Abortion Debate?

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
MrRezister wrote:
If it is human, then it should be subject to the laws of humans, which say that we cannot KILL IT.

Yeah, but aren’t these laws based on religion. The religious who are against abortion use religious laws to say killing is wrong.

If you go by the the law of the country, killing a person is wrong, but abortion is ok.

So, to debate it, you do need to involve religion.

What?

Are you trying to say that murder is a religious issue?

I don’t think the right to life is a religious issue, especially if the child is born alive.

Is this where the abortion debate is headed?

Are you so fucking scared of religion that you would rather accept murder than accept giving a living child the right to fucking breathe just to prove how anti-religious you are?

WHAT THE FUCK?

I am not saying murder is a religious issue. If anything religion supports giving a living child the right to breath. The other poster said religion does not play a role in the abortion debate. I said that it plays a big role.

[/quote]

The question of allowing a newborn baby to live immediately after birth, whether wanted or not, has nothing to do with religion.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
MrRezister wrote:
If it is human, then it should be subject to the laws of humans, which say that we cannot KILL IT.

Yeah, but aren’t these laws based on religion. The religious who are against abortion use religious laws to say killing is wrong.

If you go by the the law of the country, killing a person is wrong, but abortion is ok.

So, to debate it, you do need to involve religion.

What?

Are you trying to say that murder is a religious issue?

I don’t think the right to life is a religious issue, especially if the child is born alive.

Is this where the abortion debate is headed?

Are you so fucking scared of religion that you would rather accept murder than accept giving a living child the right to fucking breathe just to prove how anti-religious you are?

WHAT THE FUCK?

I am not saying murder is a religious issue. If anything religion supports giving a living child the right to breath. The other poster said religion does not play a role in the abortion debate. I said that it plays a big role.

The question of allowing a newborn baby to live immediately after birth, whether wanted or not, has nothing to do with religion.
[/quote]

You couldn’t be speaking of how Obama voted with whatever bill it was to let the unwanted newborn, the result of a failed abortion to die rather than receive medical attention.

[quote]makkun wrote:
Just wondering - when in case of an abortion the father should have a right to know and be part of the decision, as is implied here - should he also have a right to decide for an abortion against the mother’s will? And what how should those rights be balanced?[/quote]

If the mother chooses to take the pregnancy to term without consulting the father, then I believe asking for child support is out of the question.

WRT paternity, make it compulsory for test to be done at birth. All that is required from the baby is a swab of saliva. Completely non-invasive. Make it compulsory so there is no issues surrounding bringing up the topic at all.

Rape victims make their own choice, and the “father” should still have to pay.

Sperm donorship shouldn’t be grounds for anything. If the woman wants the baby, fine - but no child support (which has happened at least once). On that same train of thought, the father has already donated sperm. Once the woman is inseminated, he has no more say.

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
And they can abort the husbands baby without his knowledge. Repulsive.
[/quote]

If the women you stuck your dick in can’t tell you she’s pregnant or afraid or needs your help then you stuck your dick were it didnt belong.

[quote]Makavali wrote:
[…]If the mother chooses to take the pregnancy to term without consulting the father, then I believe asking for child support is out of the question.[/quote]

I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding wrt child support: it is a right of the child against its parents, not of the mother (at least in German civil law - but I’m relatively sure this would hold for other civil law systems). It is controlled by carer on behalf of the child, which is most often the mother - but it’s a right of the child, not any of the parents’.

Under German law (if I remember my family classes correctly), which I think handles this quite well, no parent can wave away this right of the child. And - I fully agree with this model, as the relationship of the parents should have no adverse effect on the children, however it develops. With everyone here rooting for the rights of (unborn and born) children, this is a useful stance.

Fair enough. It may raise the divorce rate (I have read statistics which indicate that about 10% of children are cuckolds), but I think that’s fair enough.

Acquiring a rape conviction within the time frame and stresses of a pregnancy is pretty much impossible. So that means the mother would have to handle that, the pregnancy and the aftermath of a rape all in one go - having to wait for a decision if she can a) not inform the 'father, b) have an abortion. Also, when the case fails even if there was a rape, you’ll have a lifelong bond between mother and rapist. That’s a grueling thought. While your suggestion sounds fair in principle, I don’t think it’s workable.

I agree that in the case of sperm donorship the donor should not be made responsible - that would require a legal agreement to transfer fathership to a relevant other (a husband, a same sex partner, a grandparent, etc.), with all legal entitlements a child has to that person. This would have to be a life-long binding contract. Tricky, but I guess doable.

Your last two sentences pretty much sum up my view on this: the father, any father (in whatever type of relationship), has no right to know or to take part in the decision with regards to continuing or terminating the pregnancy. And they shouldn’t. They are only involved, but the mother and the child are committed.

It may feel sucky for the fathers, but I don’t see any other fair and practical solution that really covers the protection of the child (and the mother).

Makkun

[quote]makkun wrote:
Once the woman is inseminated, he has no more say.

Your last two sentences pretty much sum up my view on this: the father, any father (in whatever type of relationship), has no right to know or to take part in the decision with regards to continuing or terminating the pregnancy.

And they shouldn’t. They are only involved, but the mother and the child are committed.[/quote]

If we are still talking exclusively about donors, then we are on the same page. However, a married couple or even a de-facto relationship should not ignore the right of the father to have a say.

While I do support abortion, I do NOT support waiving the rights of either the mother or father to decide whether the pregnancy is to be carried to term.

[quote]Spry wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
And they can abort the husbands baby without his knowledge. Repulsive.

If the women you stuck your dick in can’t tell you she’s pregnant or afraid or needs your help then you stuck your dick were it didnt belong.
[/quote]

It was my wife at the time you piece of shit. We also have 2 kids together. She faked a miscarriage. Then, after I filed for divorce, she decided to put it in my face that she aborted.

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
She faked a miscarriage.[/quote]

WTF

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
Spry wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
And they can abort the husbands baby without his knowledge. Repulsive.

If the women you stuck your dick in can’t tell you she’s pregnant or afraid or needs your help then you stuck your dick were it didnt belong.

It was my wife at the time you piece of shit. We also have 2 kids together. She faked a miscarriage. Then, after I filed for divorce, she decided to put it in my face that she aborted.[/quote]

I understand your pain and anger about this.

However, I’m not seeing how a father can truly have a say in something like that, and it’s absolutely not the government’s job to dictate things like this.

If a woman marries someone who is a hardcore anti-abortion person, where does that leave the woman? If she truly does not want a kid, you cannot make her have it.

The law shouldn’t be able to either.

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
[…]It was my wife at the time you piece of shit. We also have 2 kids together. She faked a miscarriage. Then, after I filed for divorce, she decided to put it in my face that she aborted.[/quote]

I’m sorry to read that. That is under any circumstances extremely cruel.

Makkun

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

However, I’m not seeing how a father can truly have a say in something like that.[/quote]

Wow…Ok, I guess we have our own opinions. See my next comment.

Women know who they marry, and the baby is BOTH mother and fathers. Your arguement can be viewed like…the father is not really the father and has NO RIGHTS, therefore not his child??? There is BIRTH CONTROL if the woman does not want to get pregnant.

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
She faked a miscarriage.

WTF[/quote]

Precisely. It was all I could do to not hit her.

[quote]makkun wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
[…]It was my wife at the time you piece of shit. We also have 2 kids together. She faked a miscarriage. Then, after I filed for divorce, she decided to put it in my face that she aborted.

I’m sorry to read that. That is under any circumstances extremely cruel.

Makkun[/quote]

Now you understand why we are not together…among other issues!

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
Spry wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
And they can abort the husbands baby without his knowledge. Repulsive.

If the women you stuck your dick in can’t tell you she’s pregnant or afraid or needs your help then you stuck your dick were it didnt belong.

It was my wife at the time you piece of shit. We also have 2 kids together. She faked a miscarriage. Then, after I filed for divorce, she decided to put it in my face that she aborted.

I understand your pain and anger about this.

However, I’m not seeing how a father can truly have a say in something like that, and it’s absolutely not the government’s job to dictate things like this.

If a woman marries someone who is a hardcore anti-abortion person, where does that leave the woman? If she truly does not want a kid, you cannot make her have it.

The law shouldn’t be able to either.
[/quote]

If the father is responsible after birth why should he not have a say before? The baby is also his to raise, is it not? And if he wants his child, why shouldn’t he have the right to raise him/her?

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

However, I’m not seeing how a father can truly have a say in something like that.

Wow…Ok, I guess we have our own opinions. See my next comment.

If a woman marries someone who is a hardcore anti-abortion person, where does that leave the woman? If she truly does not want a kid, you cannot make her have it.

The law shouldn’t be able to either.

Women know who they marry, and the baby is BOTH mother and fathers. Your arguement can be viewed like…the father is not really the father and has NO RIGHTS, therefore not his child??? There is BIRTH CONTROL if the woman does not want to get pregnant.

[/quote]

It’s an interesting question that I never thought of previously.

Maybe if they’re married it’s different… but still, it’s the woman’s body, and she’s got to carry it around for 9 months and go through child birth and all that.

Should she have to notify you? That’s an issue. Maybe. It would certainly be the right thing to do, and depending on legal precedents in each state, be the reasonable thing.

Should you be able to stop her? My answer is still no.

[quote]bald eagle wrote:

If the father is responsible after birth why should he not have a say before? The baby is also his to raise, is it not? And if he wants his child, why shouldn’t he have the right to raise him/her?[/quote]

Because it’s inside the woman’s body.

Not to mention, you can’t do a paternity test when the kid is still in there, so for all intensive purposes, you have no idea who’s kid that is, and you can’t tell.

People would find a way around it… get someone else to come with them, vouch as the father, do what they must. It’s the same reason abortion shouldn’t be outlawed- it’s going to go on all the time anyway. It should be safe for those that want it.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Because it’s inside the woman’s body.[/quote]

And it will move the the inside the mans wallet. Don’t downplay the role of the father.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
bald eagle wrote:

If the father is responsible after birth why should he not have a say before? The baby is also his to raise, is it not? And if he wants his child, why shouldn’t he have the right to raise him/her?

Because it’s inside the woman’s body.

Not to mention, you can’t do a paternity test when the kid is still in there, so for all intensive purposes, you have no idea who’s kid that is, and you can’t tell.

People would find a way around it… get someone else to come with them, vouch as the father, do what they must. It’s the same reason abortion shouldn’t be outlawed- it’s going to go on all the time anyway. It should be safe for those that want it.[/quote]

I would have to research and see if it is possible to determine paternity in the womb. You seem sure - do you know this for sure?

It can’t be that easy to just cut the father out. And you definitely should not be able to emilminate the father from the equation when it comes to married couples.

[quote]Makavali wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Because it’s inside the woman’s body.

And it will move the the inside the mans wallet. Don’t downplay the role of the father.[/quote]

Listen, not for nothin, but the woman “gets stuck” with the child far more than the father does.

There’s a reason that “deadbeat mom” isn’t in the lexicon. The woman will always have precedence in this matter, possibly to an unfair extent, but they will. Just like custody battles.

[quote]bald eagle wrote:

I would have to research and see if it is possible to determine paternity in the womb. You seem sure - do you know this for sure?

It can’t be that easy to just cut the father out. And you definitely should not be able to emilminate the father from the equation when it comes to married couples.
[/quote]

Whoops. My mistake. They can do them. I didn’t know that.

Of course, when you’re a married couple, are you going to have the father take a paternity test… or the mother?

I don’t know. Until the child is out, reproductive rights have to stay with the mother. Yes, it’s your sperm that did it, but the damn thing grows for nine months inside the mother. That’s just not equal in importance.

I’d like to hear from some women on this. Too bad ugly ass Rainjack scared them all away.