Addressing Misconceptions of Christianity on PWI

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
Edit: he’s not an idiot, just doesn’t make very compelling points.

[/quote]
For what?[/quote]

Start with the video I posted.[/quote]
I listened to the video and Matt is setting up a straw man(go watch the first video I posted in this thread to find out why).

Secondly I find it very telling how Matt and his buddy are quick to make moral pronouncements when their worldview cannot account for such a thing even though there are such things as clear and distinct moral perceptions.

Thirdly think of why some evils are wrong.

[quote]therajraj wrote:
For me it’s pretty simple. You guys form most of your opinions based on the fact this book is true and is indeed the word of god. You vote on legislation that align with your holy book that effects us all. If you kept your toys at home and didn’t force anyone else to play with them, no one would really care.
[/quote]

Excellent point. I’ve yet to see this addressed in a way that is not a fancy version of “because we are right and you are wrong”.

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

I listened to the video and Matt is setting up a straw man(go watch the first video I posted in this thread to find out why).[/quote]

I’m at work, I’ll watch the video when I’m home.

But before I do, why don’t you explain the strawman so I can look for it.

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

Secondly I find it very telling how Matt and his buddy are quick to make moral pronouncements when their worldview cannot account for such a thing even though there are such things as clear and distinct moral perceptions.

Thirdly think of why some evils are wrong.[/quote]

He explained how he gets his moral perceptions.

“I get my limits from a rational consideration of the consequences of my actions. That’s how I determine what’s moral. I get it from a foundation that says “My actions have an effect on those people around me, and theirs have an effect on me.” And if we’re going to live cooperately and share space, we have to recognize that impact. My freedom to swing my arm ends at their nose. And I have no right to impose my will over somebody elseâ??s will, in that type of scenario. I get them (morals) from an understanding of reality, not an assertion of authority.”

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

I listened to the video and Matt is setting up a straw man(go watch the first video I posted in this thread to find out why).[/quote]

I’m at work, I’ll watch the video when I’m home.

But before I do, why don’t you explain the strawman so I can look for it.

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

Secondly I find it very telling how Matt and his buddy are quick to make moral pronouncements when their worldview cannot account for such a thing even though there are such things as clear and distinct moral perceptions.

Thirdly think of why some evils are wrong.[/quote]

He explained how he gets his moral perceptions.

“I get my limits from a rational consideration of the consequences of my actions. That’s how I determine what’s moral. I get it from a foundation that says “My actions have an effect on those people around me, and theirs have an effect on me.” And if we’re going to live cooperately and share space, we have to recognize that impact. My freedom to swing my arm ends at their nose. And I have no right to impose my will over somebody elseâ??s will, in that type of scenario. I get them (morals) from an understanding of reality, not an assertion of authority.”
[/quote]

From his preferences, in other words. I got my preferences, too. Heck, he doesn’t even think his own preferences have any authority, so I certainly don’t.

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

You atheists are the ones who always bring up the bible. What’s the point if you don’t believe in God. The bible is for theists.[/quote]

This thread is about misconceptions in the Bible and this thread was started by a theist. OP a Christian brought it up to engage non believers on what he perceived to be misconceptions.
[/quote]

Correct this thread. But seriously, why the Bible if you don’t believe in God? That’s kind of mandatory for it to make any sense at all.
I gotta go run for a while though. Important things need to get done.[/quote]

Why the Bible what?
[/quote]
Why do you care about the bible if you don’t believe in God? Why do you want to discuss something you haven’t read and won’t read. It irks me greatly that in this realm, for some unknown reason, folks feel like they can authoritatively speak on things they are truly unfamiliar with. It’s a big collection of scriptures. There’s a lot more to it that, “Hey that Noah story written 4000 years ago sure sounds weird and unlikely, it must not be true.”
Or because we read the bible you think we take everything literally.
It’s a big complicated work. Cherry picking a few versus to your point anybody can do. It’s how you get the freak show to come out. Take shit out of context. Context is everything in the bible. Why the book was written, who the intended audience was, the purpose of the book, the message of the book, the history of the region at that time are all critical to understanding what is going on in a particular situation. It’s not sufficient to go on Atheist.net net, pull a few cherry pick passages and say “whoa! The bible says _________, it must be BAD! Not good.”

World view? Nobody is asking me that, or anybody I have seen so far. It’s been ‘us against them’, all this discussion has been mostly emotive, not reasoned or measured. There has been no sincere interest in out “Word view”. Most of it’s been a set up to get us to say or agree with something that on the surface may look amiss.

Here’s a hint, all of our “world views” are all different and may or may not have anything to do with religion. It’s not good to make absolutely everything a matter of relgion.

Everybody is different. Our methods do not differ much from yours. For me it was lots and lots of philosophical study formal instruction and personal.

This is just a stereotype you dreamed up. I am one for keeping politics and religion separate as do most folks. I don’t want a legislation based on religion. Things like abortion are considered ‘religious issues’ but it’s not. It’s about human life and the right to take it. It’s many times the opposite. “You guys just think it’s wrong because you read that silly book!” Uh, no. I think it’s wrong because I believe killing is wrong and if killing is wrong then abortion is wrongâ?¦Or course that is just a for instance.
I and most religious folks I know have no interest in melding politics and religion. You’re extrapolating the actions of the lunatic fringe, such as the Westboro’s and applying it to all of us. It’s a stereotype and its flat wrong.

Most of the time if people want to mix the two it’s usually about power and greed, not faith. You can use it as a vehicle for evil if you want to. But that’s a misuse and definitely cursed by me.

That makes no sense. Secualar humanism has been the rule of the day society wise. Everybody is interested in TMZ and actors and singers and American Idol and all that horse shit. The Puritan days are gone.
As far as this forum goes, we are talking about religion. How are we supposed to talk about relgion and not talk about it at the same time. There are plenty of threads that don’t discuss it.

Now you’re just smoking crack. “You guys?” where has sex ed been removed or stymied? Proven is a strong word, I would argue that strong family life is a greater indicator of responsible sexual behavior than 4 weeks of sex ed at the local public school by some ugly ass teacher whose forgotten what a dick looks like. Very few people are out to remove it and there is likewise a contingent that tries to expand it’s scope beyond necessity to satisfy their own whims on sexuality too. There two sides to that argument, but it’s not really according to the bible. There’s actually quite a bit of sex in the bible.

No. People are opposed to gay marriage for a variety of reasons, some are religious . My only objection is calling it a ‘marriage’. No matter how you slice it, it’s not the same as a male/ female relationship. You can unite them in many ways, give all the ‘rights’ you want, but it’s not the same as a male /female union and should not be addressed the same. But as far as what gay people do and if they want to be united for life, go nuts. I don’t care.

[/quote]
You guys distort attitudes towards human sexuality in society based on this book.
[/quote]
This said distortion you are accusing “You guys” of doing is actually largely NOT in the bible. There are 3 disapproved sexual practices in the bible: Adultery, homosexual acts, and bestiality. The rest is the result of interpretation.

And the best answer to that question is that if your truly do care what it says, then you should read it. Throwing around random scriptures that others, who have a bone to pick, says means “it’s bad” or this or that is bad, but you don’t really bother to investigate it, you throw it in to our (You guys) face and go “See! Bad, hypocrite!” Is not a demonstration of truly caring what the book says and does not say. I many, many cases I find that no the bible really doesn’t say that.

I think most of your issues revolve around stereotypes you have made about religious people. Perhaps you’ve seen it on TV, or the news media hates us and mocks us, etc. I think most of your “fears” are not grounded in reality though.
Everything you mentioned has the pangs of bigotry, anger and fear. All your concerns are emotive, not rational. They aren’t based in real threats, but examples of the past actions of a very few.
But the one thing the bible did say is that we would be persecuted for our beliefs. That we would be mocked, falsly accussed, made out to be evil, etc. And so it is.

I can’t read anything you wrote unless you fix the quotes.

[quote]therajraj wrote:
I would argue there are several things in the bible that are unreasonable and would harm society if applied.
[/quote]

Like?

[quote]therajraj wrote:
I can’t read anything you wrote unless you fix the quotes.[/quote]

Fixed. Geez, I hate that…You think you’re careful and then it’s a mess.

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

You guys keep sex education down, a proven indicator for fighting teen pregnancy and STDs based on this book[/quote]

And you want to force it into public schools.

No, I prevent the legalization of any marriage besides that of one man and one woman. State recognition of gay marriage is unjust discrimination.

[quote]You guys distort attitudes towards human sexuality in society based on this book.

So a better question is, why would you expect us not to care about what the Bible says? [/quote]

Not our values that’ve doomed this country into a nearly total segegration of have’s and have nots, with different religiosity and adherence to family and social norms. We didn’t demographically doom the very nanny state your distorted sexual attitudes require, via nothing less than your distorted sexual attitudes.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
I can’t read anything you wrote unless you fix the quotes.[/quote]

Fixed. Geez, I hate that…You think you’re careful and then it’s a mess.[/quote]

Your fixing of quotes didn’t stick.

Two very different worldviews enter, one worldview leaves. Oil and water. There’s no understanding to be had, just political wars to be won.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

You guys keep sex education down, a proven indicator for fighting teen pregnancy and STDs based on this book[/quote]

And you want to force it into public schools.

No, I prevent the legalization of any marriage besides that of one man and one woman. State recognition of gay marriage is unjust discrimination.

[quote]You guys distort attitudes towards human sexuality in society based on this book.

So a better question is, why would you expect us not to care about what the Bible says? [/quote]

Not our values that’ve doomed this country into a nearly total segegration of have’s and have nots, with different religiosity and adherence to family and social norms. We didn’t demographically doom the very nanny state your distorted sexual attitudes require, via nothing less than your distorted sexual attitudes.

[/quote]

My point was that you guys make these decisions based on your religious views and that’s why I care about what the Bible says.

End wealth redistribution, employment laws, health care mandates, and public education. There, now we could go our way and you could go yours. Christian neighborhoods, with tax money staying local, funding their own schools and running their own businesses how they see fit. Same for you guys.

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

therajraj, you questions are directed at pat but if I may interject, many of the teachings and propagation of the Bible are not, in fact, Bible truths. Sadly, this has lead to some very passionate, mislead individuals. [/quote]

Does it really make a difference though? These people are claiming their source of morality is the Bible. Based on your interpretation you may see them as mislead, but that’s just your interpretation.

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

The Bible and its true teachings are very reasonable and beneficial to society as a whole, if they are applied.
[/quote]

I would argue there are several things in the bible that are unreasonable and would harm society if applied.
[/quote]

There isn’t very much morally that is open to interpretations. The scriptures are pretty clear on what is acceptable and what isn’t.

I would like to hear some of them if you get a chance. I know you brought up some things from the Hebrew Scriptures, or Old Testament, which involved the Mosaic Law. However, the Mosaic Law has since been fulfilled by Jesus and is no longer.

^^Those still applying the Mosaic Law are incorrect in doing so, though some of the new commandments we have can be seen in the Mosaic Law.

It’s an absolute abomination that these Jehovah’s Witnesses have more of a social and moral testimony than 99% of the people claiming to be Christians on this site. I’ll give you guys credit.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
End wealth redistribution, employment laws, health care mandates, and public education. There, now we could go our way and you could go yours. Christian neighborhoods, with tax money staying local, funding their own schools and running their own businesses how they see fit. Same for you guys. [/quote]

I don’t think you would stop if you got those 4 things. And your really against public education? I guess the only logic I see in that is with no education system the catholic schools would have a monopoly in education and you’d have more children to brainwash.

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

There isn’t very much morally that is open to interpretations. The scriptures are pretty clear on what is acceptable and what isn’t.[/quote]

Ever heard of a church called Westboro Baptist Church? Mormons?

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

I would like to hear some of them if you get a chance. I know you brought up some things from the Hebrew Scriptures, or Old Testament, which involved the Mosaic Law. However, the Mosaic Law has since been fulfilled by Jesus and is no longer.

^^Those still applying the Mosaic Law are incorrect in doing so, though some of the new commandments we have can be seen in the Mosaic Law.[/quote]

But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Matthew 5:28

If everyone believed this, outside of arranged marriage no one would ever get married or have sex.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour - ninth commandment

I would argue that the most moral thing you can do in certain situations is lie.

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
End wealth redistribution, employment laws, health care mandates, and public education. There, now we could go our way and you could go yours. Christian neighborhoods, with tax money staying local, funding their own schools and running their own businesses how they see fit. Same for you guys. [/quote]

I don’t think you would stop if you got those 4 things. And your really against public education? I guess the only logic I see in that is with no education system the catholic schools would have a monopoly in education and you’d have more children to brainwash.[/quote]

Boy, you have little faith in atheists/secularists to manage their lives and civic society.

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

There isn’t very much morally that is open to interpretations. The scriptures are pretty clear on what is acceptable and what isn’t.[/quote]

Ever heard of a church called Westboro Baptist Church? Mormons?

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

I would like to hear some of them if you get a chance. I know you brought up some things from the Hebrew Scriptures, or Old Testament, which involved the Mosaic Law. However, the Mosaic Law has since been fulfilled by Jesus and is no longer.

^^Those still applying the Mosaic Law are incorrect in doing so, though some of the new commandments we have can be seen in the Mosaic Law.[/quote]

But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Matthew 5:28

If everyone believed this, outside of arranged marriage no one would ever get married or have sex.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour - ninth commandment

I would argue that the most moral thing you can do in certain situations is lie.

[/quote]

Matthew 5:28 is a great scripture. I can also appreciate your reasoning.

Try looking at it a different way. What Jesus was showing us is that all our sins we commit start in the heart, or start with a wrong desire.

Notice what it says at James 1:14-15 "But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death.

He is warning us to guard our heart. Adultery is a sin committed when you are a married person. Therefore, you have made a vow to another individual to keep the marriage bed clean. By dwelling on, or keeping the thought of adultery, in one’s heart, and individual is running a risk of letting that desire turn into action if given the right situation.

Let me ask you, is it not loving to your mate to guard your eyes from longing after other women?

Regarding single people, the desire to engage in sex is a natural thing. However, fornication, or sex outside of marriage is strictly prohibited in the Bible. Therefore, the dating process should remain clean of any wrong actions, such as pre-marital sex.

In a very practical way, this scripture offers us another protection for people dating and not yet married. If we keep our sexual desires under control (which is possible for all) we will better be able to see the woman that we are interesting in possibly marrying (as the Bible says is the only reason to date) and our minds will not get clouded up with wrong desires, which we all know can lead to bad outcomes. (This very thing has helped me avoid quite a few very bad choices regarding marriage mates)


Regarding your thought about lying, could you please use a parallel not contained in the Mosaic Law. As stated earlier, the Mosaic Law is no longer.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
End wealth redistribution, employment laws, health care mandates, and public education. There, now we could go our way and you could go yours. Christian neighborhoods, with tax money staying local, funding their own schools and running their own businesses how they see fit. Same for you guys. [/quote]

I don’t think you would stop if you got those 4 things. And your really against public education? I guess the only logic I see in that is with no education system the catholic schools would have a monopoly in education and you’d have more children to brainwash.[/quote]

Boy, you have little faith in atheists/secularists to manage their lives and civic society.
[/quote]

Basically, you want to divide your country.

Well done, very patriotic of you.