A little sarcastic with it the flip comment. Meant it as he only does flat bench in a workout and looks solid. a lot of people need to hit multiple angles and multiple sets of bench to grow a chest, or so they think. He knows how to bench to get his chest to grow. most do not. I see a lot of twigs with a much bigger bench than that at my gym.
Sorry markKO. I was feeling extra douchey last night.
[quote]jtamez17 wrote:
I wanted to hear his thoughts on working out. I know what he wants to do, I can read. I want to know why he does that workout specifically. Whats his overall philosphy. If he wants a physique then who cares about his bench total? Sure weights go up, you should get big bigger but I wanted him to explain to me why he does what he does, in the order he does it. I wanted a pic because he keeps asking about weight loss, and brown fat cold therapy, fat burning stacks and if he looks like a beginner I wont recommend an advance program instead of say 5/3/1 or similar.
Your failure to see that is exactly why I asked the question. People dont understand there own workouts. if you can’t explain why you do what you do in your workout in that order then I will say do 5/3/1 or something like. When I train a client you ask why a couple of times and then they finally reveal what they actually want.
So drop the tone playboy. [/quote]
I workout for appearance & health strength has never been a concern of mine.
Adding 40LB to my bench is just a fitness goal like someone wanting to run 100M in under 11 seconds.
[quote]
You are bench pressing 180 pounds for seven reps for three years and have a total of eight years of training according to another thread, and want to bench 40 pounds more and have an advanced five-day split routine, and are likely genetically ordinary and/or are missing something in the way of understanding all of this.
I am in no way trying to be rude. It just takes an ordinary guy to know one (that ordinary guy being me).
PLEASE, stop wasting your damn time, and start all over again with a minimalist program which allows for the quickest progression in all the big lifts and throw in some isolation exercises if you must. Even picking an off-the-shelf linear-progression routine (and I don’t mean powerlifting specific) will have you progressing every workout or week, such as Greyskull, Stronglifts, Starting Strength, Lyle McDonald’s Generic Bulking, Jason Blaha’s Novice, or Candito’s Novice program. All of these are basic and will not have you wasting your time instead of draining your resources with the routine above.
Isolation exercises, “pump”, “innervation”, pre-exhaust, are all great, but not when you are at a modest or light bodyweight and haven’t made progress in years while at a novice strength level.
And of course you can increase any lift with a bodybuilding-specific bro type of split program, but if you want to bench more, do a routine that is geared for benching more.
Again, I don’t know it all, but I strongly believe you are spinning your wheels and are in no position to be on a five-way advanced bro split with your current goals.
I read in your other post you want some program to sculpt inner, outer, mid chest, and are doing quite a bit of supersetting and the like. Here’s a good line from Scott Abel: “You can’t sculpt a pebble.” [/quote]
The 8 years total training are a bit misleading, From age 13-17 and its difficult to make gains with low test levels at those ages.
18-21 I had access to gyms and that Is when I went from 160LB to 205LB.
Im about 198LB now around 11-12%BF 6 2’
Size is my primary goal so I would not sacrifice size elements (the volume which has worked well for me) of my routine to add strength. I am basically asking is there a way to add strength on a such high volume/bodybuilding routines. By doing strength sets first before all the volume.
[quote]jtamez17 wrote:
A little sarcastic with it the flip comment. Meant it as he only does flat bench in a workout and looks solid. a lot of people need to hit multiple angles and multiple sets of bench to grow a chest, or so they think. He knows how to bench to get his chest to grow. most do not. [/quote]
Ah ok. That makes sense
If you workout for appearance then I would just write out a basic progression model and keep doing what you are doing. I really think you might not workout as hard as you think you do. Do you workout by yourself and hold back those last couple of reps? Thats what i did for a long time, I could have done 10 probably but stopped at 6 because I couldnt afford to fail on a rep. But if you are happy with your physique on your current workout then keep on doing what you are doing and its probably dieting, recovery and effort related that’s holding you back.
As far as workout goes I don’t think that’s the best workout set up for strength, IMO. Most people forget about grip work in your bench. Its as vital as upper back work. You have to be able to crunch the bar. When doing the rows to i actually prefer to matching the movement of the bench. So wide grip cable row, bent over row, not so much vertical pulling. I always use the same grip width if i can to. Someone said lats are launching pads for a big bench but lat pulldowns dont improve your bench as much as rows. Notice that improves my ohp but not my bench. There is not as big of a carry over, ive noticed with my athletes. Now I’ve been a softy for Defranco workouts. So I like westside for skinny bastards. I think it offers more of aesthetically pleasing physique than say 5/3/1 or 5x5 that I would usually offer to people. But thats more of preference in physique and its up to you.
Can you get a video of your bench? There is probably something you are not doing correctly in it.
[quote]jtamez17 wrote:
I see a lot of twigs with a much bigger bench than that at my gym.
[/quote]
You see twigs benching a lot more than 360? I find that hard to believe. My numbers are right on the edge of elite for my weight class. I feel like you’re exaggerating a bit.
That being said, your point overall is well taken.
[quote]jtamez17 wrote:
A little sarcastic with it the flip comment. Meant it as he only does flat bench in a workout and looks solid. a lot of people need to hit multiple angles and multiple sets of bench to grow a chest, or so they think. He knows how to bench to get his chest to grow. most do not. I see a lot of twigs with a much bigger bench than that at my gym.
Sorry markKO. I was feeling extra douchey last night.[/quote]
No worries. My bench is lagging way behind my squat and deadlift. I can see different angles helping size more, but then again size isn’t going to hurt strength. Could be also a matter of looking at bench differently, as a max weight exercise than a chest growing one. Technique will play a big part there I think
[quote]Yogi wrote:
[quote]jtamez17 wrote:
presses like a powerlifter, back like a bodybuilders
MarkKO, quit giving people bench advice. You do not bench a lot. You are weak in your bench too. Stop it [/quote]
don’t be a dick. We’re all here to learn from each other. So what if the dude doesn’t have a big bench? As long as he’s improving he can give any advice he wants[/quote]
Thanks. I try to give good advice. In occasion I fail.
I work at a gym that trains quite a bit of athletes. Last 5 years ive seen these really scrawny athletes throw up some ridiculous weight. Some of these guys are straight freaks. They are so freakish athletic they dont even know what to do with. They might jump on the bench and throw up 455 but barely rep 225 (exaggerating but not as much as you might think), look right at me and be like, I just wanted to do it. And you are like what the fuck. We had a trainer I honestly do not know how he did the things he did. If I told you guys you wouldn’t believe me. But basically i got paid to spot athletes and our combine guys for a year. It was a pretty cool gig
[quote]Ecchastang wrote:
Bench every other to every 3rd day. My preference would be to bench every third day, but you can do up to 3 workouts in a 7-9 day period. Follow this and I bet you are there in about 7-8 weeks easily.
Workout 1 4x8 at 70% 1RM
Workout 2 5x6 at 75%
Workout 3 6x4+ at 80% (AMRAP last set only, do 4 on the first 5 sets)
Workout 4 add 5 lbs to workout 1
Workout 5 add 5 lbs to workout 2
Workout 6 add 5 lbs to workout 3
Workout 7 add 5 lbs to workout 4
Workout 8 add 5 lbs to workout 5
Workout 9 add 5 lbs to workout 6
Workout 10 Warm up to a single at about 80-85%, and then do 3x5 at 60% (deload day)
Workout 11 4x4 at 80%
Workout 12 4x3 at 85%
Workout 13 4x2+ at 90% (AMRAP last set only, do 2 on first 3 sets)
Workout 14 add 10 lbs to workout 11
Workout 15 add 10 lbs to workout 12
Workout 16 add 10 lbs to workout 13
Workout 17 add 5 lbs to workout 14
Workout 18 add 5 lbs to workout 15
Workout 19 add 5 lbs to workout 16
Workout 20 Warm up to a single at about 80-85%, and then do 3x5 at 60% (deload day)
Workout 21 Set new max!
At 3 workouts per week, this is 7 weeks, if you add some extra rest days in there it is about 8 weeks.
[/quote]
Thanks for posting this. I wanna try.
Where’d you get it, out of curiosity?
I have some stories that most people wouldn’t believe if i said it, weights, weight loss. Next time we get our combine guys in Ill try to get a video and show you peeps. I know it sounds absurd these athletes sometimes slap science in the face. Sadly i left the job for the most part but still go in from time to time to help out.
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
Example of how stupidly simple my programming is:
Yesterday was bench day. I worked up to a heavy (355) bench single. Then I dropped to 225 for 3 sets of 10. Then I did some rows. That’s it. Bench and rows. I can guarantee that session will serve me better than if I had benched for a few sets, then done incline db’s, then some flys, then some cable crossovers, etc.[/quote]
Legit question: why not bench as much as you did, do the rows, and THEN some incline db’s, flys, and cable work (not factoring time constraints as a reason). I feel that doing some kind of isolation/assistance work is more beneficial than none…just like any kind of work, what matters is -how- you do it.
Your post made me laugh because I also did bench and (light&supersetted) rows yesterday. But after finishing the main “strength” type of bench work I did a couple drops sets, followed by doing some flys, followed by trying some odd incline db press/pullover I saw on a supertraining video, some crossover work with a band just to feel the muscle, and then a light lying french press to 50 reps.
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
Example of how stupidly simple my programming is:
Yesterday was bench day. I worked up to a heavy (355) bench single. Then I dropped to 225 for 3 sets of 10. Then I did some rows. That’s it. Bench and rows. I can guarantee that session will serve me better than if I had benched for a few sets, then done incline db’s, then some flys, then some cable crossovers, etc.[/quote]
this.
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
[quote]TC15 wrote:
I have never trained for strength before but after seeing guys who don’t look like they even lift put up way more weight than me I decided to get my strength up in various lifts. Not just bench specifically.
I train a 4 day split can I just add a strength specific set of bench to my chest day and expect to add strength even though I will be following it with a bunch of isolation/bodybuilding work.
My chest day would go as follows:
Bench Press 5x5 rest 3 minutes in between sets focusing on moving the weight as fast as I can.
Incline DB press 3x6-12 rest 1-2 minutes
Decline DB press 3x6-12 rest 1-2 minutes
Incline Fly + Macine Fly 3x8-15 rest 1-2 minutes
Incline Cable + Decline Cable Fly 3x8-15 rest 1-2 minutes
Same goes for barbell rows, military press, squats
My bench is currently at 180lb for 7 reps and I have not added gone up very little in the past 3 years.[/quote]
You are bench pressing 180 pounds for seven reps for three years and have a total of eight years of training according to another thread, and want to bench 40 pounds more and have an advanced five-day split routine, and are likely genetically ordinary and/or are missing something in the way of understanding all of this.
I am in no way trying to be rude. It just takes an ordinary guy to know one (that ordinary guy being me).
PLEASE, stop wasting your damn time, and start all over again with a minimalist program which allows for the quickest progression in all the big lifts and throw in some isolation exercises if you must. Even picking an off-the-shelf linear-progression routine (and I don’t mean powerlifting specific) will have you progressing every workout or week, such as Greyskull, Stronglifts, Starting Strength, Lyle McDonald’s Generic Bulking, Jason Blaha’s Novice, or Candito’s Novice program. All of these are basic and will not have you wasting your time instead of draining your resources with the routine above.
Isolation exercises, “pump”, “innervation”, pre-exhaust, are all great, but not when you are at a modest or light bodyweight and haven’t made progress in years while at a novice strength level.
And of course you can increase any lift with a bodybuilding-specific bro type of split program, but if you want to bench more, do a routine that is geared for benching more.
Again, I don’t know it all, but I strongly believe you are spinning your wheels and are in no position to be on a five-way advanced bro split with your current goals.
I read in your other post you want some program to sculpt inner, outer, mid chest, and are doing quite a bit of supersetting and the like. Here’s a good line from Scott Abel: “You can’t sculpt a pebble.” [/quote]
You nailed it on so many points here Brick. I think people stray from simple, linear progression models way too early in their lifting careers. I’ve always made my best progress on the big lifts by simply performing the big lifts a lot.
Example of how stupidly simple my programming is:
Yesterday was bench day. I worked up to a heavy (355) bench single. Then I dropped to 225 for 3 sets of 10. Then I did some rows. That’s it. Bench and rows. I can guarantee that session will serve me better than if I had benched for a few sets, then done incline db’s, then some flys, then some cable crossovers, etc.[/quote]
Yup. When I got consistent with this again, and hopefully I can for as long as my body will allow me, I actually had to rewind and went on a 5/3/1 program. I sensed that was not doing the trick in terms of using my muscle and strength memory and minimalized even further and went on an LP program and gains came quicker, like they should if someone screwed around for quite some time.
I really don’t know what some people are thinking.
Like Thib has stated several times in the past few years, the biggest failure rate is seen with bro splits and most ordinary people do far better with a full body or upper-lower split. Then when they get very strong in the bench press, overhead press, chinup, row, squat, and deadlift, it’s time to specialize with isolation exercises, advanced techniques, splits, and so forth.
[quote]TC15 wrote:
Size is my primary goal so I would not sacrifice size elements (the volume which has worked well for me) of my routine to add strength. [/quote]
I can say with near certainty that you are not someone who is going to add 40 pounds to a 180 pound bench press for seven reps and lose or maintain size, but rather will gain size provided you eat a modest amount over maintenance calories.
There are men who have done this, and if it isn’t a form issue, you ain’t one of them. Do you really think you are going to bench 225 for seven reps and your shoulders, triceps, and chest are going to remain looking the same?
Yeah, but that won’t be the most efficient way for someone like you. Hence my lengthy previous post.
Again, not being a dick, and I am not a know-it-all, but I think you’re not getting it.
[quote]Sutebun wrote:
Legit question: why not bench as much as you did, do the rows, and THEN some incline db’s, flys, and cable work (not factoring time constraints as a reason). I feel that doing some kind of isolation/assistance work is more beneficial than none…just like any kind of work, what matters is -how- you do it.
Your post made me laugh because I also did bench and (light&supersetted) rows yesterday. But after finishing the main “strength” type of bench work I did a couple drops sets, followed by doing some flys, followed by trying some odd incline db press/pullover I saw on a supertraining video, some crossover work with a band just to feel the muscle, and then a light lying french press to 50 reps.
[/quote]
Why would one change a program when it is working?
Twigs benching more than 365? Wouldn’t it be more plausible to say very few twigs bench more than this?
I’ve heard it before. The guys who weigh150 but has outrageous strength feats. He lifts a car, tears phone books, bends iron bars, deadlifts 600, and so on. They are unicorns.
Actually, and OP might read here, nearly all men with medium frame/structure who bench 1.5 times bodyweight, squat twice BW, deadlift 2.5 times BW, overhead press 1 x or near bodyweight are not twigs and have pretty good physiques.
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
[quote]Sutebun wrote:
Legit question: why not bench as much as you did, do the rows, and THEN some incline db’s, flys, and cable work (not factoring time constraints as a reason). I feel that doing some kind of isolation/assistance work is more beneficial than none…just like any kind of work, what matters is -how- you do it.
Your post made me laugh because I also did bench and (light&supersetted) rows yesterday. But after finishing the main “strength” type of bench work I did a couple drops sets, followed by doing some flys, followed by trying some odd incline db press/pullover I saw on a supertraining video, some crossover work with a band just to feel the muscle, and then a light lying french press to 50 reps.
[/quote]
Why would one change a program when it is working?[/quote]
To answer the question specifically: to tailor it to the individual, to try/learn new movements, to make the program work better.
What I was trying to point out is just not to hate on assistant movements. I understand Flip’s point about keeping it simplistic and the “do x to get better at x” mentality. But just because the focal point of your program is on the main movements does not mean it has to be exclusive of assistant movements or that including assistant movements means you go so hard on them they detract from your strength for the main lifts.
Easiest example from my own training was with squats. I had never done leg extensions for years. Recently when I was training with tons of volume, I decided to do leg extensions after finishing my squats. Do 20 at a moderately heavy weight, take a plate off and do 20 more, take one more off and do 20 more. I was doing more work but my legs actually felt less sore.
OP,
If adding strength is a VERY secondary goal, and you want to keep your workout routine in place (because it works for your primary goal of mass/aesthetics) you have a few options available but I get the impression that you may just be floating this routine as an example of what you might do to sort of straddle bodybuilding (flyes and cables) and strength training (5x5 on the bench). Possibly you are making this too complicated, I subsist on a diet of cold medicine, twinkies, scotch and ice cream, and my chest workout is similar to Flipcollars description of what he did (bench and rows) and I bench in the mid 400’s as a fat 47 year old man, now of course I look like shit and the flipper has an avatar of him beefcaking in his boxer briefs. My point is that if you are eating correctly and taking care of your conditioning, adding 40 lbs to the bench of a 6’2" 200 lb man should be a lot easier than you think (at least when your max is roughly 215-225 as yours seems to be) and should require a simple workout of heavy compound lifts and adequate rest. That being said, if you are NOT going to change how you lift for whatever reason and If I were going to suggest a simple plan based on what you currently do it would look something like this:
Day 1
Bench- warm-up, 185x5x5x5 (about 85% for 3x5 resting in between for more than 3 minutes per set, it’s Twinkie time)
Followed by
All your normal shit
Once you can knock out 3x5 add 5 lbs and repeat (ex. 190x5x5x5) and so on. In all fairness there are quicker ways to add lbs to your bench but if you want to keep all your normal workout stuff this is probably the simplest way to go. Do it 2-3 x per week since at your size (I am making a lot of assumptions here) and training age this weight really won’t beat you up to badly (assuming no injuries/structural flaws). Lastly really work on your set-up, watch a video or two on bench set-up, staying tight etc. You’d be shocked at how much a good set-up can add to your bench. Good luck.
[quote]craze9 wrote:
[quote]Ecchastang wrote:
Bench every other to every 3rd day. My preference would be to bench every third day, but you can do up to 3 workouts in a 7-9 day period. Follow this and I bet you are there in about 7-8 weeks easily.
Workout 1 4x8 at 70% 1RM
Workout 2 5x6 at 75%
Workout 3 6x4+ at 80% (AMRAP last set only, do 4 on the first 5 sets)
Workout 4 add 5 lbs to workout 1
Workout 5 add 5 lbs to workout 2
Workout 6 add 5 lbs to workout 3
Workout 7 add 5 lbs to workout 4
Workout 8 add 5 lbs to workout 5
Workout 9 add 5 lbs to workout 6
Workout 10 Warm up to a single at about 80-85%, and then do 3x5 at 60% (deload day)
Workout 11 4x4 at 80%
Workout 12 4x3 at 85%
Workout 13 4x2+ at 90% (AMRAP last set only, do 2 on first 3 sets)
Workout 14 add 10 lbs to workout 11
Workout 15 add 10 lbs to workout 12
Workout 16 add 10 lbs to workout 13
Workout 17 add 5 lbs to workout 14
Workout 18 add 5 lbs to workout 15
Workout 19 add 5 lbs to workout 16
Workout 20 Warm up to a single at about 80-85%, and then do 3x5 at 60% (deload day)
Workout 21 Set new max!
At 3 workouts per week, this is 7 weeks, if you add some extra rest days in there it is about 8 weeks.
[/quote]
Thanks for posting this. I wanna try.
Where’d you get it, out of curiosity?[/quote]
I had been toying with a DUP style, trying different things. This is a modifiied version of a Dr. Zourdos program.