T Nation

About to Start TRT with HCG. Dosing/Timing Questions

Hi all.

It will be hard, but I will try to keep the story as short as I can, have a couple of questions. Been having low T symptoms since like, well, forever. Right nutt didn’t come down when I was a kid, today it travels to the groin sometimes but I can always push it back. It was always and still is very small. Left, I had 2 varicoccele surgeries. The left one also atrophied over the course of time. Thanks to God knows what (and Cialis :smirk:) I, since right now, have 2 kids and don’t want any more.

Had almost ALL low T symptoms for a decade. Now I want my sleep, libido, erections, mood, energy etc. back without possible infertility concerns. Read a million things about trt, visited a urologist and here lies the main problem: I live in Germany. Things are not like in USA, can’t get all the tests you want and therapy. Treat the symptoms, not the test results counts for nothing here.
Here s what I could get tested.
TT 3,53 (3.5-11.5 ng/dl)
E2 14 (11-44 ng/l)
SHBG 29 (14-71 nmol/l)
PSA 0.69

Urologist is a moron, he says everything “im Normbereich”. No, not everything is normal, I am 0.03 over the lowest point but I am f-ing 39 yo! I asked about about hcg, he said he doesn’t know anything about that. But back to the topic. If the second TT doesn’t come under 3,5, he could write me prescriptions, but I will have to pay myself. I could get prescriptions for whatever I choose, nebido or enanthate.

I would choose to do enanthate sc, starting with 62.5 mg e3.5d. What would you recommend? Is that ok? Or maybe a total of 100 mg a week at first? I do not think I can afford any further testicular atrophy, so I would start hcg from the get go. How should I start with hcg, this is what I find confusing. 2 x 250 e3.5d along/same time with test? 150, 200 eod? The ppl who do m-w-f whichever dose, inject no hcg on the weekend? Next lab work after starting, I could have whenever I want, but I thought after 6 weeks will be desirable, from what i’ve read.

I’d appreciate any help, a LOT. I am sure I’ll have more questions :smirk:.

Thanks

TRT is going to suppress your SHBG a little and this will affect androgen/estrogen balance, so be prepared to make some changes to your protocol when this happens if symptoms are encountered.

I would start at 50mg twice weekly or 20-25mg EOD. I would hold off on the HCG for now since it makes dialing in on TRT more problematic. If you insist on HCG, inject 100 daily or 250 EOD.

A urologist that doesn’t know anything about HCG, unbelievable!

Sure, that is ok. I would start with 150mg and once a week, you can always increase frequency if you find it necessary. It is not needed for most. Twice a week won’t hurt of course, and you can always adjust the dose as you go.

250IU two or three times a week will be fine.

Right.

Thanks for the reply.

Unfortunately, here are things completely different. TRT is not so researched and/or therapeutically developed like in USA. Finding another doctor will solve nothing. They all prescribe Nebido by default, because that’s what your insurance pay for here. I do not want bad rollercoasters. Normally, if you are sick, Germany is a “good country to be sick in”, you get everything. But TRT, no. Urologist meant he has no idea about HCG need, frequency, dosages on trt. At least he knew why I would want it.

Even though I read a ton, I am certainly not knowledgable. I am not insisting on HCG right away at all cost. I am just scared of bawls ache, bawls being pulled to the body making me look like a 10 year old, even of further atrophy and the right one getting stuck in the groin due to getting even smaller.

I am not expecting a succesful dial in right away. I am ready for dialing in for months, even a year or longer, if that’s gonna lead to a much better life until said life is eventually over :rofl:. Let me ask another way please: is there anything except harder dialing in, that explicitly
speaks against HCG from the start?

Thanks again.

HCG increases estrogen on top of aromatization via TRT, so balancing T/E2 balance can be a challenge for some. Also it’s not normal to have the LH receptors constantly stimulated because naturally LH is pulsatile.

HCG can support adrenal function and if you don’t need adrenal support there may be negitive symptoms as other hormones are thrown out of whack.

I stopped HCG and my balls shrank but theyre still there. Theres a TRT doc here in the states that prescribes 250iu a week, which I was told wouldnt work. So Im about to experiment and see what happens.

Thank for the replies, guys.

“Also it’s not normal to have the LH receptors constantly stimulated because naturally LH is pulsatile”

Isn’t it sort of the case also, with eg 2 x hcg a week, given the half life?
@middleages: yeah, but if MY balls shrink, with my history, and their current size, I have a feeling they will not be there anymore

I guess I will have to think about this decision some more. I have the time, because in this country, there is another major problem. Findig BAC watter, or better said having to make your own and that will take me a few days.

What I found elsewhere and keep finding pretty much everywhere is:

It replaces the lost LH/FSH signal and that is important for several reasons.

  1. It helps to maintain normal testicular size. Yes, it’s a cosmetic benefit, but what guy want’s almond size testicles?
  2. For younger guys it helps maintain testicular function and preserve fertility.
  3. For all guys, it’s important for synthesis of hormones (like DHEA and Pregnenolone), which have various health-promoting functions in the body.
  4. For all guys, it helps to maintain normal ejaculate volume. There’s good histological evidence that the seminal vesicles, which produce about 60% of the ejaculate, need both T and LH to function properly. HCG substitutes for the lost LH while on TRT.
  • I recommend a dose of about 450 IU per week divided into at least 3 doses (e.g., 150 IU M, W, & F). Alternatively inject on an E3D protocol.
  • If you desire to conceive a child while on TRT, consider increasing your dose to 1000 IU per week.

Must say i’m leaning towards starting with it, I just don’t wanna look like I have a schlong only…

Im a huge fan of HCG, but start testosterone only without HCG at least for 4-5 weeks.

As for the frequency - to anybody I would recommend to start with daily injections for both testosterone and HCG if he is willing to. For most people the ideal daily testosterone dose is between 15 and 30mg, for HCG if doing daily 100-150UI should do the job

Ok, thanks.
I’ll try to make it simple: I could/should do what you say. Start without. What I really need is a reassurance that if it hurts and the balls get smaller, it will go surely go back to normal when I introduce HCG? Primary concern, size. Pain, I am used to it one way or another, because of varicocoele for a good part of my life.

T enanthate is approved for the treatment of hypogonadism in Germany (Testosterone Depot).

Don’t go underground and don’t start higher than 100 mg per week.

1 Like

Thanks. I know it’s approved and it would be my choice. This “doctor” of mine has to recommend Nebido, but I could get test E if I insist. “Problem” is, I don’t yet know if I qualify to geit it for free or not. Waiting for second test lab. But doesn’t matter, I would not go underground, I can get it from a Pharmacy.
Are you in Germany? If yeah, where do you find/order BAC watter? Make it yourself?

They can get smaller for a few weeks but then you can easily reactivate them with HCG, this is what I did. Now they are like pre-TRT

I had a bit of a pain on week 2 after starting but nothing special. My HPTA shut down really quickly only for two weeks

im on about 350 a week and it works with minimal sides to maintain size and avoid the ache i get when i dont use.

I’m not saying don’t use HCG, add it later once you dial-in on TRT, this way when introducing HCG you will know if it’s the HCG causing the problems and be able to dial-in easier.

Ok, thanks a lot.

Guys, I have another question.
Just got my second lab test, TTest is even lower. 3,08. They still say no problems with me. Retards. I am very simptomatic, being just 0.08 over the lower limit @ just 39 yo with terrible genital history, there are problems and then some. I get nothing for free via health insurance but this doctor will “treat” me. I can always get private prescriptions, have to pay myself, and I already bought the stuff today. Rejected gels, Nebido and got Test E and hcg.
Back to the “where I live problem”. Nothing in Germany comes in vials. Test E in 250 mg ampules, hcg in 1500 or 5000iu vials with 1 ml ampule saline solution. Bac water is a major pita. Can’t buy it. Ordering from another country is another pita. Can get stopped and taken away at customs, delivery time is usualy weeks. I don’t wanna have these possible concerns in the future.
I like the idea of mixing 1500iu with 1,5 ml NaCl. Makes things and math easy. The queastion I have has been beaten to death online, still with no consensus. So I am not gonna really ask the question : can/may hcg be mixed with normal saline, filled in 6 syringes and then FROZEN, to use say for 3 weeks at 2 x 250 a week for example. Some will say yes, others will say no, as everywhere.

Instead I hope there are people here that did it, can confirm, from own experience, that hcg doesn’t lose potency when frozen and thawed just once over a 3 or more weeks period. Or deny the same.

Thanks in advance

Anyone?

The bac water allows it to stay longer without shit growing. You’re going to regret starting with HCG. What if you feel like crap? How do you know if it’s your T dose or the HCG? You’re about to make the same mistake that many folks make. Start with testosterone only. Once you have been on it for a while and got to the right dosage that has you symptom free and not feeling like shit if you then want to expirement with HCG go for it. There’s a reason that a majority of folks on here aren’t using it (and many started with it). It can make you feel like shit.

Don’t read into the balls disappearing and aching bullshit. Will they shrink 1/8 of the current size? Maybe. Do you care when you’re feeling the best you ever have in your life and have a rock hard dick ready to fuck 24/7? Probably not.

Perhaps I should have specified. I already said I am leaning towards starting without hcg. In case my balls hurt or get much smaller if and when I start hcg, or if anything happens that tells me I may need to inject hcg, I would like to have everything not just on hand, but ready to use. Just like before 1st aas cycle. BAC water, I know what it does, I know what it’s for. But it is not really an option here.

My question is actually in regards to the possible future. Your experiences with 1 time freezing and thawing preloaded hcg syringes, no matter how many injections, ammount in hcg units for about 3 weeks. I lived with my symptoms for more than a decade, I can wait a little longer. If I get positive answers regarding hcg/saline/freezing/thawing, I am starting just test tomorow morning.

Thanks