nolvadex, tapered, should work just fine. Use hCG during the cycle, not during PCT.

If you are going to use the AI during PCT you should taper it down as PCT concludes.

I would not recommend proviron during PCT. It may not supress a normally functioning HPTA but it is probably not a good idea to use it while the HPTA is already supressed and attempting to recover.

I’m sure there is stuff I’ve missed so wait for some others.

And this is just my opinion but I don’t think it is the best idea for a 20 year old to use AAS. It’s your decision but understand the risks. [/quote]

Thank you for your advices. I’ve thought a lot before choosing to run an AAS cycle. And I am just buying my stuff, I plan to do it not before october/december (I am born in february so I am at the end of my 20th years).
I prepared my diet, my training, my cardio. everything is ready.

I am at 220 lbs right now.

So…Yes, you’re right. I will drop the superdrol. I will have a lot of liver protector, so I thought that 6 weeks with a medium dose of dbol would be ok. Starting the 3th or 4th was my first idea, but another forum told me the contrary…

Yes, I wasn’t seeing the point to run HCG for 10 days just before PCT, because I run it throughout the cycle. That’s what I wanted to know.

Another forum told me to that I didn’t need to run an AI if I don’t feel any gyno symptoms (bloats, sore nipples…) but I first intented to run an AI throughout the cycle.

So…

That’s what we get :

CYCLE :

Weeks 1-10 Test E (500mg/week) FRONTLOADING with 1g test the first day
Weeks 4-9 Dbol (30mg/day)

Weeks 1-11 HCG (2x250iu/week)
Weeks 1-11 Vitamin E (1000iu/day)
Weeks 1-11 : AI Cycle support (1 scoop/day)(OTC supp)
weeks 1-11 Aromasin (20mg/eod) ONLY IF GYNO SYMPTOMS
Weeks 4-9 Essential Forte (300mg/day)

PCT (3 weeks after last test E injection)

Days 1-30 Nolvadex (20mg/day)
Days 1-30 OTC post cycle supps. (2x2tabs/day)

HMG ?
Must I extend the HCG to weeks 12 ?

Thanks.

PS : I wanted to use an AI during PCT because of the raise of estrogen of the HCG. Deleting the HCG in the PCT, I won’t need an AI anymore.


#6

Even if you don’t have symptoms of high estrogen, the test will still be aromatizing. You can just have it on hand, but be prepared to use it.


#7

[quote]DOHCrazy wrote:
Even if you don’t have symptoms of high estrogen, the test will still be aromatizing. You can just have it on hand, but be prepared to use it. [/quote]

Yes. And I am pretty afraid that 20mg eod of aromasin kill all of my estrogen. Estrogen have a lot of benefits too…But I prefer cut my gains rather than having a gyno surgery.

So, I just keep it on hand. And If I feel bloating or sore nipples, I run aromasin at 20mg eod ? (I’ll buy the double so)


#8

The above is NOT an AI mate. It will NOT suffice.

You are clearly gifted when it comes to building muscle, and you have a decent physique for a natty but you are trying too damn hard.

A cycle with 7+ ancillaries is no better than one with 1-2 ancillaries.

You DON’T need all the crap you added, especially the OTC stuff which is not sufficient for AAS cycles.

Aromasin, Tamoxifen and HCG are the ONLY estrogen control and PCT drugs you need.

So this is what i would do changing a few minor aspects of this considered cycle:

CYCLE:
Wk1-10 Test E 500mg (For a cycle with 250mg dosed twice weekly, a frontload of 750mg will be ample)
Wk7-12 Dbol 30mg/day
Wk1-12 Aromasin ~20mg ED (Adjust as needed - but i don’t recommend waiting till you need it)
Wk1-12 HCG 250iu E3D

PCT:
Wk13+14 Tamoxifen 40mg ED
Wk15+16 Tamoxifen 20mg ED
Wk13-16 Aromasin 10mg ED

Apart from removing the unnecessary products (feel free to add in vitamins/basic supps as you desire) This is the thinking behind it:

The Dbol is dosed as the gains from the Test slow to provide a real noticeable boost while giving total synergy plus providing a bridge between the cycle and the PCT.

Aromasin is to be used daily (split pills/caps if necc.) and adjust +/- as you require it.

HCG is used up until the PCT when it is stopped to prevent any further suppression.

Tamoxifen is used for your PCT - it is perfectly ample and does not need to be changed due to it being used for years.
I have added the aromasin in a low dose to the PCT because it(Estrogen reduction) increases Testosterone levels too and will assist recovery. The dose is lower than on cycle clearly as there is less androgen to aromatise.

Waiting to ‘feel’ bloating on Dbol is like waiting to need a shit - it WILL happen. Just use the AI at a low dose (from 10mg ED) and adjust upwards as you feel necessary)


#9

10mg ED of Aromasin is unlikely to ‘kill’ all of your oestrogen on a cycle such as this mate.


#10

[quote] Brook wrote:
Weeks 1-11 : AI Cycle support (1 scoop/day)(OTC supp)

The above is NOT an AI mate. It will NOT suffice.

You are clearly gifted when it comes to building muscle, and you have a decent physique for a natty but you are trying too damn hard.

A cycle with 7+ ancillaries is no better than one with 1-2 ancillaries.

You DON’T need all the crap you added, especially the OTC stuff which is not sufficient for AAS cycles.

Aromasin, Tamoxifen and HCG are the ONLY estrogen control and PCT drugs you need.

So this is what i would do changing a few minor aspects of this considered cycle:

CYCLE:
Wk1-10 Test E 500mg (For a cycle with 250mg dosed twice weekly, a frontload of 750mg will be ample)
Wk7-12 Dbol 30mg/day
Wk1-12 Aromasin ~20mg ED (Adjust as needed - but i don’t recommend waiting till you need it)
Wk1-12 HCG 250iu E3D

PCT:
Wk13+14 Tamoxifen 40mg ED
Wk15+16 Tamoxifen 20mg ED
Wk13-16 Aromasin 10mg ED

Apart from removing the unnecessary products (feel free to add in vitamins/basic supps as you desire) This is the thinking behind it:

The Dbol is dosed as the gains from the Test slow to provide a real noticeable boost while giving total synergy plus providing a bridge between the cycle and the PCT.

Aromasin is to be used daily (split pills/caps if necc.) and adjust +/- as you require it.

HCG is used up until the PCT when it is stopped to prevent any further suppression.

Tamoxifen is used for your PCT - it is perfectly ample and does not need to be changed due to it being used for years.
I have added the aromasin in a low dose to the PCT because it(Estrogen reduction) increases Testosterone levels too and will assist recovery. The dose is lower than on cycle clearly as there is less androgen to aromatise.

Waiting to ‘feel’ bloating on Dbol is like waiting to need a shit - it WILL happen. Just use the AI at a low dose (from 10mg ED) and adjust upwards as you feel necessary)[/quote]

First of all, thank you for your compliments.
But there is a misunderstanstood concerning the OTC supp.
AI Cycle support IS NOT “aromataze Inhibitor”. It’s a OTC supp for cholesterol, blood pressure, and liver (hawtorne berry, milk thistle, etc…). AI = anabolic innovation (the brand of the product). I need it bro.

Concerning your advices, everything seem logical. The dbol bridge is a good idea.
I didn’t know that exemestane during PCT will help by increasing T levels. I will follow what you said. So thank you man for your advices.


#11

Brook’s advice and example cycle are great. I would go with that, if I were you, OP.

I really like the dbol in weeks 7-12, too. I don’t know if you “came up with” that, or what, Brook, but I’ve never thought of it, and it makes such perfect, simple sense now that I am seeing it written down that I cannot figure out what I have never seen it before. Everything else is extremely well planned out, too, from what I know.

To the OP, I agree with DOH that you have a very nice attitude, a good grasp of the English language (better than many native English speakers, believe it or not), and have obviously done your research. Your physique looks great for a young natural guy, too! Please stick around.

One little piece of advice to you, though. “Advice” is a non-count noun, believe it or not. I would let it go, but if you have ever seen the film Pumping Iron, and listen for when Arnold is being interviewed and he talks about giving other competitors false “advices,” you’ll (now, I guess) catch that this word used in the plural has become a bit of a bodybuilding message board meme. “Advices” is always wrong. Use “advice” in every case instead (unless it’s a verb) and you are good to go. You don’t need much grammar correction at ALL, this just happens to be a bodybuilding joke, so I thought I’d better tell you.


#12

Geez Cortes, with you and I here, we’ll take over forum grammar in no time.

We’re like a grammar-nazi gang.


#13

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Brook’s advice and example cycle are great. I would go with that, if I were you, OP.

I really like the dbol in weeks 7-12, too. I don’t know if you “came up with” that, or what, Brook, but I’ve never thought of it, and it makes such perfect, simple sense now that I am seeing it written down that I cannot figure out what I have never seen it before. Everything else is extremely well planned out, too, from what I know.

To the OP, I agree with DOH that you have a very nice attitude, a good grasp of the English language (better than many native English speakers, believe it or not), and have obviously done your research. Your physique looks great for a young natural guy, too! Please stick around.

One little piece of advice to you, though. “Advice” is a non-count noun, believe it or not. I would let it go, but if you have ever seen the film Pumping Iron, and listen for when Arnold is being interviewed and he talks about giving other competitors false “advices,” you’ll (now, I guess) catch that this word used in the plural has become a bit of a bodybuilding message board meme. “Advices” is always wrong. Use “advice” in every case instead (unless it’s a verb) and you are good to go. You don’t need much grammar correction at ALL, this just happens to be a bodybuilding joke, so I thought I’d better tell you. [/quote]

Hehe, ok. Thank you for the compliments and for the grammar advice. Very very nice physique too man.
This forum seem to be one of the most knwoledgeable one about chemistry and AAS (I haven’t visist the other parts yet), and people seem to be very kind. It’s pretty rare. There is a lot of young kids who believe that they are authorities and give wrong advice to other. But here, only the knowledgeable one give advice. Some of you had started lifting before I was born I think. People (specially in BBing) MUST listen more experencied people, and I don’t know why on earth they don’t want to.


#14

Good job doing your research, and good job on the physique too. I agree with Brook with how he laid his cycle out, but I like the dbol at the beginning too. It is personal choice, both serve a purpose.

I also second the need for Aromasin whether you feel gyno or not. A dose of 20-25 mg is typically recommended, although you can play with the dose if you need to. I would start at the recommended dose for your cycle, especially with the dbol thrown in the mix.


#15

[quote]DOHCrazy wrote:
Geez Cortes, with you and I here, we’ll take over forum grammar in no time.

We’re like a grammar-nazi gang. [/quote]

Heh. The English language is my passion. I’m a writer, a student of my own language and others, and I’ve built a fairly lucrative business here based off on English, and yeah, I don’t have a lot of patience for its abuse.

OP, yours is perfectly fine, just so you know. The people I can’t stand are the ones who are supposedly native speakers, whose posts look like some new internet version of the Rosetta Stone.


#16

[quote]Cortes wrote:
DOHCrazy wrote:
Geez Cortes, with you and I here, we’ll take over forum grammar in no time.

We’re like a grammar-nazi gang.

Heh. The English language is my passion. I’m a writer, a student of my own language and others, and I’ve built a fairly lucrative business here based off on English, and yeah, I don’t have a lot of patience for its abuse.

OP, yours is perfectly fine, just so you know. The people I can’t stand are the ones who are supposedly native speakers, whose posts look like some new internet version of the Rosetta Stone. [/quote]

Hehe man. Thank you very much, but I know I have to do a lot of progress to deserve a compliment like that.

Noneteheless, I am a student in Cinema, and I hope to be a writer/screenwriter/director one day, so we have three things in common : Bodybuilding, writing, and being desperate by seeing our own languages totally…massacred.

:wink:


#17

Guys,

I have a last answer concerning the stuff that I need for injection. I don’t know anything about needles, syringes and IM injections. I searched and some website say 23g, other ones say 27g… What do you suggest ? (I would like to inject IM both HCG and test E, not subQ, because, as for a medical study, IM HCG is more bioavailable)

Thank you for your help, and good luck :wink:

PS : Do you have some personnal tips for the injection ? maybe a deep and slow massage after… I don’t know. There are a lot of stuff about that but I prefer listening experencied guys rather than Mister-Theory-Never-Did-Anything.

And, concerning the cycle, are 40mg of nolva the first two weeks of the pct really better than 20mg ? or maybe a dosage like 40/30/20/20 ?


#18

See www.siteinjections.com

Use a 23g to inject and that size or lower gauge to draw from your vial (if you are using vials). I use a different needle for drawing and injecting, but both are 23s and I used to just use the same needle. Some guys say you HAVE to switch pins. This is not at all true, and it’s not that big of a deal. If pins are cheap and easy to come by for you, then switch, though, as it does make the injection smoother.

Use an insulin syringe for HCG, as you’ll be shooting water, and there’s not reason to tear up your muscles shooting something that will go through a tiny needle. 27g is pretty thin, though, and would work for HCG. Insulin pins just make everything so much more simple.

Don’t worry about the massage or yoga after :wink: Just make certain you wash your hands and the injection site thoroughly before shooting. I wash my hands and swab the site with alcohol swabs, myself, then have a couple of extra swabs ready for applying after withdrawing the needle, as a bit of blood usually comes out.

Stick with glute (butt) or ventro glute (do a site search here) for your first injection. Very little chance of screwing anything up that way, IMO. Starting with quad is just asking for trouble.

Injections are NO BIG DEAL! I inject myself multiple times every day, and have injected myself with a 23g needle many many hundreds of times. No big deal at all.

Good luck!


#19

[quote]Cortes wrote:
See www.siteinjections.com

Use a 23g to inject and that size or lower gauge to draw from your vial (if you are using vials). I use a different needle for drawing and injecting, but both are 23s and I used to just use the same needle. Some guys say you HAVE to switch pins. This is not at all true, and it’s not that big of a deal. If pins are cheap and easy to come by for you, then switch, though, as it does make the injection smoother.

Use an insulin syringe for HCG, as you’ll be shooting water, and there’s not reason to tear up your muscles shooting something that will go through a tiny needle. 27g is pretty thin, though, and would work for HCG. Insulin pins just make everything so much more simple.

Don’t worry about the massage or yoga after :wink: Just make certain you wash your hands and the injection site thoroughly before shooting. I wash my hands and swab the site with alcohol swabs, myself, then have a couple of extra swabs ready for applying after withdrawing the needle, as a bit of blood usually comes out.

Stick with glute (butt) or ventro glute (do a site search here) for your first injection. Very little chance of screwing anything up that way, IMO. Starting with quad is just asking for trouble.

Injections are NO BIG DEAL! I inject myself multiple times every day, and have injected myself with a 23g needle many many hundreds of times. No big deal at all.

Good luck![/quote]

Thank you Cortes. Your advice is very helpful. I am going to buy 23g and 27g needles.


#20

Hi OP, I just thought I share with you my cycle information. I completed my first cycle and PCT a few weeks ago. I followed a lot of Brooksâ??s advice. I consider my first cycle a success. Aside from being able to keep a few pounds of the new muscle I gained, I did not have any serious negative side effects. I just experienced minor acne flare-ups during PCT. I am now preparing for my next cycle. After reading Brooks advice to you , I am considering doing the HCG from week 1 instead of waiting for 2 weeks as well as using Toremifene instead of Tamoxifen during PCT. There are a lot of knowledgeable folks in this forum. Keep on reading. Good luck on your cycle and keep us posted.

Here’s the link to my log: