T Nation

A T-Nation Divided

Allow myself to introduce… myself.

My name is Alex, I am a T-Man. I have two jobs and I work my ass off to get by. One of my jobs I love, the other I dread. But I need to work these two jobs to get by.

I love America.

I graduated from Penn State in 2001 with an IST/Computer Science degree and a minor in Marketing.

I should be able to find a great job anywhere in the U.S. with my talents and abilities, but because of outsourcing I am stuck working two jobs so I can afford rent and bills.

George W. Bush supports outsourcing and because of that I don’t support him. Of course there are many other reasons I don’t support George W. Bush.

What other reasons?

How about the gay marriage issue? I am a straight man, however, I have a lesbian friend and a gay friend. They are two normal professionals searching for love. One day I have no doubt these two will find love and want to get married. Do they not deserve that right? If not, who is the government to tell them they don’t deserve health coverage and to reap the other benefits of a civil union? According to George W.'s religious fundamentalism he believes they don’t deserve that right.

I am also an American that believes in my civil rights and my right to Privacy. The so-called Patriot Act is repulsive and the way the Bush Administration threw the Patriot Act together and took away my civil rights is disgusting. Yes, I realized John Kerry signed this, but I also believe that Kerry was wrong to sign it and that he signed it un-knowingly. I am willing to forgive him of this if he repeals it or amends it.

We need to be strong in this war on terror, but taking away my liberties is a win for terrorists if you ask me.

I am voting for Kerry. I will fight to help Kerry win. But most importantly I am fighting to get Bush out of the White House.

12 year old Ilana Wexler said it best at the DNC last week when she said that she wants to put Dick Cheney and George Bush “on a very long time-out.”

Maybe you should quit bitching about your situation and blaming other people for your problems. Who made you choose that major?

What kind of man bitches because his job can be done more efficiently elsewhere? What do you want, some welfare job that is subsidized by other people’s tax money?

Just get off your ass and go back to school. Get a degree in something that can’t be outsourced. Take responsibility for your own life.

Marriage is between 1 man and 1 woman.

Trust me, I wasn’t bitching. I was explaining my situation. And I am doing something about my life. My second job is the job I love, and I’m working on turning that into my own small business.

And I’m doing something else to improve my situation…

I’m voting Kerry/Edwards!

Of course, you’ll vote for Bush, a man who thinks that companies that ship jobs overseas deserve tax breaks.

You think you’re entitled to a job because of your education? Man, that’s gotta be the most naive thing I’ve heard in a long time, but I’ll cut you some slack since you are young.

I’ve been in IT for almost 9 years now. Guess what. I got my degree in Psychology. The simple fact is, I can run circles around most guys that have an education in computer science. I took one basic computer class in college, and I quized out of it. When I was looking for a job, I sold myself in the interview and beat out other candidates that had your computer education.

Look, I don’t think the president is in favor of outsourcing to put more Americans out of work. In fact, he’s never supported outsourcing. The fact is, the tax laws that allow outsourcing have been in place much longer than Bush’s political career. The fact that he hasn’t done anything to stop it is not an advocation of such practices. Why didn’t Clinton do something to be pro-active and stop this potential? If you actually did a little research, you’d find that outsourcing isn’t as bad as some techs like to cry about. If you want specific labor statistics, ask me.

As for civil liberties, I’m not going to give this the attention it deserves, but… Democratic programs are what has driven our taxes through the roof to the extent that I have to give up a third of my paycheck to pay for this BS. I come from a poor family, but I’ve never asked for a handout in my life. Not from ANYONE. I’ve worked my ass off and done what I had to do so that I could make good money, own a home, and allow my wife to be a stay at home mother. Guess what, I’m also Indian, but I’ve never asked for a penny or disclosed such on any form I’ve ever filled out (including my college application).

I gotta run…

Of course, you’ll vote for Bush, a man who thinks that companies that ship jobs overseas deserve tax breaks.[/quote]

Do you have the slightest clue about outsourcing? Seriously. Read up.

Outsourcing is a very real problem, and I don’t think that Kerry has any kind of a workable solution. You can’t just subsidize all the companies that outsource. That’s impossible. The amount of money they save by outsourcing these jobs is enormous. When there are 2nd and 3rd world people that can do jobs just as efficiently and effectively as you can, but for 1/3 the cost, thats a hard bargain. Not to mention the lax environmental laws.

My opinion is that until these countries raise their standards of living, certain jobs will always be outsourced. Neither Bush nor Kerry has control over that.


Your young and have a lot to learn about the world. I am not insulting you just stating a fact.

In a capitalistic society the goverment and the president do not decide how companies will do the work they are paid for. If it could be done cheaper here ,and as well, then it would be done here. To impose a law contrary to that would be socialistic or bordering on communism. Economies change. We used to be agrarian, then industrial, then information. It is our freedom that fosters change and devlopment.

Now about this patriot act you are complaining about. Why? What civil rights or due process have you been denied? Of course we passed it in reaction to the terrorists. It is a power that gives law enforcement a new weapon. Just as RICO was used against organized crime. The goverment is not using it to monitor your porno rentals, they are using it to track the money transfers of suspected terrorists. Does it suck. Kind of. Is it effective. Ask an FBI agent if it helps them trail a terrorist.

Now as to voting for Kerry because you hate Bush. In my opinion, that’s a bad reason. Vote for a reason. Does Kerry have a better idea, a better plan. If so what is it? What will he do different? Does his record support that promise? I feel hate mongering is ineffective and counterproductive. I think they should both run on what they are for, not against.

Kerry says we shouldn’t outsource jobs and when he’s president we will not! That’s bullshit! Tell me how ,and why it is a good idea. Of course we would rather have the work done here but you say you don’t support the governments use of the patriot act to intrude on your privacy but you do support the government telling corporations they can’t outsource jobs at a lower cost. Seems to be a duality there.

Anyway my two cents. Hopefully you do not think I am being condescending. I guess I am just becoming my dad after all these years.

Excactly how much of your freedom has been sacrificed?

Look at the clothes you are wearing. Look at the computer you just typed your last post on. Look at the TV you watch every night. How many of them say “Made in China”, or some other foreign country?

Isn’t it just a tad bit hypocritical for you to bemoan outsourcing when everything you touch is made in a country that has taken jobs away from other Americans?

What will Kerry do different? Tax hikes on those who outsource? - Guess who winds up footing the bill for that - everyone.

We live in a global economy - outsourcing is just part of that economy.

Of course, you’ll vote for Bush, a man who thinks that companies that ship jobs overseas deserve tax breaks.[/quote]

I wish that you would do some research on this for yourself rather than regurgitating televised DNC speeches.

Be that as it may, overseas corporations do not receive “tax breaks”. There is a loophole in the IRS tax code that allows outsourcing U.S. companies to pay taxes solely to the country to which they outsource. This is attractive because sometimes they save upwards of 10 or 15%. This is not a problem that was “created” by G.W. Bush-- it has been in the tax code since the early 1900s.

Now, you may say that the law should be changed, and you may be right, but that alone is not going to stop outsourcing. Do the math.

5,000 employees in the U.S. assembling computer parts (or anything):

5,000 employees x 245 business days per year x 8 hours per day x ~$10.00 per hour = $98,000,000 US dollars

5,000 employees in an average 2nd or 3rd world nation assembling computer parts:

5,000 employees x 245 business days per year x 8 hours per day x ~$3.00 per hour = $29,400,000 US dollars

Granted, this is simple, but I was generous with it. Even giving the 2nd and 3rd world countries the benefit of the doubt, companies save 2/3s. This equation doesn’t take into account man hours per year (there are no mandatory holidays, so there are probably more than 245 business days), it doesn’t take into account longer hours (some up to 14 hours a day w/ little or no overtime), nor does it take into account the exchange rate. Right now the Indian rupee is 0.0215 of a U.S. dollar.

So yes, tax breaks save the companies a lot of money, but outsourcing saves them a gargantuan amount of money.

AlexPSU: Kerry not only signed the Patriot Act he authored parts of it. So to say that he signed it unknowingly is a stretch.

As with all elections the difference between the dems and reps are negliable. The two candidates were both born into wealth and political power. Both attended the same elite school, joined the same secret society that instructs members in the style and manners of the rulers and are able to run because they are funded by the same corporate powers.

I like you Hedo, you’re what makes me proud to be an American. You seem to have not only beliefs, but reasons for those beliefs.

I am young, at 26 I’m sure that MANY people know MUCH more than I do. Am I a Bush-basher? Yes. Am I a Bush-basher to the Michael Moore level? Absolutely not.

Truth is, I do work hard, so when people tell me to get off my ass and do something I get a little defensive.

I am an extreme liberal, I don’t find that to be an insult. I like the idea of being taxed and having programs put in place to help the middle class and small businesses. From what I’ve read (and trust me I’ve read a lot) George W. likes to spend money. He’s even put a few programs in place that would work if properly funded (No child left behind). However, his tax cuts alone, which I haven’t seen any of, and middle class families don’t see much of directly affects states whom rely on federal funds. Ask any employee who works for the State of Pennsylvania.

I’ve already stated that the civil unions issue is a big one for me. And to the poster who stated a marriage is between 1 man and 1 women, who document states that? Who said that? God? Because the separation of church and state issue comes up there. I stand for progress and this is a progressive issue. Banning Gay marriage isn’t going to make gay’s go away, it’s going to worsen the issue. I love women, and if I ever settle down I’m not going to feel threatened by two men or two women sharing the same bond as my wife and I.

I also haven’t done much research on stem cells, but I plan on it, and I know that Kerry plans on funding that.

Once again Hedo, I respect you for sharing your views and ideals in an informative and respectful manner. I’m only trying to do the same thing.

Bush Administration on outsourcing…

No Child Left Behind had more funding that it is using…to say it is unfunded is totally wrong.

[quote]AlexPSU wrote:
I graduated from Penn State in 2001 with an IST/Computer Science degree and a minor in Marketing.[/quote]

So… what do you do? Do you install networks? Write programs? Manage databases? Design user interfaces? Build web sites?

I mean, degrees are nice, but in MY company… I don’t hire people to have degrees. I hire them to do work.

Are you sure it’s because of outsourcing, and not because you spend too much money?

Kerry, on the other hand, supports raising taxes on the people who pay you. What do you suppose they’re going to do then? Give you a bonus?

Bush can’t ban gay marriage. He’s just stroking the canes of the religious right, the same way Clinton teabagged the gay community with his “gays in the military” bullshit.

I believe in everyone’s civil rights and right to privacy. And I believe that sometimes, we have to violate one person’s rights to protect everyone else’s. That’s why we register convicted sex offenders. If we can violate their right to privacy, why not a suspected terrorist?


I won’t jump on you as that has already been done. I will say that Kerry and his ambulance chasing running mate will not win in November! Therefore, when you get a good job (see how optimistic I am) you will be able to keep more of your take home pay thanks to President Bush!

Take care and welcome to the forum!

[quote]AlexPSU wrote:
Trust me, I wasn’t bitching. I was explaining my situation. And I am doing something about my life. My second job is the job I love, and I’m working on turning that into my own small business.

And I’m doing something else to improve my situation…

I’m voting Kerry/Edwards!

Of course, you’ll vote for Bush, a man who thinks that companies that ship jobs overseas deserve tax breaks.[/quote]

How many Heinz factories are in the U.S ?


Yeah God did say it. He didn’t put Adam and Aaron in the garden did he?

I’m not saying gay people don’t have rights they do individually. Do you think the founding fathers saw this as a problem? Probably not. So is it ok for 2 gay people to raise kids together? Were we meant for that? No I don’t hate gays. America is great you can do whatever whenever. You seem to be upset because things aren’t going your way.

I am sorry things aren’t going well be happy you live in America where you can change your situation. You don’t like Bush and that is ok. All I care about is that my kids have a place to grow up relatively safe. Had the 1st Bush finished Iraq my cousins and sister wouldn’t have had to go over there. I just hope this is done before my 10 and 7 year-old boys are old enough to go.

[quote]AlexPSU wrote:
I like the idea of being taxed and having programs put in place to help the middle class and small businesses.[/quote]

One thing I don’t get about people who think like you is how you can put so much trust in the government to do what’s right by your standards. You can’t see through all the self serving, pork-spending professional politicians on both sides of the aisle who don’t give a sweet flying crap about you, your causes, or the poor maligned middle class? Give me a break!

It’s the poor maligned middle class who eats it when taxes are too high. Those evil rich people are smart enough (how do you think they got rich? Oh, yeah, they were just lucky, weren’t they…) to manage their money in such a way as to avoid some of the taxes (and this I personally do not begrudge them), and the…well, I’m feeling politically correct…“less fortunate” DON’T PAY ANY TAXES! Many even receive free money (that someone else earned) in the form of that absurdly named Earned Income Credit. I also suggest that you refrain from complaining that you haven’t personally seen any tax cuts, since, out of your golden heart, you WANT to be taxed more. You should be thankful. By the way, everyone who pays taxes got a tax cut, so I’ll leave the obvious conclusion to reach itself.

Haven’t you ever noticed that no matter how much money we dump down those government entitlement ratholes, it’s never enough? With the overall growth in taxation on income in the US, you’d think we’d all be driving Lexses by now! It is just plain irresponsible and lazy to rely on the government to forcibly claim wealth from someone who earned it and give it to someone who didn’t, and then sit back and feel good about what a wonderful, generous, caring guy you are. Why don’t some of you kinder-gentler’s get together and start some charities of your own? That’s how the churches that you seem to have such a problem with have been doing it for thousands of years!

Thank you, I’m Barbara Streisand.

Quit your bitching! Nobody wants to here your political standpoints. You live in the best nation there is! move to Iraq if your not happy here, and then we will see how well you do. Only you are responsible for the outcome of your life.


I should take the time to sincerely welcome you to the forums here. Just so you know, I’m not trashing you personally, but as you might guess, I don’t agree with you and I think I can make a case for that disagreement. I usually don’t post in these political threads much. Anyway, we all have one thing in common here and that’s bettering ourselves, and believe it or not, we do help each other do that. This is a great site.

And, I’m sorry, but one more rebuttal. I do get very tired of hearing about opposition to gay marriage as being owned by the eeeevil “religious fundamentalists.” There is a biological order to society that provides for opposites to procreate. In settings other than that, there is a far greater risk of raising children with social and emotional problems, including drug abuse, alcoholism, depression, difficulty forming relationships, etc, etc, ad infinitum. This is supported by thousands of studies, not to mention by plainly observable reality. Maybe God is right, hmmm?

And I’m really George Clooney.