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Adex: Safe Parameters, Dosage, Time

Hey guys,

As a guy who requires a somewhat higher daily dose than the average guy on this forum with adex, I am curious as to what the full impact with regards to lipid profiles, and hindrance of gains is, when dosing adex at upwards of .5mg/day-1mg/day when on, and in doing so for a 10 to 12 week cycle continuously?

My previous dose during my last 4 weeker of a moderate to mild dose of tpp/mast was at highest .5mg/day with minimal results. I would have increased but didn’t realize my adex was half dosed at the time. Also the .5/day was only for the last few days of the cycle at best, so I can’t say it wouldn’t have worked if I had run it like that from the get go.

Any and all help/insight would be greatly appreciated.

                 ToneBone

bump;

Alrighty then.

No advice here for this subject? Really?

The way I understand adex is to take the minimun dose necessary to keep the estrogen levels in check.

In your case it sounds as though your optimal dose is somewhere in the 1mg EOD where as someone that is less sensitive to estrogen would have a dose more like .25mg EOD.

As to whether or not there are any sides when the higher doses are necessary that is somthing im not too sure on.

[quote]LillGuy001 wrote:
The way I understand adex is to take the minimun dose necessary to keep the estrogen levels in check.
[/quote]

Sounds good IMO. Read up on the symptoms of low estrogen and if it becomes a problem then you can evaluate whether or not to adjust.

I think that KSMAN once wrote that adex has 0 sides other than the effects associated with low estrogen. So in that sense I think it is safe.

PM him to double check, perhaps.

this is also an area of debate because your gyno sensitivity could be from two possible sources

  1. your breast tissue/gland is very sensitive to estrogen (ie. even a small increase in estro leads to gyno)

  2. your body is very good at converting test to estrogen (ie. your armoataze activity is very strong so even a small amount of test leads to large amounts of estrogen)

I don’t know enough about this to say which is going on but if the second issue is the case then adex shouldn’t be an issue at all as long as you aren’t taking estro too low (ie using just enough to keep gyno at bay) because all you are doing is keeping levels normal.

[quote]FuriousGeorge wrote:
this is also an area of debate because your gyno sensitivity could be from two possible sources

  1. your breast tissue/gland is very sensitive to estrogen (ie. even a small increase in estro leads to gyno)

  2. your body is very good at converting test to estrogen (ie. your armoataze activity is very strong so even a small amount of test leads to large amounts of estrogen)

I don’t know enough about this to say which is going on but if the second issue is the case then adex shouldn’t be an issue at all as long as you aren’t taking estro too low (ie using just enough to keep gyno at bay) because all you are doing is keeping levels normal.[/quote]

Thanks Furious, lil guy, and MS.
I will just try the 1mg eod this time, perhaps starting with .5 eod out of the gate and adjust up from there. Funny now that I’m off the nolva and trib product from the last shorty, wow did my face/neck take a good acne ass whoopin! Been about 3-4 days now of that.

           Thanks guys I'm doing some more research on it too and will try to post some more myself on it after. 

I was just wondering how bad it would affect the cholesterol profile after 10 weeks?

                  ToneBone

Do you use trib as part of your PCT? I have some laying around but I’ve never tried it. Maybe I will.

Just for the sake of having another example within the parameter of adex usage in general, I am not at all prone to gyno and my dosage is (I believe) .12 to .15 ED. I go by drops and take 5 drops each day of 1mg/ml strength. The only reason I take it ED is so that I won’t miss doses trying to remember which day is Adex day…it can’t possibly hurt in maintaining consistent blood levels either.

Peace,

Mousse

Does sticking to a certain dosage of Adex really necessary? why can’t you just listen to your body and take more or less as needed. I would start with .5 EOD then increase to 1mg EOD if needed then lower it again and see how u go. I dunno but 1 mg EOD sounds like alot. Do u notice a placebo effect while using Adex. Feels funny sometimes when I take it, weird feelings 20mins later, wonder what that is (placebo or adex working).

Experiment. Take 0.25mg/day for a week, then 0.25 eod for a week. Keep a log of how your body reacts during this two week experiment. If you see results, try a 0.50 dose every day for a week. Compare.

What would be optimal is getting bloodwork done every week.

[quote]kroby wrote:
Experiment. Take 0.25mg/day for a week, then 0.25 eod for a week. Keep a log of how your body reacts during this two week experiment. If you see results, try a 0.50 dose every day for a week. Compare.

What would be optimal is getting bloodwork done every week.[/quote]

Trial and error got me to 5 drops ED. If I drop to 4 I notice the bloat in my face within 48 hours.

[quote]MasterfulStroke wrote:
Do you use trib as part of your PCT? I have some laying around but I’ve never tried it. Maybe I will.[/quote]

       Yeah I used it with the nolva and the LH stim from the two seem to work really well synergistically in my opinion. Kind of depends on the product. If it's just straight trib, make sure it's the German or Bulgarian stuff basicly.

                    TBN

[quote]Mousse wrote:
kroby wrote:
Experiment. Take 0.25mg/day for a week, then 0.25 eod for a week. Keep a log of how your body reacts during this two week experiment. If you see results, try a 0.50 dose every day for a week. Compare.

What would be optimal is getting bloodwork done every week.

Trial and error got me to 5 drops ED. If I drop to 4 I notice the bloat in my face within 48 hours.[/quote]

         Yeah guys, I was trying it at a trial and error method. Basicly here's how it went.

I noticed the hardness coming to the area of the nips.
I began using it a .25/day. Nothing changed, seemed to be getting slowly worse but not bad just continuing. I increased to .5, same pattern. No benefits or difference in how they felt. Went to 1.0/day but by this time it was just about the end of the cycle, and still no difference, maybe just barely a plateu of the sides.

Here’s the catch though. The shit was made with twice the amount of alcohol so it was essentially half dosed. So when I started with .25, that was really .125, and so on. So I really only tapped out at .5 at the end.

I should just plunk down and get a bottle from our dearest supplier of his liquidex I suppose to be completely sure of this. I could use it knowing it’s half dosed and adjust accordingly, but frankly, I’m ready to just get one from you know where.

     I would say with about 90% assurance that it truly is just half dosed though. But I guess what I'll do is get a legit bottle, and do the standard ramping up as we all know to do. Say start with an honest .25 a day. I know I am sensitive to estro, so I don't have any doubt that I would likely need at least this amount each day with my next cycle. Which is to be 400/200 per week test e/tren e.

       And thanks to DB I will use vitB6 thrice a day also to be on the safe side for that possible tren side.

Though between the adex keeping total estro low, and the fairly conservative dose of tren, I really don’t think that will be an issue.

               Thanks guys for all the responses.

                   ToneBone

Adex has a bad reputation when it comes to blood lipids, and some are supposedly turned into grade A a-holes (i.e. bad temper). So use the minimum needed.

[quote]SwD wrote:
Adex has a bad reputation when it comes to blood lipids, and some are supposedly turned into grade A a-holes (i.e. bad temper). So use the minimum needed.

[/quote]

           Well yeah I know of the reputation, that's why I asked the question to see if anyone knows specifically or could clarify a bit more than just the "yeah it's bad for your cholesterol".

             No disrespect SwD. And I didn't know about the temper thing, I'm almost tempted to try aromasin at this point too. It's better on lipids and a few like JellyRoll and a couple other guys like Sapoisin use it and like it a lot.

                    thanks.

ITZ,

Check out Furious’ post. I like his logic… That is, if you don’t overdo it you won’t get the lipid problems etc… because you are simply keeping your e levels within normal range. Sounds good to me.

Actually here’s an article from AR about Asin and using it over adex but in pct rather than on cycle.

So why would we need any other AIs? Well, first of all, estrogen is necessary for healthy joints (3) as well as a healthy immune system (4). So getting rid of 98% of the estrogen in your body for an extended period of time may not be the best of ideas. This may be useful on an extreme cutting cycle, leading up to a bodybuilding contest, or if you are particularly prone to gyno, but certainly can�??t be used safely for extended periods of time without compromising your joints and immune system.

That leaves us with Arimidex, which isn�??t as potent as Letrozole, but at .5mgs/day will still get rid of around half (50%) of the estrogen in your body. Problem solved, right? Use Arimidex on your typical cycles, and if you are very prone to gyno or are getting ready for a contest, use Letro.

But what about Post Cycle Therapy (PCT)?

I think at this point most people are sold on the use of Nolvadex (Tamoxifen Citrate) instead of Clomid for post cycle therapy (PCT), since both compete estrogen at the receptor site, both increase serum test levels, and both drugs may also alter blood lipid profiles favorably (6). But since 20mgs of Tamoxifen is equal to 150mgs of clomid for purposes of testosterone elevation, FSH and LH, but Tamoxifen doesn�??t decrease the LH response to LHRH (6) I think most people agree to Nolvadex�??s superiority for PCT.

Aromasin with Nolvadex

I�??ve always been in favor of using Nolvadex during PCT, along with an AI, because reducing estrogen levels has been positively correlated with an increase in testosterone (7) so in my mind, it�??s be beneficial to increase testosterone by as many mechanisms as possible while trying to recover your endogenous testosterone levels after a cycle. SO which AI do we use? Letro or A-dex? Well, why don�??t we just keep using whichever one we used during the cycle, and add in some Nolvadex? Unfortunately, Nolvadex will significantly reduce the blood plasma levels of both Letrozole as well as Arimidex (8). So if we choose to use one of them with our Nolvadex on PCT, we�??re throwing away a bit of money as the Nolvadex will be reducing their effectiveness.

This, of course, is where Aromasin comes in, at 20-25mgs/day.

Aromasin, at that dose, will raise your testosterone levels by about 60%, and also help out your free to bound testosterone ratio by lowering levels of Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG), by about 20% (12)�?�SHBG is that nasty enzyme that binds to testosterone and renders it useless for building muscle. But what about using it along with Nolvadex for PCT?

Difference Between Type-I and Type-II Aromatase Inhibitors

To understand why Aromasin may be useful in conjunction with Nolvadex while both Letro and A-dex suffer reduced effectiveness, we�??ll need to first understand the differences between a Type-I and Type-II Aromatase Inhibitor. Type I inhibitors (like Aromasin) are actually steroidal compounds, while type II inhibitors (like Letro and A-dex) are non-steroidal drugs. Hence, androgenic side effects are very possible with Type-I AIs, and they should probably be avoided by women. Of course, there are some similarities between the two types of AIs�?�both type I & type II AIs mimic normal substrates (essentially androgens), allowing them to compete with the substrate for access to the binding site on the aromatase enzyme. After this binding, the next step is where things differ greatly for the two different types of AI�??s. In the case of a type-I AI, the noncompetitive inhibitor will bind, and the enzyme initiates a sequence of hydroxylation; this hydroxylation produces an unbreakable covalent bond between the inhibitor and the enzyme protein. Now, enzyme activity is permanently blocked; even if all unattached inhibitor is removed. Aromatase enzyme activity can only be restored by new enzyme synthesis. Now, on the other hand, competitive inhibitors, called type II AI�??s, reversibly bind to the active enzyme site, and one of two things can happen: 1.) either no enzyme activity is triggered or 2.) the enzyme is somehow triggered without effect. The type II inhibitor can now actually disassociate from the binding site, eventually allowing renewed competition between the inhibitor and the substrate for binding to the site. This means that the effectiveness of competitive aromatase inhibitors depends on the relative concentrations and affinities of both the inhibitor and the substrate, while this is not so for noncompetitive inhibitors. Aromasin is a type-I inhibitor, meaning that once it has done its job, and deactivated the aromatase enzyme, we don�??t need it anymore. Letrozole and Arimidex actually need to remain present to continue their effects. This is possibly why Nolvadex does not alter the pharmacokinetics of Aromasin (11).

Conclusion

Before we close the book on Aromasin, it�??s worth noting that you can (and should) still use one of the non-steroidal AIs during your cycle to reduce estrogen, if necessary. When you are ready for PCT, you can then switch over to Aromasin and still experience the full effects of an AI, since there is no cross-over tolerance experienced between steroidal and non-steroidal AIs (9). Since Aromasin is about 65% efficient at suppressing estrogen (10), it�??s certainly a very powerful agent, especially considering you won�??t experience reduced effectiveness because of your concurrent use of Nolvadex or from any sort of tolerance developed by using other AIs on your cycle(9). There is also a decent amount of preclinical data suggesting that Aromasin has a beneficial effect on bone mineral metabolism that is not seen with non-steroidal agents, and it may also have beneficial effects on lipid metabolism that are not found in the non-steroidal Letro and A-dex (9).

Finally, as we�??re going to be using Nolvadex for PCT anyway, and we ought to be using an AI with it for maximum recovery�?�I think Aromasin- considering it�??s compatibility with Nolvadex and beneficial effects on bone mineral content and lipid profile, has finally stopped being the black sheep of AIs and found a home in our cycles.

So guys, not an argument for using it on cycle, but I found this interesting and thought it prudent to post it for folks.
Nice, the synergy one could achieve post cycle on lipids with it, especially if I go with a high end of adex during cycle.

           Hope you agree that it was worth posting.

                   ToneBone

[quote]MasterfulStroke wrote:
ITZ,

Check out Furious’ post. I like his logic… That is, if you don’t overdo it you won’t get the lipid problems etc… because you are simply keeping your e levels within normal range. Sounds good to me.[/quote]

          Yep, I will try to use the minimum, I just want to keep the gyno fairy away best I can. Thank god I didn't come down with a bad case of it. I can't tell anything except for increased hardness of the nip on cycle. Initially there was the hard tissue, but after my nolva protocol it reduced to the point of where I can no longer feel those, and don't get any pain or itchiness either. Just the nip thing, which even that is not overblown. Just enough to make me wary of what "could" happen if not properly controlled.

                      thanks.

[quote]InTheZone wrote:

       And thanks to DB I will use vitB6 thrice a day also to be on the safe side for that possible tren side.

Though between the adex keeping total estro low, and the fairly conservative dose of tren, I really don’t think that will be an issue.

               Thanks guys for all the responses.

                   ToneBone[/quote]

What’s your dosage going to be on the B6, Tone? I’ll probably do what you’re doing with that as my compounds are going to be the same as yours for the most part, I believe.