Which 4 throws are your go-to’s?
Major out side sweep
Minor out side sweep (sneaky)
Head lock throw - which depending if you are half hip or full hip is two throws technically but I count it as one. This is ideally used after a defence of the major out side sweep.
Lastly the one I used the most (as I’m heavy and strong) step over drop throw. Tai Otoshi - Japanese name.
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I’m guessing the first one is Osoto Gari but I’m not sure about your middle two. I’ve only trained BJJ, not judo. My stand-up game is not what I’d call highly refined.
My favorite takedown at the bar was just getting to a clinch of some kind and seeing what’s both necessary and available. It all depends on what’s happening, but the clinch is a good spot to figure out a situation. I’d put good old Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi at #2, getting used at least four times I can recall. I like Sasae because it’s not super-aggressive and you get to guide them to the floor as opposed to slamming them with full force. Works great on misguided drunks.
The result of a good Sasae is “He tripped and fell”, which is a lot easier to explain to any cops, judges and lawyers than “Oops I slammed his brains into the parking lot with a drop Seio Nage”.
Also belts, grab them by it and be a dude who has lifted weights for years (as I hope most on this site are).
On the mats I like snap-downs and playing off that reaction with ankle picks, another part of the leg if I can grab it and getting to a clinch and controlling either their torso with hooks or their hips was always something I hunted for. Or arm-drag and take the back if they let you.
That is the minor out side sweep. Yeah gentlemen’s sweep. No great landing and all you need is a to pull their shoulders up as they fall l, and they land on their arse and not their back and or head.
Better than a full Osoto Otoshi where you can get someone air borne and smash their head into a kerb.
Seio Nages are great. But typically at lower skill levels the entrance goes wrong. The opposition will drop their hips really quickly. Which is why the school I went to taught Tia Otoshi. It’s where we ended up after trying the first throw.
Funnily enough a drop seio nage finished my judo off. The fella I was fighting was almost their but I defended. But he was a black belt. And pumped the position. I should have given in and done my break fall but I fought it that much that by the time I was over I landed on my shoulder.
No rolling, straight down.
It was one of those times I just knew it was bad. It took me 6 weeks to regain full use of the arm. Silly sports really.
Training with any degree of intensity can be very silly at times. I think learning how to set your own boundaries in training is, in fact, a core element of self-defense. It is up to everyone to manage their own training priorities and even your mat experience. Learning how to say “no” to rolling with some knucklehead might be a good first step to a person who has never told someone like that “no” before.
I’m game to bang, but not every day, all day. I’m in my 40’s now, and at this point a hobbyist. I’m no longer working at a job where I’m likely to be punched at certain intervals.
Everyone I consider a credible BJJ instructor in the area is also someone I completely trust in training. That doesn’t mean shit won’t ever happen, but training with conscientious movers has served me well when looking for the sweet spot of intensity, effort and safe movement while pursuing technical refinement and improved outcomes on the mat.
Seems like it, but a good technician makes techniques work. I’ve worked throws into plenty of fights from a clinch because it’s something I know that I can make work.
Go figure. Just because somebody wants to throw haymakers doesn’t mean I’m going to let him.
This. I’ve seen this repeatedly at least with people who are skilled wrestlers. It didn’t matter that the context was a bar or frat house instead of a wrestling mat; they could use the same techniques to quickly tie up a belligerent drunk and make him not want to fight anymore. I can’t speak to how well this works with BJJ, but I would think it would play out similarly.
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I don’t know anything about bjj, but I consider moving your opponent so that you can make your moves work a universally essential fight skill. From how and where you move, whether you close distance, grapple, strike, withdrawl, etc. If you aren’t in control of it, your opponent is. That’s the primary advantage an attacker has, and why real violence usually happens very fast.
My one old coach used to absolutely hammer home the lesson that you have to wrestle your own match, not theirs. That has had great carry over to real fights.
Edit: It also pays to study up a little bit on how people get jumped. There are a couple really common maneuvers that are easy to avoid if you know what you’re looking at, but absolutely devastating and virtually indefensible if you get caught in one.
Since I have trained Boxing mostly and some dutch kickboxing. I will post the video bellow.
This is an excellent Boxing technique Vs multiple attackers. They don’t teach the backwards stepping and hitting in Dutch KB. But these are the first things you learn in amateur boxing how to punch going forward, backwards and to the sides. You need excellent footwork in self defence situation to make up for the defence and there is literally no other better sport to teach you the technique to do so. Also in self defence you cant really afford to kick due to shoes, terrain, clothes and that kicks are slightly slower. You may easily fall.
Also notice the power of a good technique jab. He is able to both keep distance and knock down people.
Sure a wrestler can possibly take him down and beat him. But how many wrestlers are you meeting in a street fight? Lastly there is a possibility a jab meets to launching wrestler and he ends up in the same situation as the others.
Lastly, I would like to remind that Boxing comes from the European fencers who knew a thing or two about survival fights and dueling, when adding to their hand to hand combat.
Well…
Interesting. I’m guessing that the guy in this video was also practiced at keeping his cool under extreme stress so that his skill doesn’t break down. That’s an asset in and of itself. Most people will get scared, mad, or some combination of the two in a confrontation.
Well if you make 2-3 amateur fights, you are kind of used to that high adrenaline pump.
This is why I actually recommend a fight sport. You have the environment to compete in fights. And boxing and kick boxing fights are no joke for one’s health. You can test yourself in a real surviving environment, with some restrictions of course. But I am not sure other methods can teach you that much about your abilities than a fight.
Keep in mind I haven’t fought due to injury before an event. But I went trough a camp where spars were like fights. I did not want to fight again after the camp. And the guy I was going to fight was going to destroy me. I am still scared of what it could be if I made it to the fight.
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Here’s what good BJJ looks like being led from the front.
You see I call that Judo. However the shared history between them means the cross over is high. So if this is what you’re BJJ school is teaching then I would agree. That’s spot on.
When I did BJJ it was ALL ground work. Even sparring started on the knees and you where not allowed to be on both feet to stop you from standing up to walk around the guard.
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To me, that shouldn’t fall under the umbrella of BJJ. BJJ earned it’s reputation by being effective in combat, not contrived scenarios.
What you’re describing to me is sport grappling at best, imitation martial arts at worst.
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Chushin (old poster from back when) explained to me that -do indicates the sport/americanized version and -jitsu as the traditional combat form of the martial art. Jujitsu Judo, Akijitsu Akido etc. Paraphrasing of course. He knew much more about that than a punter like me.
Guy in that insta vid is slick. He knows what he’s going to do befor he ever touches them.
That’s my instructor’s coach. He runs the local hardass factory and has, by far, the best room of black and brown belts in the area. The magic of really good players like him is that he doesn’t know what he’s going to do, nor does he particularly care. He will take whatever you present to him and then turn it all into shit for you.
Sparring with him is like sparring with Darth Vader. In fact, he can even make you choke yourself. This isn’t core curriculum material, just fun sport stuff.
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I feel like a big part of it is pushing people through the “BJJ machine”
If you do everything from the knees, you can have a LOT more students per floor space at any given time, which means higher attendance and more dues. I’ve been in PACKED classes where I took harder strikes from wildly flailing limbs from dudes rolling NEXT to me on cramp mat spaces.
I feel like BJJ was suffering from what happened to Tae Kwon Do. It became real popular, everyone wanted in, and schools were all too willing to water things down to get in higher attendance.
I say “was”, because it’s been over a decade since my last class. No idea what things are like these days.
Packed mats and injury management are a great reason to put stand-up on hold for that day, but not every day. Not if you want to learn how to fight. If the space is too small a good school will move into a better space that allows training to be done.
No doubt about this at all. I’ve witnessed it. I’ve rolled with “black belts” with actual certificates explaining their legitimacy, given to them by legit competitors from Brazil who never coached them. Needless to say, that is a much different quality of “black belt” from the black belt in the video above.
There’s nothing stopping someone like that from opening up their own crap school and charging people money to attend. Some of these schools seem to operate like pyramid schemes. There is an abundance of gyms with the names of legendary Brazilians on the gi patches, but no legendary Brazilians are coaching anyone there.
If you go to the guy in the video and ask to see his BJJ Black Belt certificate, he will almost certainly laugh in your face. He’d be glad to show you his credentials, however.
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They guy teaching that was a Rickson purple belt.
I just think it was a different time. One of the thing I LOVE about BJJ is it was (is) so young and had no hang ups going - “does not work. Change.”
There was not traditional way to do anything. Firstly it was too young for tradition. Secondly its all about being effective.
My mate was a blue belt under Renzo and flew to New York for some training. When he was there, they were changing the syllabus as Eddie Bravo has just beaten Royler. And they were taking in the changes Eddie was making. Evolving, keeping up.
My mate said if they regraded him out there he would not have gotten a blue belt. There were some fundamental changes. Especially to the no-gi stuff they did.
So I do get what you are saying. Now - my lesson in 2001-2004 might not be called BJJ. But at the time it was different.
Where as Japanese JJ is “the same” now as it was in 1300? Like there have been no advancements in technique or weaponry…
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