T Nation

Advice First Cycle - Healing, Injury Recovery


#1

You should not use anabolics as a beginner. You should reach your natural potential first.

Okay, tried that. To cut the story short I spent years and hundreds of hours of gruelling, soul destroying work just to retain part of my lean mass. An undiagnosed health problem sent my thyroid hormone levels through the roof. The usual symptoms of muscle wasting and fat gain did not manifest themselves due to my heavy, consistent lifting.

I then spent a long time immobilised with major fractures caused by very low bone density - advanced osteoporosis. This was from the thyroid malfunction. It leeched all the calcium from my bones and the elevated calcium in my blood was poisoning me and it began to make me really sick - dizzy, weak, light headed, feinting / loss of consciousness, involuntary muscle spasms and then seizures and memory loss.

I got myself walking with great pain and immediately began training - hundreds of daily bodyweight squats then split squats and so on. All the while my fractured vertebrae and legs and ribs and sternum and fingers and bones in my feet had not knitted properly as I couldn't heal properly with drastically elevated thyroid hormone levels. Thyroid hormones are essential for cellular repair and bone, muscle and soft tissue growth / healing.

Got stabilised and got my hormone levels fixed. Thyroid tumours removed and I can expect an average of 10-12% bone density increase over the next few years just from the repair of thyroid function. Add weightlifting to that and I can expect significantly more bone density increases on top of that.

However, over the last six months I've upped my training intensity and added more load and volume and have made significant strength gains however all my injuries, illness and pain has made it a sissyphusian endeavour. I need to heal. That's how I began to get interested in the healing properties of anabolics - especially Deca. And the ability to grow new tissue and skeletal mass from pituitary hormone. Of course, my endo would never prescribe anything like that. I have a good source who can also provide Clomid and injectable test to protect my liver from orals and provide a better uptake.

I've read up on cycling and how to recover and restore natural test production, how to minimise side effects. I also know how important it is - especially for me - to monitor bloods regularly and to ensure I have enough estrogen so my bone density doesn't get worse.

Right now my natural test is very high(32 out of 35. Above 35 = unnatural) but my eStrogen is a little high too. Gruelling workouts produce significant strength gains but little if any mass and I'm already coming to the end of my beginner gains and reaching a plateau. I'm only doing a cycle to heal my injuries and restore some bone density but obviously I want to use the opportunity to gain mass and hold onto as much of it as I can post-cycle.

I was considering a Deca / injectable test cycle of 6 weeks followed by 4 weeks recovery then maybe the same again or 4 weeks on / 3 weeks off. It depends on how I respond and how quickly I'm able to restore natural test production.

One concern I have is losing ability to create my own test and being in a position where I have low test, high estrogen because endos won't do much to help and I could really ruin myself if I get into such a condition.

I've read about studies done on rats showing Deca's healing potential and the lean mass gains you can get from a well designed cycle but this stuff is complicated and potentially harmful so I really want to run it by some guys in the know. That means you Bill.

Any advice?


#2

That’s a lot of info. This is what I’m asking:

  1. Anyone know how athletes generally tailor a stack for injury recovery?

  2. How might a first ever cycle tailored towards injury recovery look?

  3. Might it look something like this for a guy who has naturally high test

Week 1-2 450mg test enan and 400mg Deca

Week 3-4 750mg test enan 400mg Deca

Week 5-6 450mg test enan 400mg Deca

Week 7-10 recovery. And Clomid and as much recovery additionals as possible. No aromatise inhibitors as I don’t want to have to worry about wiping all my estrogen out. It’s vital for bone density as you probably know. I want to go pretty high on dosage as I have a lot to gain from a first cycle if it’s effective. I’d put up with acne for a few weeks to get back some bone density is what I mean. But I need to be able to restore natural production easily.


#3

A few things…

What is your age, height, and weight?

Give us a general idea of how much you’re capable of lifting.

What country do you live in?

Do you know the half-life of Deca? (hint: it’s much longer than you seem to think it is… this cycle is bad).

Do you care about being able to achieve an erection over the course of the next 6 months to a year?

You said your estrogen is already a little high… are you SURE you don’t want to run an AI?

Answer all these questions, and I’ll try to help you.


#4

Flip, go check out his thread in the beginners section. I wouldn’t touch this with a 50 foot pole.


#5

[quote]flipcollar wrote:
A few things…

What is your age, height, and weight?

[/quote]

37, 187cm, 85kg

i can’t lift in useful rep range for most lifts now due to injury but if I wanted to risk shoulder pain or worse I could probably bench press 100kg without too much trouble. But largely untrained overall.

What does where I live have to do with anything? If you want to know specifics it’s enanthanate 250mg vials(Depot-250) and Deca-Durabolin 100mg vials but I haven’t purchased yet and have other options. I was considering Sustanon-250 instead of

I added more Deca but I didn’t think to consider the long half life carrying over into recovery weeks. I want to go heavy on Deca to try to get the most from its healing potential in a first cycle. I’ll check the half life and shift it to finish early enough not to go into recovery weeks.

If it works to restore significant bone density then no I don’t care. But would obviously avoid if possible.

It’s not outside of the “normal” range for a man of my age it’s just at the higher end of “normal”. I’ll use an AI if needed but it means I’ll have to keep monitoring my blood all the time and if my eStrogen gets too low I wouldn’t know what to do other than tell my GP or endo so they could restore levels and stop the cycle. I just want to minimise risk and complication.

[quote]

Answer all these questions, and I’ll try to help you.[/quote]

Okay, done.


#6

[quote]chrono wrote:
That’s a lot of info. This is what I’m asking:

  1. Anyone know how athletes generally tailor a stack for injury recovery?

  2. How might a first ever cycle tailored towards injury recovery look?

  3. Might it look something like this for a guy who has naturally high test

Week 1-2 450mg test enan and 400mg Deca

Week 3-4 750mg test enan 400mg Deca

Week 5-6 450mg test enan 400mg Deca

Week 7-10 recovery. And Clomid and as much recovery additionals as possible. No aromatise inhibitors as I don’t want to have to worry about wiping all my estrogen out. It’s vital for bone density as you probably know. I want to go pretty high on dosage as I have a lot to gain from a first cycle if it’s effective. I’d put up with acne for a few weeks to get back some bone density is what I mean. But I need to be able to restore natural production easily.

[/quote]

this cycle sucks.

if you’re looking for the recuperative effects of Deca (vs massive gains), then you can run 100-200 mg/wk.

Deca is horribly suppressive, and one needs to treat elevated prolactin levels when using it.

i’d do more research into the cycles for injury threads around here…


#7

[quote]dt79 wrote:
Flip, go check out his thread in the beginners section. I wouldn’t touch this with a 50 foot pole.[/quote]

When it comes to legitimate reasons for using anabolics I think I’m ahead of most people here. How much I lift has absolutely nothing to do with it. I had a medical condition that caused enormous damage and there’s no way to repair that damage beyond what’s already mentioned here. Why on earth would you “not touch that” but advise people how to use anabolics for bodybuilding?


#8

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]chrono wrote:
That’s a lot of info. This is what I’m asking:

  1. Anyone know how athletes generally tailor a stack for injury recovery?

  2. How might a first ever cycle tailored towards injury recovery look?

  3. Might it look something like this for a guy who has naturally high test

Week 1-2 450mg test enan and 400mg Deca

Week 3-4 750mg test enan 400mg Deca

Week 5-6 450mg test enan 400mg Deca

Week 7-10 recovery. And Clomid and as much recovery additionals as possible. No aromatise inhibitors as I don’t want to have to worry about wiping all my estrogen out. It’s vital for bone density as you probably know. I want to go pretty high on dosage as I have a lot to gain from a first cycle if it’s effective. I’d put up with acne for a few weeks to get back some bone density is what I mean. But I need to be able to restore natural production easily.

[/quote]

this cycle sucks.

if you’re looking for the recuperative effects of Deca (vs massive gains), then you can run 100-200 mg/wk.

Deca is horribly suppressive, and one needs to treat elevated prolactin levels when using it.

i’d do more research into the cycles for injury threads around here…[/quote]

I didn’t know there were any. I’ll look into it thanks. But I’m looking for bone growth which isn’t quite the same thing as soft tissue injury healing. That’s why I went into detail in the OP.


#9

[quote]chrono wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]chrono wrote:
That’s a lot of info. This is what I’m asking:

  1. Anyone know how athletes generally tailor a stack for injury recovery?

  2. How might a first ever cycle tailored towards injury recovery look?

  3. Might it look something like this for a guy who has naturally high test

Week 1-2 450mg test enan and 400mg Deca

Week 3-4 750mg test enan 400mg Deca

Week 5-6 450mg test enan 400mg Deca

Week 7-10 recovery. And Clomid and as much recovery additionals as possible. No aromatise inhibitors as I don’t want to have to worry about wiping all my estrogen out. It’s vital for bone density as you probably know. I want to go pretty high on dosage as I have a lot to gain from a first cycle if it’s effective. I’d put up with acne for a few weeks to get back some bone density is what I mean. But I need to be able to restore natural production easily.

[/quote]

this cycle sucks.

if you’re looking for the recuperative effects of Deca (vs massive gains), then you can run 100-200 mg/wk.

Deca is horribly suppressive, and one needs to treat elevated prolactin levels when using it.

i’d do more research into the cycles for injury threads around here…[/quote]

I didn’t know there were any. I’ll look into it thanks. But I’m looking for bone growth which isn’t quite the same thing as soft tissue injury healing. That’s why I went into detail in the OP.
[/quote]

http://www.ghrnet.org/index.php/ijo/article/view/976/1079


#10

[quote]chrono wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:
Flip, go check out his thread in the beginners section. I wouldn’t touch this with a 50 foot pole.[/quote]

When it comes to legitimate reasons for using anabolics I think I’m ahead of most people here. How much I lift has absolutely nothing to do with it. I had a medical condition that caused enormous damage and there’s no way to repair that damage beyond what’s already mentioned here. Why on earth would you “not touch that” but advise people how to use anabolics for bodybuilding?
[/quote]

I will not engage you in a meaningless back and forth. You may do what you want. Just giving a bro a heads up so he knows who he’s dealing with.

EDIT

As an abstract example, seeing your post history, something nonsensical may turn up 3 or 4 pages and a couple of months later like, “I had existing neurological problems which I didn’t think was relevant enough to mention since I clearly know more than everyone else, now I have permanent loss of penile sensation because I listened to all the idiots spouting bro science in the steroid forum even though they gave me the proper advice based on the info I was selectively parting with.”


#11

[quote]chrono wrote:
That’s a lot of info. This is what I’m asking:

  1. Anyone know how athletes generally tailor a stack for injury recovery?

  2. How might a first ever cycle tailored towards injury recovery look?

  3. Might it look something like this for a guy who has naturally high test

Week 1-2 450mg test enan and 400mg Deca

Week 3-4 750mg test enan 400mg Deca

Week 5-6 450mg test enan 400mg Deca

Week 7-10 recovery. And Clomid and as much recovery additionals as possible. No aromatise inhibitors as I don’t want to have to worry about wiping all my estrogen out. It’s vital for bone density as you probably know. I want to go pretty high on dosage as I have a lot to gain from a first cycle if it’s effective. I’d put up with acne for a few weeks to get back some bone density is what I mean. But I need to be able to restore natural production easily.

[/quote]

Thanks for answering those questions. I read your other thread in which you didn’t disclose enough information to get proper help, and I saw how unreceptive you were to advice. But I’ll still give you some.

Also, you said you didn’t think it mattered what country you’re in. I asked the question because it’s relevant to what sort of assistance you may be able to attain from a physician, the availability of certain drugs, etc. It’s most definitely a relevant question. I wouldn’t give the same advice to someone in the US as I would to someone in, say, Egypt. The laws and quality of specialist physicians are very, very different.

Anyway, to answer your questions posted here:

  1. you’re not an athlete. What an athlete would do for recovery is far different from what you would do. There is a difference between recovering from a chronic illness versus (more along the lines of what you have) versus an acute illness or injury. Treatments vary tremendously, and athletes would generally be dealing with the latter.

  2. a cycle of steroids should not be tailored to recovery. Physiotherapy is tailored to recovery. Prescribed medication is tailored to recovery. A steroid cycle of this sort is not. Deca is not going to solve your problems. And as has already been mentioned, strictly therapeutic amounts would be substantially lower, more like 100mg/week. And it would probably be run over a longer period of time, although this is something I would talk to a professional about.

  3. Your ‘naturally high test’ is completely irrelevant to the question, as your natural test production will drop to ZERO if you run this cycle, or a similar one. You’re lucky to have naturally high test. Take advantage of this. You clearly haven’t yet.

All that being said, I am not willing to assist you on a steroid cycle any further, as I do not believe it’s a good idea in your situation.


#12

i guess i’m curious as to how you have “naturally high testosterone levels?” have you had blood work, or are you making an assumption?

if you’re planning on undertaking chemical assistance, then you need to get bloodwork (testosterone, estrogen, prolactin…)…


#13

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
i guess i’m curious as to how you have “naturally high testosterone levels?” have you had blood work, or are you making an assumption?
[/quote]

I’ve been lifting for five years with about 18 months off with injuries and illness. When I was struggling just to maintain strength I had blood work done and had very high test. It was partly the heavy lifting and diet I imagine. Since then I’ve had it tested several times including recently by my endo. My hormone levels are fine - estrogen a little high but normal - and I don’t need anabolics to gain strength. I need them to restore bone density. But any muscle mass gains will improve my health and reduce the chance of injury and so on.

[quote]
if you’re planning on undertaking chemical assistance, then you need to get bloodwork (testosterone, estrogen, prolactin…)…[/quote]

Yes of course. I mentioned how vital it is I monitor my estrogen on AI so I don’t get any further damage. In fact, the risk for me here is not anabolics but rather AI. I can’t afford to wipe out all my estrogen or I’ll make my problem worse not better.


#14

what’s you estradiol level right now? are you on an AI?


#15

Your country gives us some ideas about what medical services are like there.

Please go to the testosterone replacement forum and read the ‘advice for new guys sticky’.

I have seen a deca only cycle lead to total HPTA failure. Deca is not a human hormone and some are vulnerable to permanent epigenetic changes.


#16

[quote]chrono wrote:
and I don’t need anabolics to gain strength. I need them to restore bone density. [/quote]

If you NEED them to restore bone density, then why hasn’t a doctor recommended this course of action? If you’re truly interested in this from a medical recovery perspective, why are you dealing with the situation by talking to guys on an internet forum and not a doctor?

Also, heed the advice of KSMan. He and Bill Roberts are far and away the most knowledge sources of info on this site.


#17

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

Thanks for answering those questions. I read your other thread in which you didn’t disclose enough information to get proper help, and I saw how unreceptive you were to advice. But I’ll still give you some.

Also, you said you didn’t think it mattered what country you’re in. I asked the question because it’s relevant to what sort of assistance you may be able to attain from a physician, the availability of certain drugs, etc. It’s most definitely a relevant question. I wouldn’t give the same advice to someone in the US as I would to someone in, say, Egypt. The laws and quality of specialist physicians are very, very different.

Anyway, to answer your questions posted here:

  1. you’re not an athlete. What an athlete would do for recovery is far different from what you would do. There is a difference between recovering from a chronic illness versus (more along the lines of what you have) versus an acute illness or injury. Treatments vary tremendously, and athletes would generally be dealing with the latter.

  2. a cycle of steroids should not be tailored to recovery. Physiotherapy is tailored to recovery. Prescribed medication is tailored to recovery. A steroid cycle of this sort is not. Deca is not going to solve your problems. And as has already been mentioned, strictly therapeutic amounts would be substantially lower, more like 100mg/week. And it would probably be run over a longer period of time, although this is something I would talk to a professional about.

  3. Your ‘naturally high test’ is completely irrelevant to the question, as your natural test production will drop to ZERO if you run this cycle, or a similar one. You’re lucky to have naturally high test. Take advantage of this. You clearly haven’t yet.

[/quote]

Maybe you didn’t read close enough. I’m the guy who lifted clean for years till my bones broke then got out of bed and kept lifting with little to no gain and you’re a guy who takes or took anabolic steroids to increase your numbers or bulk up for a bodybuilding competition. I’m the one who’s been condescending you. I know anabolics pack on huge volumes of lean mass without even working out and I know you’re one of the resident “experts” on anabolics so why would a guy like you be condescending me?

[quote]

All that being said, I am not willing to assist you on a steroid cycle any further, as I do not believe it’s a good idea in your situation.[/quote]

That’s probably best. Your judgement is clearly unsound and you have some fantasy world you’ve constructed for yourself. I’m the guy who works out consistently for years clean with chronic illness and injuries + massive thyroid malfunction and you’re an expert on anabolic steroids telling me I haven’t taken advantage of my natural test in between fractures. You’re confused.


#18

[quote]chrono wrote:
Maybe you didn’t read close enough. I’m the guy who lifted clean for years till my bones broke then got out of bed and kept lifting with little to no gain and you’re a guy who takes or took anabolic steroids to increase your numbers or bulk up for a bodybuilding competition. I’m the one who’s been condescending you. I know anabolics pack on huge volumes of lean mass without even working out and I know you’re one of the resident “experts” on anabolics so why would a guy like you be condescending me?

That’s probably best. Your judgement is clearly unsound and you have some fantasy world you’ve constructed for yourself. I’m the guy who works out consistently for years clean with chronic illness and injuries + massive thyroid malfunction and you’re an expert on anabolic steroids telling me I haven’t taken advantage of my natural test in between fractures. You’re confused.
[/quote]

I didn’t think I was being condescending. Not sure why you think that. I didn’t see anything in any post that would indicate you’re an athlete. You said yourself you’re only benching around 100kg. You never said you play sports at a competitive level. You’re more than welcome to correct me if I’m wrong.

I understand the severity of your setbacks. Those are tough circumstances.

As for me not knowing what it’s like to train naturally, you couldn’t be more wrong. I squatted 400+, benched 300+, and deadlifted 500+ naturally, at a bodyweight at about 85kg. I competed athletically as a natural. I’ve been assisted for less than a year. Don’t give me this garbage that I don’t know what it’s like to train hard. I trained for a decade naturally.

Let me be very clear. I’m not suggesting that you didn’t take advantage of your natural test levels in between fractures. I’m suggesting that, now that you’re getting past that point, and your issues have been largely addressed, it would be wise to continue to train naturally for now, because your medical issues have set you back so much in the past. You just seem impatient. Over the next few years, you have indicated that your bone density will continue to improve. No need to rush that process by using Deca. The risks, in my opinion, greatly outweigh the rewards. Personally, I wouldn’t use Deca for any reason.

EDIT: the weights I posted are in lbs, not kg. just to clarify.


#19

I don’t think you’ve been a member of this forum long enough to make such a general assumption about a well respected member. Flipcollar has proven his “natural” physique and strength many times before using AAS to stubborn fellas like you.


#20

[quote]chrono wrote:
I know anabolics pack on huge volumes of lean mass without even working out…[/quote]

Was this supposed to be a secret? I’m sure I’ve written many times that most of us don’t train. All I do is sit on the couch, eat nachos and gain 20lbs of muscle in 10 weeks. Why burn extra calories that can be used for growing? That’s like, so meathead brah!

Although I’m going to regret this, in the event that your motivations for AAS use is not only for healing, I feel the need to inform you that the studies that led you to make that statement are bullshit. 6-10lbs is the typical amount of water weight gained using 600mg of testosterone without the use of an AI to control estrogen. Since there is no possibility of measuring intramuscular water retention, this is classified as LBM, non-fat mass.