T Nation

Adding Win to Current


#1

Im adding win to my curent sycle. Liquid oral. Did 6 weeks dbol, with deca and test. Alternated sustanon with cyp for 1 shot every 4 days.
I came off dbol about 6 weeks ago. Im still running test and deca.
1 i want to lean out some of this extra eight. Im not dieting, and im at about 16% body fat.
2 i want to combat deca dick with the winny and use the winny to help with the test.

Im looking at a conservative 25mg ed winny 6 week cycle.

Is this too conservative? I read alot about 50 mg, but i really want to watch my joints. Oh yeah im on hgh 3 iu 5 days on 2 days off.
I have alot of arm numbness finger and thumb pad numbness and some joint pain. Primarilly wrist and elbow.
I think its from gaining alot of mass fast. Started cycle at about 12% bf AT 185 lbs. now im 208. definate strength gains but i eat anything i want. I dont run as much now eaither to avoid burning calorie ie. eating muscle.

Lastly i will be on test for quite a while and deca for a while. at least 6 more weeks im thinking.

So hopefully i wont get my "cycle" flamed and will just get some advice on the winny. I want to trim up lean out, and not tear up tendons or joints with it.

Thanks


#2

My.

You gained a total of 4% bodyfat in one cycle? According to your numbers given, that is around 11.1lbs of fat gained in one cycle.

You are eating badly, there is never any call to do this for a BB.

Your Test dosing confuses me - you use a propionate ester once every 8 days… thats a waste of ~100mg of the Sust isnt it.
Why would Winstrol counter deca dick? i appreciate it may have some progestagenic effect - but IME it was never enough to offset the increase in Prolactin that comes from deca use.

The Stan may make your existing joint pain worse, especially if it hurts while running deca currently.

You are a prime example of an unhealthy BB - eats shit, loads the drugs and trains heavy, no health aspect to your life other than lifting - and it isnt enough.
I wonder what your lifestyle is like - if you smoke, or drink… if you sniff charlie…

Back to the cycle - if you are suffering deca induced libido loss i would suggest you drop it and add cabergoline. It will work where Stanazolol probably will not.
Replace it with tren or something - an all together better drug IME.

JMO - sorry, but with the 11lbs of fat in 12 weeks coupled with eating anything you like - you have to expect a flame.

Brook


#3

dont mind the flame, it comes from entering the internet warrior, battleground.
My percentages are estimates.
No drugs accept gear. No smoke/drink. I went from running 16 miles a week and eating healthy to eating whatever i like just to get the calories.
I stopped running because i was told i would lose alot of muscle gain.
This is my second full cycle.

To be honest i dont care for the sustanon much i like cyp best. But i have read many places that sustanon is best used every other shot because it has the 4 esters in it.
Prop for the first day etc lasting over the 4 days, then i bump it with cyp or eth.
I dont have deca dick but to be as knowledgable as you apear you havent read at least half a dozen very very knowledgable chemical reports that win is perfect for combating deca dick as well as gyno from deca and anadrol.

Based on that information i read i put that to use.
As far as health i just got my 34 year old physical and im not sure i could have scored any better on all blood test, ekg, heart lung blood pressure. My hdl ldl etc is perfect. A little low but doc said because of my exercise it was ok.

If i can figure out how to post a pic i will.
as i said im guessing at body fat. More likely to my best memory with the hand held electronic body fat machine, i was 10% at 185 im prolly like 12 or 13, i will try it at gym tomorrow and report.

Main thin is i was wearing 30 and 32 pants now im in 34’s and some large and even fitted extra large dont fit in shirts.
The shirts are not fitting because my back is growing crazy. But waist line is bothering me.

Sorry but i have no idea what you look like and my buds at the gym i see every day, and a couple of the biggest guys, eat mcdonalds 3 times a day. I appreciate more than most healthy eating, but im not trying to compete just put on some muscle.

And im wanting to run the win with the cycle up my deca to appopriate level and run 500mg test.

Sooo. Would 25m win ed be good, oral liquid.


#4

Not to mention you are suffering unpleasant side effects from the GH yet plan to continue, instead attributing the problem to weight gain; and it appears you plan on running “at least” 18 weeks total.

Which I won’t comment on, other than to note the fact of it, as I have commented on that more than enough.


#5

Sorry i dont have a test cycle exactly. I dont plan on coming back off test this time. The cycle is just the orals i add and bumping from 250mg a week (for trt) to 500mg a week for cycling a couple times a year, with an oral or two.
So the “at least” isnt exactly a cycle. This is why i was asking for specific advice sense this isnt a normal topic in the forums.

I dont have pct. Accept adex for controlling test nipple or GOD forbid gyno.
Dont knw, im not knowledgable enough to know if i should do pct anyway, or hcg at least, if i never plan on coming off.

Lastly what do you think is attributed to the HGH. The numbness and joint pain? I have had that on previous cycle with no GH. And im only running 3iu dayly. 5 days on.

Thank you.


#6

[quote]albig wrote:

Lastly what do you think is attributed to the HGH. The numbness and joint pain? I have had that on previous cycle with no GH. And im only running 3iu dayly. 5 days on.

Thank you.[/quote]

A pretty solid guess, given that numbness is a common side with GH… and a very, very uncommon one with AAS.


#7

I think you should probably go beyond “chemical reports” and read to gain a better understanding of how, exactly, these chemicals work in your body, the changes that are actually induced thereof, and especially about the efficacy and proper implementation of TRT, if that’s what you plan on doing.

Now, it sounds to me, from what you’ve written here, that you have two expectations from stanozolol, a negative and a positive one. The negative is that it is going to cause or further aggravate existing joint problems. The positive is that it is going to aid in body fat reduction.

I don’t know about the negative one, but I would say that yes, 25mg/day is a very conservative dose that would allow you to assess any problems before they got too bad (probably). You could bump up from there. I think 50mg split into two 25mg dosages a day is the “standard” dosage for winstrol (I’m not advocating this, just stating that it happens to be a popular dosage and schedule for this drug).

On the positive, I think your expectations are misplaced. If you are happy with your current amount of muscle mass, then a simple cleaning up of your diet will almost certainly result in a pretty fast reduction in body fat. The AAS you are taking now, even though they are ostensibly “bulking” drugs, will work just as well to maintain muscle while you cut fat. All winstrol is going to do is make you look better while you are using it. It is NOT going to make you lose fat at any discernibly more rapid rate. The only drug I know of that really does this in an obvious way is, as Brook mentioned, trenbolone, which I believe to be a FAR superior drug to nandrolone, though I have never used the latter.

Bottom line, unless you starve yourself or run daily marathons, you are going to have trouble losing muscle in any case on adequate doses of anabolics.

The whole way these questions are posed however, leads me and, I see, some of the other posters on this site who know a lot more than me (Brook and Bill Roberts) to surmise that you do not really have a firm grasp on how everything here works and fits together; and I don’t mean just the chemicals, either, I mean the big picture and how everything fits together. I would highly urge you to read the stickies at the top of this forum. You will learn a lot.

Good luck.


#8

Please can i have a link to the abstract or article describing how Stanazolol actively reduces elevated prolactin to low/normal levels? I think that may just be tricky to find lover-boy.

I can tell you that it does appear to have anti-progestinagenic activity - IF this is what you are referring to, but if your prolactin is raised causing the ‘deca dick’ (and this IS the primary reason for the issue with Nandrolone) it is too late to expect much in the way of help from the Stanzolol.

I was trying to determine if you believed whether it was the DHT component of the Stan or the anti-progestagenic activity it has that would be beneficial to your situation. I assume you believe it is the latter - but as i have said, it may have assisted in preventing SOME of the progestagenic activity, but IMPE i found that while winstrol an excellent stack for Oxymethelone, it does not seem very effective for that use when stacked with Nandrolone. I believe it’s activity or binding at that receptor is far too high.

Stan would only be of benefit (the more the better IMO - 50mg/wk) if you add an AI and also use a Dopamine Agonist too (which will work wonders) - but as you are SOOO read up on ‘Chemical Reports’ i am sure you realised this already and can fully grasp and understand the reasons behind the use of these drugs and the desired effects they will have on your endocrine system.

Lastly - seeing as you have such a comprehensive and thorough understanding of the chemicals you are using - i wonder why you say that you need to inject sust EOD due to the esters, then inject it LESS frequently interspersed by the use of a long estered test??! lmao!

It honestly makes me laugh when someone is not only mistaken but totally arrogant in their (unfounded) beliefs and are unwilling to make the necessary amendments to have the best cycle possible (an important factor if staying on i might add) or unwilling to even listen to those who may have information to the contrary of their belief - JUST because they didn’t think of it first.

As for BR spotting that you have lower arm and hand pain and are using HGH, that would be enough for me to drop it for a couple of weeks to ‘check’ to see what the issue is. I missed that and i am as certain as i could be (not knowing you from adam) that the GH is the cause.

Good luck…


#9

Agreed with dropping the GH. The last thing one would want to do would be to worsen the situation to where a lasting carpal tunnel syndrome problem developed.

And if the pain remains “despite” having dropped it for a couple of weeks, still I would recommend staying off of it at least until the pain goes away, and next time trying a lower dose. It is possible for the pain to hang on for quite some time. My personal experience with that was rather quickly developing pain from 4 IU/day, immediately discontinuing, and the pain hung on for at least a couple of months. (This was quite a few years ago so I don’t remember the exact duration.) I have known others who had the pain last for quite some time.


#10

Hey Bill,
Not to hijack but it looks like this thread is winding down.
Is there a worthy substitute for HGH that doesn’t cause the pain. Maybe the Igf-1 or GHRP ?


#11

Loverboy = Richguy (in Brookspeak)


#12

[quote]re:
Hey Bill,
Not to hijack but it looks like this thread is winding down.
Is there a worthy substitute for HGH that doesn’t cause the pain. Maybe the Igf-1 or GHRP ?

also re:

Loverboy = Richguy (in Brookspeak)
[/quote]

Thought you had Bill and Brook on your ignore list, wink. I’m pretty sure you’re on theirs, which would explain why they no longer respond to your posts.


#13

i will freely admit brooke, im by definition very ignorant. all i know is what i read which is very widespread and what guys i train with tell me.

ive decided to drop deca all togethor it isnt worth the hypothalamus (spell) shut down. i have a big problem getting adex hcg etc. i can get any gear out there easy but pct chemicalds noone in my area uses so no market realy.

i appreciate the in my face info. i dont want to drop hgh id like to finish the 6 month cycle ill drop to 2 iu 2 on 1 off see if that helps.

lastly ive done some research and i think tren would be good to add and i admitally am misusing sust so im going to 500 mg week cyp.

i would like to try equipose now that i dropped deca and use tren instead of winny. could you advise a decent dosage and give some tips.

ill try find that winny link i read about combating deca dick and let you check it out.

thanks.


#14

Good man -i like a poster that isn’t so sensitive to start crying when i post harshly.

The thing is mate… let me start with the AI (Aromatase Inhibitor), or Anti-Estrogen. These drugs are used to inhibit the enzyme that turns test into estrogen… (you may know this - i dunno). Now if you are cycling 2x a year and never get terrible sides (lots of water or gyno most commonly) from excess estrogen, then it wouldnt be TOO problematic. it wouldn’t be optimal or the safest (raised estrogen has many secondary effects - such as prostate problems when coupled with high androgens).

But seeing as you are looking at using indefinitely - then your estrogen will ALWAYS be hiugh. this is not a good idea… not by a long shot.

You should be aware - i understand your sitiuation only too well. None of my circle used to use any ancillaries at all… a little proviron and tamoxifen maybe… some HCG 2x after the cycle and things.

But after learning about such things i took it upton myself to secure my own suppliers so that i could be the safest and most effctive i could.

With all due respect, there is no excuse for ignorance - whether your friends are or not.

These days, many users i know use Adex during the cycle on my insistence, and i now have suppliers that means i pay apporximately £5 a week for my cycles. Then point is, it pays to learn.

This goes for the HCG
and also the HPTA shutdown - which will occur with any of the AAS you choose…

best,

Brook


#15

ok hopefully someone will still check this out, or i may start new thread.

I have done some research and thanks to a couple very well educated guys here ive gotten a better grasp of what i need to be doing, and looking for at my aga and what i want out of this.

I decided to shut off the deca all togethor for now.

Here is my cycle i want to be starting next week, unless i get some better advice.

Test 500mg week. Now i dont know wether to use cyp, eth, or sust, i have all 3.
Win 30-40mg dayly. Not sure what a good start is dont want to go a whole 50mg daly its first run with win.
Eq (boldenone)300-400mg a week. not sure if i need 400 its first run with eq.
And lastly adding tren to this cycle. But i have no real good idea how to use tren, the bottles i can get are injectable and i have read every day is preered use of tren.
Im a twice a week kinda guy at most i want to shoot every 3 days. So let me know if tren is usable eveyr 3 days or even EOD.

Thanks and please let me know some feedback on this.


#16

Oh and lastly whats the magic password to find PCT in the US?
Is there an prohormone alternative to adex, nolvadex, HcG etc?
Oddly i can get anything aas wise but guys around here have no need or concept for PCT and dont supply it.
Not asking for sources of course because, well im sure thats just wrong here. But a PM with some advice would be appreciated.
Thanks.


#17

YGPM.

Tren Acetate needs to be used daily for the best effect IMO… If you want to use 2x/wk, choose Trenbolone Enanthate. I find under 250mg/wk to give zero sides - but less results. 350mg/wk is a sweet spot for me.

If you choose Sust for your test, i would suggest you inject daily or at the least EOD.
If you choose Enanthate or Cypionate then 2x/wk is fine.

50mg winny is no stretch of the system or the drug… i like 100mg (of late).
If you really dont want to use 50mg/day, try 40.

Eq is very weak and i would opt for 400mg over 300mg. I would not use under 300mg.

The Tren will give similar but improved effects over the winstrol and eq. The winstrol DOES have a few benefits that tren does not and is a different class… i would seriously drop the Eq.

You are unlikely to see any difference in your physique with winstrol or Eq at any dose if you are above 10% IME.

So i would either use Test E and Tren E for 2x/wk injects (and Winstrol orally daily) over 8 weeks or Sust, Tren A and winstrol all taken daily over 6 weeks.

Brook