T Nation

Advice for Third Run Test/Tren/Dbol/Winny


6'4" Tall
Lifting 9 years

My goal is to start working toward competitive lifting, so strength and size gains are what I'm looking for. Someday I would like to weight in at 300lbs shooting for 280 @ 15%...

Weeks 1-4 Dbol 40mg ED (dosed 3 times a day)
Weeks 1-10 Test E @ 750mg per week Test E would be E3D injections (FL, how much is optimal 750mg first shot?)
Weeks 1-8 Tren Ace @ 400mg per week (how should this be shot E3D EOD?? Dosage good?) (FL, how much is optimal 400mg first shot?)
Weeks 8-10 Winstrol Oral @ 50mg ED (should / could this be run longer)
Adex Weeks 1-12 .25ml EOD (might need to kick this up a notch with all this gear>)
PCT Nolva starting @ week 12 40/40/20/20
Proscar (finasteride) and tetracycline daily (I have always been on these)

I have some Deca as well, not sure if it fits in anywhere or could replace something but the whole Deca dick thing sounds like shit!

This is my first cycle this complex so I would love to get flamed and correct as I don't want to mess myself up. Come on Brook, you know your shit so lets hear it.

Thank you much,



How many cycles you done mate, and what is the goal for this particular run - ie. what would you be happy with?



Well this will be number three... Goal is to mass / strength gain, I would like to see 20 to 30lbs on this run, I plan to start eating whole animals soon. Really looking to be Lou size 6'4" 280lbs or so... If I can achieve this goal I will be getting on stage this time next year. I promise to start a log on that if it happens.


For the most size i would go Test, Nand, Dbol.

It is too involved as it stands and it does not need to be - especially for a bulking cycle.

Whatever you do decide - i would drop the Stan (save it for shows only), and choose one between Nand and Tren and add that to the Test and Dbol.

Doses of the T and dbol are fine IMO. the Tren you will certainly lose appetite with around those doses.
When the Tren drops down in dose to accomodate higher caloric intake - then by then the Nand will give more bang for the buck IME anyway.

Coupled with the water on the joints, and a high level of protein synthesis - deca is a great bulking drug.

(Before the haters pipe up - this is not about its effects as a Progestin, as that wasn't the question).

Of course when all is said and done, no-one keeps 30lbs even if some is fat.. and having a goal of 30lbs seems modest to most, but when you realise just how long it takes to get 30 of the leanest pounds while controlling bodyfat (long term) - you realise it is well out of scope for a single cycle.


Ok so you would go with Nandi over Tren? If I go with the Deca what should my dosage be and what weeks would "you" recommend it run and keep in mind I have a very demanding Wife i.e. no deca dick.

For example

Weeks 1-4 Dbol 40mg ED
Weeks 1-10 Test E @ 750mg per week Test E would be E3D injections (Front Load 750mg first shot)
Weeks 1-8 Deca (MG? EOD, E3D?) (Front Load, how much is optimal?)

I hear you on the keeping of gains, but I have had some really good luck with that. In any event I plan to run 2 more cycle between now and showtime so we will see where I am at come September of next year or so... Thanks for your help and advise, also take a look at the front loads if you could.


I wasn't just talking about keeping gains but also the physiology - 10lbs of actual tissue is a great gain IMO - add SC water, IM water (cell volumisation) and fat this can soon be at 25lbs...

Anyway - Deca (Nandrolone) is a tricky one. If you cannot risk a significant drop in libido then it should not be used, as while some have no issue, many more do and some of course have terrible problems.

Dopamine agonists will help to a large degree as will AI's (with the Aromatisable steroids) - especially when there is a Progestin in the stack..
Then the inclusion of a DHT source is also important - which the Test'one should provide - but then of course higher dose androgens cause libido issues for many men also - so using AAS is going to be a risk for anyone when it comes to libido.

I only say this as many here are under the impression that Testosterone = Good, and Nandrolone = Bad, with Nandrolone being the only drug that increases prolactin and the only one worthy of a slogan to describe its potential negative effects on sexual function. This is clearly not the case.

ANYWAY... As i said, there are ways to use low dose Nand in a cycle with little issue but of course not using a progestin is going to be safer in that regard.

I am not in the habit of telling someone what to run, so you need to make the decision - weigh up the factors and decide what is right for you.

As for dose, i personally like 200-300mg of nandrolone - you are a big guy so may use a little more... 300-400mg. but IMO 500+ is just not useful (IMO 200mg is great and all the progestin one would want to introduce to their body).


OK so 400mg it is, what about front load and weeks on? Say 400mg front load and weeks 1-8 at 2x per week sound good?

Question, if I do have any issues with the Deca will backing the dosage down take care of it? Half life is around 6 days correct? So I would be looking at a week to get back to normal...

Thanks again,


No you wont be looking at a week to get back to normal. If you have 400mg in your system and the half life is 6 days, which I am not so sure that isn't longer, you'd have around 200mg left after a week. While that isn't a high dose it won't allow you to get back to normal if you are already suffering from progestegenic effects. Even if you 0mg of nandrolone in your body, based on half life and dosage, I am going to say that it will take some time to get back to normal. I beleive that high progestin levels are more stubborn than high estrogen levels meaning it takes longer for the body to regulate itself.

My recommendation is that if you don't plan on accquiring pharmacy grade cabergoline don't bother with nandrolone.


I should have said that unless you know how you react, libido wise, to a certain dose of nandrolone make sure you are prepared to handle the effects with the proper drugs


Yes but there is only one why to find out how I will react, and I have no idea where to get cabergoline??


I did assume i had been clear enough in my advice, but i feel i need to clarify as you clearly do not get the point.

I am fast learning that i cannot give 'tid-bits' of useful information without listing the exact specifics of a protocol, as the receiver simply picks out two words - the drug name and the dose, and ignores the rest of the post.

Forget i said that:

Which you ignore totally with the only reference to the post coming from the highest possible dose you could use:

OK so 400mg it is

Next time i am just going to shut the fuck up unless i am willing to commit.

The main lasting problems from the drug seem to be from prolactin. This is inhibitive to the HPTA further to the androgen and estrogen levels, and it also has negative effects on libido separately to this.
Prolactin will 'linger' for some time after the source is removed (whether the progestin or the estrogen (or both in this case).

I am sorry that i said Nandrolone to you now - but the question was (essentially) what is best for bulking (tren or nand) and my answer was Nandrolone for the reason given. I wrongly assumed that you would be able to make the correct decision as long as i went into some depth, which i felt i did.

I should have realised my mistake with your goal of the cycle to get from where you are now (assuming your pics are in the last couple of years) to lou ferrigno's size in one cycle.

It may help you to put things into perspective to know what i am running currently:

700mg Test prop and 350mg Drol. Compare -

Weeks 1-4 Dbol 40mg ED (dosed 3 times a day)
Weeks 1-10 Test E @ 750mg per week Test E would be E3D injections (FL, how much is optimal 750mg first shot?)
Weeks 1-8 Tren Ace @ 400mg per week (how should this be shot E3D EOD?? Dosage good?) (FL, how much is optimal 400mg first shot?)
Weeks 8-10 Winstrol Oral @ 50mg ED (should / could this be run longer)

And you see a point i think.

And to make sure you do - Test E at 750mg/wk and Dbol at 30-50mg/day will be a very effective bulking cycle.



I totally get what you are saying and by no means do I think I'm going to be the HULK at the end of this cycle. Although that would be cool, I have had some very outstanding gains on cycle and been very fortunate enough to keep them to a good extent. 280lbs is my goal indeed a big one but I will stay positive and believe I can obtain this goal in the next year or so:) I am no part time lifter, eating is my second job and lifting is my religion, I don't miss a meal or a workout period.

Now back to the discussion, I will kneel out and give you the floor. It is painfully obvious that your knowledge far exceeds mine, this is the reason I called on you for advise. Please guide me in the right direction, I have read up on the topic and have a childlike grasp in understanding. You said I'm a larger person so I could move the dosage up to 3 or 4 hundred I chose 400mg because this is close to half the amount of test i'm planning to run. I have Deca and Tren on hand so IYO what would be the best route? I dropped the Winny and will save it for now "I have 40ml of it staring at me":slight_smile: So my cycle is going to look like (Test /(Tren or Deca) / Dbol). Are you saying the third compound in this cycle will add no benefit and a Test Dbol only cycle will be good enough? Please note that I have not had any negative sides in any past cycles and my recovery seems to be completely painless and quick. I'm sure due in part to proper planning and execution, including past advise directly from you.

Ok so my mouth hurts from blowing your ego, so I say again you know and I don't please make it clear what is the educated non stupid thing to do here, other than not to use any AAS until I understand it better. Saw that one coming...