T Nation

Advice for Next Cycle Components


#1
        Hey guys,

I'm quite near the end here of the 4 week shorty run of testphenylprop/masteron. It's been a great ride, again though, sides have raised their head towards the end after upping the dose a tad.

Now I can't remember the exact ratio, Bushy could help here, but I think it was one third or so of masteron, to the rest of the test. So, whilst running 400mg total, and adex at .25, up to .5mg a day, there were no sides at all.

Therefore, my tolerance level for test seems to be at or around 270-300mg per week. Yeah that sucks I know. I figured the adex would handle things, but it's either underdosed,(very doubtful/good source), or I'm just that sensitive.

Last Wednesday, I upped the ante on the quad shot from .5, to around 1.25ml. Friday went with approx the same, 1.25ml, and by sometime over the weekend or Monday, the nips were taking a beating from the gyno fairy. Nothing crazy, but some slight pain, def harder and so I have since increased adex to .75/day, and started running nolva at 40mg/day. I threw in the nolva since there are only 3 more days left, and wanted to take care of currently circulating estro.

      So, here's the predicament. I want to design a longer estered cycle, duration 12 weeks, and am not sure what to do about our favorite "base", good ol test.

I don't want to be playing back and forth with the nips, though they still look and feel ok. So, I could go with a small amount of test,(side free range), and mix in some other items, or leave it out altogether with a well designed protocol.

The possible suspects would be:
1. Masteron enan
2. Eq
3. Tren enan
4. Primo
5. Test (under400/week)

I have aquired a 4 week supply of drol/winnie, which is waiting in the wings for either a solo run, or a nice addition to anything that comes up.

              Now the tren would have the cloud of Prolactin induced gyno staring me in the face, which in light of the situation, doesn't feel all too cozy, but I imagine a low end dose would be fairly ok, and it is such a wicked compound for hardening etc. 

    So, what do you guys think about this?

                 thanks,

                 ToneBone

p.s. I'm looking to harden/lean up at this point with regards to diet.


#2

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.


#3

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Well I have in the past enjoyed a cycle of test/mast/primo

the T was 300mg/wk, mast 150 and primo 600.

My goals were the same as yours really. ‘tighten up’ a bit, and if I put on some exta muscle - bonus!

My advice would be to either try and run something like that, or possibly run 300test, plus 200mast and the anadrol/winstrol combo.

Strange how you are so sensitive to gyno/E.

Mind you, my student clinician in my first year studying chiro was carrying around some MASSIVE fibrous lumps behind his nips, just from 400mg/wk test. Silly man never heard about nolva or a’dex…

Still, you experiences have taught me to recommend a trial run of the drugs, to anyone considering a high-dose shorty, for safety sake.

Bushy[/quote]

    Thanks Bushy,

That would be a winning hand there as I see it too. Though it seems the primo is rather hard to come by these days, and a bit pricey though injec is much better than oral.

      Unless something popped out of nowhere, the second is looking to be in the top choice for combos thus far for sure. Funny I'm sensitive to this level, although if you look at Schwarz's latest gyno/estro thread, it looks like he feels the sides at a dose of 200-300/week also. 

         Thanks for the advice, and I look forward to more "ideas" from all my friends here.

#4

Hey TB

I see you’re unsure of the “elixir” dosage. If memory serves it was 150mg test + 46mg mast per ml.

As for your long cycle, why not just run a longer estered version of your shorty? You know how you respond to these compounds now, and although some people report different sides from different esters, I imagine there would be less difference than if you ran tren, for instance.

The only things I would avoid at this stage personally (from theory, and a little experience) are Tren and EQ.

I say Tren because;
1)Horrific supression
2)You’re incredibly gyno-prone, so it’s probably best to not mess with test and 19-nors just yet. I know that they’re different mechanisms, but it’ll just complicate things if something goes awry.

I say EQ simply because it needs to be ran for aaaaages to get the full benefit, apparently.

Primo sounds like a good option to “pick up the slack” from the reduced test dosage though.


#5

Why not switch your test use from prop to enanthate? For one reason or another, I don’t get as bad of aside effects from enan as I do with prop.

Also, concerning tren-- I’ve seen that tren enan is much easier to “adjust” to and its side effects are quite mild and sometimes non-existent. I just got done running some tren ace and after the first several days, it was marvelous.

My recommendation is a moderate dose of test with a low tren dose for 12 weeks altogether. Kick it off with 4 weeks of drol/winnie, and then run tren for 4 weeks, stopping one week before your cycle ends…

Especially since you are wanting to harden up, I love what tren has done to my physique…

Maybe something like this:
test e - 400-500mg/wk
tren e - 300-400mg/wk
drol- 100mg/d
winny- 50mg/d

And always keep Adex just in case… but don’t use it right off the bat.

My advice is to stay away from EQ, what I’ve seen with folks running it is that to be most effective, it needs to be run 12-16 weeks which I am sure you’re not keen to do.

Just few thoughts…

World


#6

I’ll toss in opinion for what it is worth. I would suggest test/tren/mast/tbol, all enthanate. Low doses of all of course but as mentioned previously tren is great for hardening. I will be running this combination this summer. Although I have no first hand experience yet on the effect of this stack I wouldn’t be running it if I didn’t think it would be kick ass.

Good luck Tone.


#7

[quote]Dave_ wrote:
Hey TB

I see you’re unsure of the “elixir” dosage. If memory serves it was 150mg test + 46mg mast per ml.

As for your long cycle, why not just run a longer estered version of your shorty? You know how you respond to these compounds now, and although some people report different sides from different esters, I imagine there would be less difference than if you ran tren, for instance.

The only things I would avoid at this stage personally (from theory, and a little experience) are Tren and EQ.

I say Tren because;
1)Horrific supression
2)You’re incredibly gyno-prone, so it’s probably best to not mess with test and 19-nors just yet. I know that they’re different mechanisms, but it’ll just complicate things if something goes awry.

I say EQ simply because it needs to be ran for aaaaages to get the full benefit, apparently.

Primo sounds like a good option to “pick up the slack” from the reduced test dosage though.

[/quote]

         Dave,

Thanks for your input. I agree, and have already assumed the test enan/masteron in enan esters would be awesome. I could even out the two compounds more and that in and of itself would be nice for me…Say 300 test enan/300 mast enan, no?? What would be wrong with that?

            Seems doable there, and I have the drol/win which would compliment that very nice too for the kick after a week or whatnot.

                   TBN

#8

[quote]World1187 wrote:
Why not switch your test use from prop to enanthate? For one reason or another, I don’t get as bad of aside effects from enan as I do with prop.

Also, concerning tren-- I’ve seen that tren enan is much easier to “adjust” to and its side effects are quite mild and sometimes non-existent. I just got done running some tren ace and after the first several days, it was marvelous.

My recommendation is a moderate dose of test with a low tren dose for 12 weeks altogether. Kick it off with 4 weeks of drol/winnie, and then run tren for 4 weeks, stopping one week before your cycle ends…

Especially since you are wanting to harden up, I love what tren has done to my physique…

Maybe something like this:
test e - 400-500mg/wk
tren e - 300-400mg/wk
drol- 100mg/d
winny- 50mg/d

And always keep Adex just in case… but don’t use it right off the bat.

My advice is to stay away from EQ, what I’ve seen with folks running it is that to be most effective, it needs to be run 12-16 weeks which I am sure you’re not keen to do.

Just few thoughts…

World
[/quote]

        Again, as I said to Dave, that was an obvious route, switching out the esters. Good one too, but I'd go with a slightly lighter amount to check it out. Say more like 300T/300TR. I say, leave the test lower than other guys would, for the obvious reasons, up the other compound(s), and just keep the sides from arising in the first place. Also, I would need some caber around for a "just in case" scenario, which is more fundage...Looks like another good one though.

               Thanks..

#9

[quote]2thepain wrote:
I’ll toss in opinion for what it is worth. I would suggest test/tren/mast/tbol, all enthanate. Low doses of all of course but as mentioned previously tren is great for hardening. I will be running this combination this summer. Although I have no first hand experience yet on the effect of this stack I wouldn’t be running it if I didn’t think it would be kick ass.

Good luck Tone.[/quote]

           Now here's my favorite really so far.

If it was easy for me to get a handle on, I would probably go this route. But finance etc would inhibit this from coming full circle, SO…I would say low test, low-moderate dose tren, moderate dose mast.

         I'll do w/out the tbol.

This would be pretty sweet I would imagine, unless there is some reason one shouldn’t run either at a higher than test level…Which I don’t see here…

                  Thanks bud.

                  TBN

#10
       Well it looks so far, that the most probable, financially reasonable, and attainable cycle would be the same ingredients, but just in the long ester.

          Say 300mg test enan/week.
          and 300mg mast enan/week.

Toss in the drol/win jump and that’s looking fairly nice now isn’t it? Some of the others look more interesting for certain, but as Dave said too, I’ve already run these and know what to expect. There’s plenty o’ life left in me to explore further into the realm of the dark side.

So, that’s some hard to argue with reasoning for #1.

Finance/Ease of attainability/Safety/Reliability.

         New thoughts gentlemen?

#11

[quote]InTheZone wrote:
So, that’s some hard to argue with reasoning for #1.

Finance/Ease of attainability/Safety/Reliability.

New thoughts gentlemen?[/quote]

Financially, the Test E/Masteron/Winstrol/Anadrol approach would be most economic.

Ease in attaining, however, might vary. For example, you’re looking for Masteron Enanthate, which is hardly a product easily found. That goes for Primobolan as well.

Safety-wise, they’re all fairly safe to the relative population. Of course, you’re rather prone to Estrogen side-effects (I don’t start feeling gyno until I break the 800mg mark, but get acne at ~350mg). For which reason you’d obviously down-size on the weekly dosage.

Reliability, as you know, will vary from person to person.


#12

[quote]Contrl wrote:
InTheZone wrote:
So, that’s some hard to argue with reasoning for #1.

Finance/Ease of attainability/Safety/Reliability.

New thoughts gentlemen?

Financially, the Test E/Masteron/Winstrol/Anadrol approach would be most economic.

Ease in attaining, however, might vary. For example, you’re looking for Masteron Enanthate, which is hardly a product easily found. That goes for Primobolan as well.

Safety-wise, they’re all fairly safe to the relative population. Of course, you’re rather prone to Estrogen side-effects (I don’t start feeling gyno until I break the 800mg mark, but get acne at ~350mg). For which reason you’d obviously down-size on the weekly dosage.

Reliability, as you know, will vary from person to person.
[/quote]

              Thanks for your thoughts Contrl.

Yes I forgot since having the masteron of late, just how hard it can be to get. It’s a sought after compound which isn’t easily available, good point. Wow, that’s cool you are able to sail upwards to the 800/week mark with no problems…I would like to be able to do that, but at least I am fully aware of my limits, and can structure around them with good results. This recent outing has me quite content, and stoked to see what I can achieve on a longer cycle with slightly altered amounts of the same compounds, in enan esters. Like upping the mast to closer to one to one with the test enan.

              Now it's strange to me that world posted about getting fewer sides from T enan, vs. T prop. I've always heard the opposite, but these things are so varied from person to person.

                Thanks for the help, it's always a pleasure to have your insights Contrl. 

                    ToneBone

#13

So, you’re ready for a 12 weeker? That’s great news, Tone.

The only problem I have read about winstrol is that it may cause your connective tissue to become brittle. I’d love to do a cutting cycle, but with my biceps tendons… not with winny.

Also, are you gonna try PCT taper?

Invest some more money on your backyard gym; you’re gonna need it!


#14

[quote]kroby wrote:
So, you’re ready for a 12 weeker? That’s great news, Tone.

The only problem I have read about winstrol is that it may cause your connective tissue to become brittle. I’d love to do a cutting cycle, but with my biceps tendons… not with winny.

Also, are you gonna try PCT taper?

Invest some more money on your backyard gym; you’re gonna need it![/quote]

     The winz is coupled up to the drol. The interesting thing is their same class synergy. Between the two, pretty much both compounds' sides are nullified, this including any joint issues, for me. One is wet, one is dry, thus equilibrium all around for both in a very condensed sense. Seems to go for any drol gyno as well. From what I've read, and I could be wrong, that usually doesn't surface, or isn't near as bad, when it's used w/out any other aromatizing compounds, and or, in conjuctiion with winstrol. However if it is used with a high amount of test or similar, then one could be in for a doozy of some fucked up gyno from both I suppose.

               Oh, by the way, backyard gym is pretty darn solid at around 12K of commercial equip. 

MWAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

                 ToneBone

#15

[quote]kroby wrote:
So, you’re ready for a 12 weeker? That’s great news, Tone.

The only problem I have read about winstrol is that it may cause your connective tissue to become brittle. I’d love to do a cutting cycle, but with my biceps tendons… not with winny.

Also, are you gonna try PCT taper?

Invest some more money on your backyard gym; you’re gonna need it![/quote]

Oh yeah, sorry, ummm No, no taper. Traditional pct, not enough test for a taper.

                   TBN

#16
        So, then. It looks like the preferred choice for some very good reasons is test enan at 300/week or so. And a nice dash of Masteron, if available. Say 300/week.

And a jigger of drol/win, at the early phase of the cycle, say the first 4 weeks?, or could even split that up to two different two week slots??..Hmmmm.

             The tren sounds delightful, but I think I'll save that for the one after this one. I would tend to think this would be pretty solid for me, that is considering the gains I made from the 4 weeks of testphenylprop/mast at a low dose of what the majority of said cycle was only at around 400-500mg/week combined total of the two compounds. The ratio was around 150/50 of test/mast respectively. So what do you guys think if I change it to 100/100 or something like that, with a much higher content of masteron to even things out? Thus lessening the test a little, but spiking the mast considerably?

           Is there any reason this wouldn't be ok?

And wouldn’t there be better gains with the increased amount of mast, to approx the same test for the cycle?

                 ToneBone

#17

[quote]InTheZone wrote:

        So, then. It looks like the preferred choice for some very good reasons is test enan at 300/week or so. And a nice dash of Masteron, if available. Say 300/week.

And a jigger of drol/win, at the early phase of the cycle, say the first 4 weeks?, or could even split that up to two different two week slots??..Hmmmm.

             The tren sounds delightful, but I think I'll save that for the one after this one. I would tend to think this would be pretty solid for me, that is considering the gains I made from the 4 weeks of testphenylprop/mast at a low dose of what the majority of said cycle was only at around 400-500mg/week combined total of the two compounds. The ratio was around 150/50 of test/mast respectively. So what do you guys think if I change it to 100/100 or something like that, with a much higher content of masteron to even things out? Thus lessening the test a little, but spiking the mast considerably?

           Is there any reason this wouldn't be ok?

And wouldn’t there be better gains with the increased amount of mast, to approx the same test for the cycle?

                 ToneBone[/quote]

You have a couple options with the drol+winny. Most folks would like a kickstart with it, and others would wait till the class I was in full swing. I did both recently in my current cycle and
loved the results. Course then again I am running much higher test than you’re considering-- 800mg/wk.

My thoughts on the matter are to run them for week 1. Then wait until week 5 or 6 to run them when you’re test gains begin to slow down. Then end your cycle with 3-4 weeks of masteron because of its hardening and anti-e effects.

And as always, with your e issues, make damned sure you have Adex on hand, but don’t use it until necessary. However, if you do get gyno from the drol, remember you will need nolva for that. Also, perhaps if/when you use the Adex this time, keep it at a lower more frequent dose? Just a thought.

As far as how much mast to use to test. It’s always been my preference to use half the amount of mast as test. And if I were you, I’d run test at 400 a week with the mast at 200. And of course when you use the drol+winny, don’t be scared to increase the dose a bit, you’ll be glad you did. The gains I saw from doubling my drol+winny dose were unbelievable. I used to be a 25mg winny and 50mg drol kind of guy, but since I’m never going to run them more than 3 weeks at a time, I doubled it 50+100 and am damned glad I did.

I really wish you’d give the tren a shot (literally, 2 weeks of em), but hey to each his own. The enanthate ester seems to have just as good size and hardening effects as acetate, but the strength gains are not nearly as dramatic-- constant and definitely noticeable, but nothing insane like the acetate.

Also, I remember you had mentioned my statement regarding the enanthate ester. For one reason or another, short esters seem to bother me and other people more than a longer one when it comes to sides. I’m not sure why, you’d think it would be the other way around because of the fact a short ester exits your system in a quicker manner. Perhaps it is the slower sustained release? I’m unsure, but I know for a fact I’ll test enan over prop, mast enan over mast, and possibly tren enan over ace from what I’ve seen so far in some of my trainees. Weird, they’re the same compound, but the difference in esters makes one hell of a difference.

World


#18

I’ll trade you sides. I’d take the gyno. For awhile I’ve been having flushing, headaches, foggy head, high bp, but I could take about anything and not get gyno symptoms. For your cycle I would do the test e and mast e at the dosages you listed and do the drol/winny fairly high dose weeks 1,2,5,6,7,8. You pretty much know what your limits are for the injectables and if the orals give you problems you can get off and back to normal quick. That’s how I would test the tren on your next cycle or whatever too. Take test at a dose you’re used to and add in tren a. You can go up slowly and bail if you have bad sides.


#19

[quote]World1187 wrote:
InTheZone wrote:

        So, then. It looks like the preferred choice for some very good reasons is test enan at 300/week or so. And a nice dash of Masteron, if available. Say 300/week.

And a jigger of drol/win, at the early phase of the cycle, say the first 4 weeks?, or could even split that up to two different two week slots??..Hmmmm.

             The tren sounds delightful, but I think I'll save that for the one after this one. I would tend to think this would be pretty solid for me, that is considering the gains I made from the 4 weeks of testphenylprop/mast at a low dose of what the majority of said cycle was only at around 400-500mg/week combined total of the two compounds. The ratio was around 150/50 of test/mast respectively. So what do you guys think if I change it to 100/100 or something like that, with a much higher content of masteron to even things out? Thus lessening the test a little, but spiking the mast considerably?

           Is there any reason this wouldn't be ok?

And wouldn’t there be better gains with the increased amount of mast, to approx the same test for the cycle?

                 ToneBone

You have a couple options with the drol+winny. Most folks would like a kickstart with it, and others would wait till the class I was in full swing. I did both recently in my current cycle and
loved the results. Course then again I am running much higher test than you’re considering-- 800mg/wk.

My thoughts on the matter are to run them for week 1. Then wait until week 5 or 6 to run them when you’re test gains begin to slow down. Then end your cycle with 3-4 weeks of masteron because of its hardening and anti-e effects.

And as always, with your e issues, make damned sure you have Adex on hand, but don’t use it until necessary. However, if you do get gyno from the drol, remember you will need nolva for that. Also, perhaps if/when you use the Adex this time, keep it at a lower more frequent dose? Just a thought.

As far as how much mast to use to test. It’s always been my preference to use half the amount of mast as test. And if I were you, I’d run test at 400 a week with the mast at 200. And of course when you use the drol+winny, don’t be scared to increase the dose a bit, you’ll be glad you did. The gains I saw from doubling my drol+winny dose were unbelievable. I used to be a 25mg winny and 50mg drol kind of guy, but since I’m never going to run them more than 3 weeks at a time, I doubled it 50+100 and am damned glad I did.

I really wish you’d give the tren a shot (literally, 2 weeks of em), but hey to each his own. The enanthate ester seems to have just as good size and hardening effects as acetate, but the strength gains are not nearly as dramatic-- constant and definitely noticeable, but nothing insane like the acetate.

Also, I remember you had mentioned my statement regarding the enanthate ester. For one reason or another, short esters seem to bother me and other people more than a longer one when it comes to sides. I’m not sure why, you’d think it would be the other way around because of the fact a short ester exits your system in a quicker manner. Perhaps it is the slower sustained release? I’m unsure, but I know for a fact I’ll test enan over prop, mast enan over mast, and possibly tren enan over ace from what I’ve seen so far in some of my trainees. Weird, they’re the same compound, but the difference in esters makes one hell of a difference.

World[/quote]

        Hey world,

Ok, first off, I would run the two combined through the whole cycle, test/mast. Drol/winnie has never given me any gyno problems and I’ve done at least 3 cycles of them.

Adex at a lower, more frequent dose???
Shit I’m taking it every day as I indicated, how could I possibly take it more frequently bro? Ha, haaa…And I started at a lower dose, only increasing it when the nips started hardening a bit.

The drol/win dose doesn’t need to be increased either world. I always run it at 100/50 each per day. This is plenty, not sure where you thought I was running lower, as I’ve indicated quite a few times on difft threads that this is how I run it.

     Nice ideas on the tren. I would prefer the enan, as I need/like to keep the shots frequency down.

                  later gator,

                     TBN

#20

[quote]Pretzel Logic wrote:
I’ll trade you sides. I’d take the gyno. For awhile I’ve been having flushing, headaches, foggy head, high bp, but I could take about anything and not get gyno symptoms. For your cycle I would do the test e and mast e at the dosages you listed and do the drol/winny fairly high dose weeks 1,2,5,6,7,8. You pretty much know what your limits are for the injectables and if the orals give you problems you can get off and back to normal quick. That’s how I would test the tren on your next cycle or whatever too. Take test at a dose you’re used to and add in tren a. You can go up slowly and bail if you have bad sides.[/quote]

      Lol!!, yeah no shit, sounds like you got quite a dose of sides this last time eh? I am pretty happy as I don't have any permanent disigurement from the gyno symptoms I've gotten in the past, so I guess I got on it quickly and it didn't fester for too long a time initially.

    So akin to lil guys' attitude, hey they seem to just chill once you take appropriate action,ie:adex/nolva.

   I can only imagine what someone with a really bad case of gyno would be going through though. That would suck.

         Anyway, I really like your idea pretzel. Only I only have 4 weeks of the drol/win. So maybe early weeks and later for 2 weeks each. Looks good.


                    thanks.

                   ToneBone