This has recently taken over the theocracy forum, so I thought I would start a new thread where we could discuss this topic ad nauseum. I was reading Lou Schuler’s blog this morning and found this gem… Curious how all the bible-thumpers can justify the fact that abortions have increased under such a “moral” president who is opposed to it. Oh, let me guess… Its Clinton’s fault.
The data don’t come to us from a “told-you-so” liberal or feminist group; they were crunched by Glen Harold Stassen, professor of Christian ethics at Fuller Theological Seminary and son of the late, frequent Republican presidential candidate.
The bloody truth:
"When President Bush took office in 2001, abortions were at a 24-year low. There’d been a 17.4 percent decrease during the 1990s alone. With a pro-life president, it could be assumed, abortions in the United States would continue their downward trend.
"Just the opposite has occurred. The decade of decrease seems to have been reversed. In three states that posted multiyear statistics through 2003 (Kentucky, Michigan and Pennsylvania), abortion rates increased. Stassen analyzed statistics in 13 other states that had data from 1999 through 2002. Eight states saw an increase in abortion rates.
“Why is this happening? Stassen concludes that unemployment and the number of women who do not have a reliable mate (men who are jobless usually do not marry) contribute to the increase in abortions. Health care is an important contributing factor. Stassen writes that ‘women worry more about health care for themselves and their children. Since 5.2 million more people have no health insurance now than before this presidency – with women of childbearing age overrepresented in those 5.2 million – abortion increases.’”
Not that factual information wins many arguments in America these days …
How much money do you think the federal government would have to give these women to get them not to kill their kid?
Of the women I know who have had abortions, not a single one did it for economic reasons. Every one of them killed their kid because they either didn’t want to give up their hoochie lifestyle or they just didn’t like the guy they created a new life with.
Chen I dont know if there is any history to the discussion as I normally stick the the strength forum but I didnt see anything in the original post about whether abortion should be legal or not, just that it went up under Bush.
[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
Does personal responsibity come in here anywhere Roy? You know like- I can’t afford a child, so I won’t engage in activity that will produce a child.
Why does it have to be abortion that cleans up the mess irresponsible people create?[/quote]
Like I said in my previous post, I dont get what this has to do with the first post? are you arguing that people are less responsible due to bush’s leadership?
[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
Does personal responsibity come in here anywhere Roy? You know like- I can’t afford a child, so I won’t engage in activity that will produce a child.
Why does it have to be abortion that cleans up the mess irresponsible people create?[/quote]
The age of black and white ended a long time ago. Heck, we’re even past gray. Now we’re into the era of super high definition full contrast colour thats so thin you can’t believe! Oh wait… I mean the world isn’t that clear cut now is it… you try telling someone with 5000 tons of vitamin-T not to do anything, and still keep them around the opposite sex, pressure from people and giving them the opportunity to do it in private etc. Ain’t gonna happen, mate
I know this would never fly with most but I would like to see every non-married female whos body has begun menstrating be put on mandatory depro vera shots…
the abortion rate would plummet to near zero if this happened.
ALSO…
people can only collect wellfare if they agree to be sterilized…we don’t need wellfare babies creating more wellfare babies.
draconian measures sure…but perhaps necessary in this day and age.
Mr. Chen
your right no one should have sex that can’t take full responsibility for a child. wait that wont work, how about everyone uses birth control, wait no lets not continue to fund programs that help to supply birth control. OK so someone actually gets their shiot together and is on birth control, say they get pregnant with the baby of someone they actuall do love but they are unable to have a child not because of many reasons, they should have to have this child and give it a shitty life because the birth control failed or are you saying no pregnancy should be ended. I want to see some of these people have to deal with a situation that forces them into this choice. Everyone says one thing but I know a few people who change their minds when they are forced into a horrible situation. sory got a bit angry there just my $.02 BiggieBen
The age of black and white ended a long time ago. Heck, we’re even past gray. Now we’re into the era of super high definition full contrast colour thats so thin you can’t believe! Oh wait… I mean the world isn’t that clear cut now is it… you try telling someone with 5000 tons of vitamin-T not to do anything, and still keep them around the opposite sex, pressure from people and giving them the opportunity to do it in private etc. Ain’t gonna happen, mate :)[/quote]
No shit. If I’m all 'roided up and get so horny that I go out and rape a bitch, it’s not my fault. I couldn’t help it that no one wanted to fuck my acne covered self. Who are you to judge me?
Chris Aus- It seems to me that the main point of the article is that the problem of abortion has to do with economics, and therefore beyond the individual to control. I disagree with that.
AKA- The answer to your question is birth control that prevents conception. I don’t think abortion should be a form of after-the-deed-is-done birth control, which I think is what in essence the pro-abort people are arguing for, although they don’t say it that way.
[quote]biggieben wrote:
Mr. Chen
your right no one should have sex that can’t take full responsibility for a child. wait that wont work, how about everyone uses birth control, wait no lets not continue to fund programs that help to supply birth control. OK so someone actually gets their shiot together and is on birth control, say they get pregnant with the baby of someone they actuall do love but they are unable to have a child not because of many reasons, they should have to have this child and give it a shitty life because the birth control failed or are you saying no pregnancy should be ended. I want to see some of these people have to deal with a situation that forces them into this choice. Everyone says one thing but I know a few people who change their minds when they are forced into a horrible situation. sory got a bit angry there just my $.02 BiggieBen [/quote]
I knocked up the woman who is now my wife (of 5 years) while I was half way through law school. I quit school and spent almost two years telemarketing credit cards to support us (she had a 4 year old from a previous marriage at the time). The four of us lived in a one bedroom apartment, my step-daughter sleeping in the living room, my newborn in the dining room . My car was repossed twice. We ate more red beans and cornbread than anyone could ever imagine. I then started teaching to put her through school. She graduated as an RN in May. Now, 5 years down the road I’m back in school. Of course I would rather have been a lawyer 4 years ago, but shit happens. I made the choice to have sex. Killing my child to keep me in law school never crossed my mind. Everynight I check on my kids on my way to bed. Those couple of minutes each night repay all of the sacrifices I’ve made a trillion times over. It’s always easy to rationalize being a pussy, but I’ll never understand how someone could rationalize killing their own child.
The age of black and white ended a long time ago. Heck, we’re even past gray. Now we’re into the era of super high definition full contrast colour thats so thin you can’t believe! Oh wait… I mean the world isn’t that clear cut now is it… you try telling someone with 5000 tons of vitamin-T not to do anything, and still keep them around the opposite sex, pressure from people and giving them the opportunity to do it in private etc. Ain’t gonna happen, mate :)[/quote]
AKA
Based on the fact that abortions are the rare end to a pregnancy and even rarer end to sexual activity, I’d say it does happen.
Roy Batty
I read that Strassen is “trained in statistical analysis” but of 13 of the states he looked at 8 saw an increase from 1999-2003 and if it’s 8 states that are like the three mentioned (only containing 2 of the top 25 most populouse american cities what were the other 5? N/S Dakota, Montana, Wyoming and Nevada) that’s far from representative of the nation. I’m not assuming motive, but to look at 13 of 50 states and then to clip 5 of those is not a very objective statistical analysis. Also, the increase was from 1999-2003 (The article doesn’t say)? If so, the increase started under “someone else’s” campaign (jab jab).
[quote]doogie wrote:
biggieben wrote:
I want to see some of these people have to deal with a situation that forces them into this choice. Everyone says one thing but I know a few people who change their minds when they are forced into a horrible situation. sory got a bit angry there just my $.02 BiggieBen
I knocked up the woman who is now my wife (of 5 years) while I was half way through law school. I quit school and spent almost two years telemarketing credit cards to support us (she had a 4 year old from a previous marriage at the time). The four of us lived in a one bedroom apartment, my step-daughter sleeping in the living room, my newborn in the dining room . My car was repossed twice. We ate more red beans and cornbread than anyone could ever imagine. I then started teaching to put her through school. She graduated as an RN in May. Now, 5 years down the road I’m back in school. Of course I would rather have been a lawyer 4 years ago, but shit happens. I made the choice to have sex. Killing my child to keep me in law school never crossed my mind. Everynight I check on my kids on my way to bed. Those couple of minutes each night repay all of the sacrifices I’ve made a trillion times over. It’s always easy to rationalize being a pussy, but I’ll never understand how someone could rationalize killing their own child.[/quote]
I knocked up the woman who is now my wife (of 5 years) while I was half way through law school. I quit school and spent almost two years telemarketing credit cards to support us (she had a 4 year old from a previous marriage at the time). [/quote]
Ok Doogie, you were half way through law school seeing the woman who you knocked up, as you put it, who became your wife. As you first state you were “half way through law school” which in my book would mean you have already recieved a degree, correct me if I am wrong. You are with a woman with a child already, to me that would seem like you are ready for a family. But maybe you weren’t and this whole child thing is a shock; you put yourself in a position where there was already a child, you either cared for this woman a great deal or didn’t give a shit about her or the child. You can just fall back on your college degree to survive. There are times however when the best planning and good intentions are not enough. There are a number of people who would be unable to take care of a child in the way you have. People stuggling to find a way to pay for their first degree for instance or anyone living under or around the poverty line. Should these people be forced to have a child in a shitty situation because you think it would make them a “pussy”. Most poeple who go in to get an abortion have gone through an immense amount of thought, thankfully I have not been forced into this decision. There are a few women that after having learned who they really are am damn thankful I used protection with for both STD and birth control reasons because there is no way that I could bring a child into this world with them.
Maybe you want to think having an abortion or aborting a child would make one a pussy. You might want to stop and think most people in a situation where abortion is a valid option don’t already have a degree. They may be in school, they may not. But the way you tell your story seems to me you are teling it as if your someone who struggled and made an achievement, if it was an easy time then your story wouldn’t mean shit. I am very glad you love your children and they make everything worthwhile, I am sure you do your best everyday for them. YOU however have to realize you were in a position to be able to take care of them, you had a degree, she already had a child. I am guessing you loved each other. Most people are not in the same situation, they are not older( I am guessing since you were halfway through law school that you were at least about 24) they are young people who have problems figuring out who they are, let alone how they can teach someone else how to be somebody.
[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
AKA- The answer to your question is birth control that prevents conception. I don’t think abortion should be a form of after-the-deed-is-done birth control, which I think is what in essence the pro-abort people are arguing for, although they don’t say it that way.[/quote]
Last I saw the cost of decent birth control was half a welfare check. Okay, maybe an overstatement and true, I last checked that about a year ago investigating implanon, but still the lack of goverment pharmaceutical substidies afaik has limited access.
Not to mention the amount of pregnancies from first timers and how, due to the continual sexual repression of most parents, it would seem like going through flaming doors covered in thick propane to walk into a doctor and ask for a prescription.
But hey, I’m not american, so what do I know about people.
[quote]lucasa wrote:
AKA
Based on the fact that abortions are the rare end to a pregnancy and even rarer end to sexual activity, I’d say it does happen.
[/quote]
A rare end to a rare result? 27.3 Women per 1000 isn’t a very low rate IMHO (source: Abortions and Abortion Rates)
Not to mention a 33% abortion:pregnancy ratio for those between 15 and 19, at at rate of 84 per 1000 15-19 year olds (source: Viasat Internet Service Providers Near Me)
[quote]doogie wrote:
Killing my child to keep me in law school never crossed my mind. Everynight I check on my kids on my way to bed. Those couple of minutes each night repay all of the sacrifices I’ve made a trillion times over. It’s always easy to rationalize being a pussy, but I’ll never understand how someone could rationalize killing their own child.[/quote]
When your all of 14 or so, or the majority of people that hit your scenario, it’s not quite so clear cut. Even you admitted to considering abortion. Until you have that kid, you don’t see it as another person dependant on you; it’s something you can’t see and therefor is something “that shouldn’t be there”.
Yeah, that makes an unborn sound like a paracyte, this is not my intention; most people who have abortions can’t see it as murder. True; this creates many problems later in life when they -do- have a child, but most can see that if you end up giving your child osteoparosis, lepracy and rickets from the nutrition of that ally mcbeal chick when she’s having a fat freak (eg if she weighed over 30kg), maybe it’s just worth thinking that the means justify the ends.
No, I’m not sayig you did the wrong thing; having balls to deal with a scenario makes a T-Man. But not all T-men are created equal, and neither are T-Vixens, and many will see sacrifice of one for the good of many a payoff too good to refuse.
[quote]Chris Aus wrote:
Chen I dont know if there is any history to the discussion as I normally stick the the strength forum but I didnt see anything in the original post about whether abortion should be legal or not, just that it went up under Bush.
[/quote]
This is true. But since when did a topic last more then 2 posts?
