T Nation

Advice about BF's PH Use - It Killed Our Sex Life


#1

First, let me start off by saying I'm an FA member who recently began frequenting this side of the Biotest sites, and I'm in awe by you all. Seriously, you guys are the shit. The knowledge base some of you maintain is truly incredible, so hats off to you.

Second, I'm not one to put my personal life on blast, but I'm having a serious issue with my fiance and would greatly appreciate any advice/input you fellas would be willing to share. My man has run cycles of steroids off and on since he was about 21. I'll give you his stats before I go into further depth:

Age: 29
Height: 5'9
Weight: 208
B/F: 11-12% (estimate)
His last cycle was Test (PCT was Nolva) about a year and a half ago and he's been AAS-free since then. For the past several months work has gotten even more demanding than normal (he averages 72 hrs/wk) and he basicaly turned into a walking zombie.

As you can imagine, our sex life started to suffer. We have always had a rockin sex life so when the frequency was cut more than in half, I took note. He started exhibiting signs of low T (lack of morning wood, mass & strength loss, fatigue, drop in libido, etc) so I got him on some ZMA and it helped a bit UNITL about 2 months ago. He was at our local mom-and-pop supplement store and bought this supplement called Spawn by Myogenix.

I don't know much about it other than it's a PH (contains 30 mg Estra-4,9-diene-3,17-dione & 8mg 2a,3a-epithio-17a-methyletioallocholanol). As soon as he started taking it, the bedroom activity started suffering even more. His size & strength gains in the gym increased and his desire for sex increased, but he couldn't finish the race, if you know what I mean. This went on for the entire 30 day cycle.

Now, he's been off it for about 2 wks & it's getting worse. He's so tired he can't keep his eyes open past 8pm, he has no desire for sex, and when we do have sex he can't keep it hard. He's never used a PH before and this kind of reaction has me worried.

Can you please help me get my man back on track? Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated. Thanks much guys!!


#2

Spawn is the problem.

Ive been ranting about this for months now.

"Spawn" is a combination of havoc/epistane, the epithio compound, which is perfectly safe, clean and effective.

Combined with this god awful progestin based compound they sell under the name "extreme tren" or trenador or something.

Basically its closer to birth control than steroids, has been on the market for a few months at most, has no testing of any kind, has SIGNIFIGANTLY higher progestin activity than anabolic...

Ok yall get the picture, Ive ranted about this before many times.

Its horse shit. Terrible stuff. Its what killed his sex drive in the first place.

I see no mention of PCT for this 30 day run.

You will want to aquire Nolva, Tore, Clomid as quickly as possible.
Standard SERM PCT should be run, and continued at a low dose, 20mg+ depending on SERM choice, if nolva, 20mg/day, until he feels normal agian, reguardless of how long that takes, sometimes this takes months.

Letro or adex can also be used. And will be the quicker solution.

The ^^^ above AI's can be used in conjunction with the SERM, this is preferable and will lead to the quickest recovery.

Hes suffereing from estrogen rebound, and probably some ill effects from the ridiculous progestin compound, the designers of which should be shot.

I highly recommend he stick with test or REAL steroids from now on. PH are just poorly made, generally less effective and in this case more dangerous versions of AAS.

Real AAS were designed by countless chemists and physicians for the treatment of wasting disease patients, its safe and effective when used correctly.

If he insists on using PHs for whatever reason, have him check out the Steroid section, we have some prohormone stickies that are quite long and informative.

And I can answer most questions on most PH's on the market. Feel free to PM me.


#3

I am sorry to hear that it must be frustrating for you.

I know a couple of friends who have taken that product and he definitely needs to take a SERM PCT such as nolva as he did in the past.

The bad thing about these new designer steroids (what you are calling a PH) is that we don't really know the action of them. For instance, the Estra-4,9 is touted as some sort of "tren" hormone but no one really knows how it acts. Could be prolactin based side effects that are giving him his troubles but can't be sure.

I would guess a simple nolva PCT for 4 weeks would set him straight. Tell him to stick with Test and the real deal from now on. Safer in the opinion of many.


#4

And THIS is exactly the reason I posted here...very informative, thorough answers from you both. Very much appreciated!

Here's the kicker...ready for it...HE DID NO PCT!!! I just found this out a couple days ago and about shit a brick when he told me. Of course I asked him if he had researched what he was taking or even knew what the hell it was BEFORE he took, it and he sheepishly told me he hadn't. Insert freak out here.

Don't ask me what the hell he was thinking because I truly can't tell you, but he got more than an earful from me about it. He's been taking the REAL shit for years now, so you'd think he would know better but I guess he slipped. He won't ever be dabbling with PH or designer steroids again, that's for sure.

My questions now: 1) Since 2 wks have elapsed since he stopped taking the Spawn, do any extra steps need to be taken before the SERM or will the Nolva at 20mg/day until he feels normal suffice? ( I will try to get him to use an AI in conjunction w/ the SERM as recommended).

2) He was talking about starting a cycle of TEST in a week or so. Will this "fix" his issue, or should he do the PCT for the Spawn FIRST, go through his normalization period, THEN start the Test?

Honestly, frustrated is not even the word. You believe the designers should be shot...I'd be happy to do the dirty work for ya! Awful shit! Anyway, thanks again for taking the time to help me out and share a bit of your knowledge.


#5

Ammusing that his girl has to lecture HIM on steroids and his broken dick, first time Ive heard that one actually.

Anyways, go ahead and jump into a standard PCT, and stretch it at a low dose as long as he needs to feel completely right again.

If he comes off and still feels funny, just go right back on at 20mg/day.

I dont necessarily recommend going on cycle when his system is rebounding. But it probably will not hurt anything assuming he uses an AI on cycle and a proper PCT.

I do however OFFICIALLY RECOMMEND taking at least 4 weeks to normalize his system and get everything ticking correctly first with a standard PCT.

Then if after a week or two after that he feels good to go, hes ready to cycle no problems.

Low dose AI + SERM will fix him very quickly I suspect.

And simply cycling real juice, with an AI, will certainly bring him back up to "speed" very rapidly. As the on cycle AI adequately dosed will control the estrogen rebound and the extra test and DHT will drown out the sex drive issues caused by the low test, low DHT, high estrogen, and progestin activity very easily.

It just might make it a little harder to recover from that cycle when he does come off, as he didn't adequately recover from the spawn shutdown or the HPTA restart before jumping back on. And depending on how he reacts to the progestin crap, MIGHT cause more damage than it already has, impossible to say, just know its MORE risky.

If he insists on cycling (honestly what I would probably do as well), know that its technically the "wrong" choice, but if done with the AI, critical detail right there if you've noticed, he should be dandy as long as he keeps the cycle shorter, say 7-8 weeks.

Just frontload the test, dose the AI, get a little extra nolva for the PCT incase you need to stretch it a few more weeks, and away you go, more or less immediate fix with a slightly higher risk.

The moral of this story is, stay aware from progesterone, and progestin based designers, use the real stuff, and ALWAYS PCT with steroids or anabolics of any kind, even over the counter stuff.

Good luck.


#6

I like you - you have come here with knowledge, interest, intellect and modesty. This is everything anyone here ever asks of a poster, and you have all qualities. I hope you stick around.

I am not too 'up' on PH's but i know a little about how the hormones work in the body - this PH if you look, is called (thanks to you) Estra-4,9-diene-3,17-dione AND 8mg 2a,3a-epithio-17a-methyletioallocholanol - i highlighted the part that stuck out to me.. the Estra.

There are two basic categories of Steroid. There are ones based on Testosterone, ie. Testosterone(!), Boldenone, Drostanolone, Stanazolol, Methandrostenolone.. and those based on (O)estrogens - Trenbolone, Nandrolone, Tetrahydrogestrinone.. Spawn :wink:

Now, these are called Estren based steroids and Androstan. As you can see with this Pro-Hormone, Designer Steroid or whatever the fuck it is, it is Estrogen based somehow (in the chemical name) - i believe that, after looking it up, it is a mix of two PH's - of which at LEAST one is a progestin. A potent progestin.

Progestins will often increase the level of prolactin in the body, this suppresses the HPTA (natural testosterone production) and also suppresses libido seperately. It is suppressive to the HPTA seperately of estrogen/Androgen level - and a SERM will assist, but will NOT fix this issue IMO.

I THINK that he would do very well to buy a prescription-only drug called Cabergoline. It is a dopamine agonist, because dopamine is a direct antagonist to prolactin.

It is dosed at 0.5mg 2x/wk.. and needs to be in tablet form. If you want a cheap, reliable source, PM me.

This is not 100% - but it is what i think is going on, as i said, PH's aren't my strong suite.

His Test cycle will NOT fix this - and he needs to get something to lower his prolactin level (raised prolactin is very stubborn in my experience, and will take months to dissipate if left un-assisted)
He should do as you suggested, recover - take time off - THEN think about cycling.

He should avoid PH's in general if he uses AAS, and he should avoid Nandrolone unless willing to run Cabergoline with it (for the exact same reasons as now).

Good luck :wink:


#7

I fundamentally disagree with this - i appreciate you did vaguely mention this is NOT the right decision, you still made it seem like it IS the best decision! It is contradicted and incorrect. It is not what he should do full stop - and whether you would do it (or i) is beside the point. He is a perfectly normal guy who wants to run a little juice very occasionally (recently had a year off - when did you last have a year off?).

He most definitely should get Caber (as i mentioned in my post that hasn't shown up yet), he may want to run a SERM PCT, but i dont think it will be necessary as his estrogen is likely not elevated still, and his androgen level certainly isn't either. A anti-prolactin will work wonders here IMO.

BUT even if he was to follow the SERM route (alongside Caber i must stress - as it was the progestin in the PH that has likely caused the issues), then he most definitely should not cycle until he has had a period of a few weeks POST PCT to recover and get 'upto speed'.

Otherwise he is compounding one suppression with another - this (as you DID mention, though more in passing than as advice) is going to lead to a significantly harder time after the next cycle, and this poor guy and girl will not only be in the same position as now, but WORSE off.. this is the advice that leads many to panic and hit the TRT button.

OP - please don't allow him to run a Test cycle until he is fully recovered and happy. Suppression of the HPTA is a fact in Steroid use, and libido and drive and energy all drop after a cycle - so we run different drugs to help with the causes of the suppression (high Androgen level, Estrogen and Prolactin most commonly).
Test is also totally suppressive in any decent range for muscle and it is no more fun recovering from that than it is in the situation you are both in now.


#8

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#9

West, Brook - thanks for the detailed recommendations. I have a lot to talk to him about now and an entire arsenal of information courtesy of the two of you. I'm definitely going to push for him taking some time off to normalize before he cycles the Test. I doubt he really wants to be in the same position (or worse) during his recovery from that cycle. It just makes more sense to me to fix this issue first, prior to compounding it with the possibility of another.

I'm not his mom so I can't force him to do anything as he's his own person (as he should be!). All I can do is educate myself as much as I possibly can so I can be that little voice of reason in the back of his head. I just want him to be happy and normal again. His best interest is at the forefront of my mind and my thoughts. True, the sex part of it sucks, but that's menial next to the fact that this shit is making him miserable and THAT'S what's important to me.

Brook - I appreciate for the kind words. I do plan on sticking around =) I've been browsing the boards for a while and I like the style over here.

BBB - point well taken. In all honesty, I didn't even think of my avatar when I posted. My mind was somewhere else. I can completely see how that may be interpreted as ill-mannered. I would never intend disrespect upon him, I kinda like him =)

Thanks for the support and graciousness you've shown me. This was actually my first post, so I'm stoked I was so well received and welcomed. I will keep you fellas posted on what unravels with all this. Hopefully, I can do some quality convincing tonight! Wish me luck!


#10

Hmmm prolactin is a valid consideration here. I was somewhat expecting that he ran the PH at normal doses, which shouldn't lead to too many prolactin problems. I dismissed it thinking the dose probably wasn't high enough to cause this.

And the lack of PCT with the classic high E symptoms seemed the obvious culprit.

But it is entirely possible hes having estrogen AS WELL as prolactin problems still, and its nearly impossible to tell them apart at the moment.

I still think it is unlikely that prolactin is the cause in this case after two weeks but certainly it is worth checking out.

Prolactin is easily fixed as well, but caber is harder and more expensive to acquire, I do believe BBB had the right idea here in recommending full blood work.

Full blood work is the only way to know for sure.

And yes I realize his recovery is going to be impaired by a test cycle at this stage, like you said I did "disclaim" that numerous times. I was merely stating that it is what I would probably do, even if it was the technically wrong course of action.

If hes an experienced steroid user, hes likely to want an immediate fix, we seem to have that kind of personality, so its better to do it right with a proper AI on cycle as to not compound the problems.

Now if hes having prolactin problems, the cycle may simply give his body time to correct itself, and the cycle with an AI will correct the E problems, he may still need caber, but we will need some blood work to determine that, as stated.

If I made it sound like cycling was the right choice, that was my mistake, I was trying to make it clear it was not, but would not likely cause any permanent damage, even if it was more risky.


#11

Please change your avatar. Believe it or not, you are not the only one who is frustrated with the situation. I'm sure his performance in the sack is a huge blow to his confidence, and it will be compounded if he has his buddies from the gym come up to him and tell him all about this thread.


#12

If this helps I have seen the cabergoline and bromocriptine
becoming more available on the "Euro" sites. Shouldn't be
to hard to find. It's getting cheaper too ! The Gynodel is
the one I've seen.


#13

I know the intention was there, but i just felt it read in the wrong way. Never mind. You could be right about the Prolactin level after a low dose (comparatively to say Deca) and are definitely right about bloods, when possible, bloods have to be the best idea for a clear view of the hormone levels at that time.

However, i read that this PH has more progestin activity than anabolic, and even though it is just 2 weeks - it is akin to taking an oral progestin for two weeks. Imagine a progesterone-like dianabol.. this would easily cause issue at 30mg a day for 2 weeks IME.


#14

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#15

Amen BBB! I've been pimping selegeline for a while. In fact, I think you and I had a conversation about this very compound about a year ago.

I'd go with this approach since A.) it's much cheaper, and B.) I agree with Brook's assessment of a prolactin issue.


#16

Hmmm. Perhaps this compound deserves its own thread if its a viable alternative replacement for caber on cycle.

Does it already have a thread that could use a bump or shall we create a new one ?


#17

Oh certainly I agree, Ive seen a write up on this compound before its poorly designed at best. They didn't do much besides find a compound with anabolic activity and place it on the market, really dropped the ball, and so many people seem to be using it over simple good ole superdrol, or whatnot.

I just dont understand how these drugs became so popular, they arent even THAT effective, most other conventional drug based PH's are more potent.

I think the fact that its a cheap, non-methylated, type 1 activity compound... is the attraction for most people, as it makes stacking easy.


#18

What is a good dose for Selegeline?