A Reason for War?

Oh Lumpy,

It was not my goal to make a fool of you, only to enlighten you and other readers. The Guardian has a certain rep as does the report and editor. Personnally, I am very happy to see the correction posted most times they are buried.
We have only to look at what is happening at the New York Times to see how accurate reporting can be.

Look at how the article is written. What adjectives are used and you can get a pretty good idea of the leanings of the report and editor. In the past I have written articles for several papers, only see what I have written take on a very different tone.

As for Private Lynch, I still agree 100% with the commander on the ground. I was originally trained by one of the Son Tay Raiders. Intel let them down.
And we all know that Military Intelligence is a oxymoron.

What is going to happen in Iraq over the next ten years will be most interesting. Try mixing post war Germany with some of the african countries after the British pulled out and mix in some Bonsain murder. I just hope the joint leadership will establish a working government.

Best of Luck

Spiderman,

The First Crusade *was* in response to the actions of the Turks in Christian holy lands.

Dustin

To Dustin

I agree with you that the Crusades were partly in response to the actions of the Kilij Arslan and the Seljuk Turks in Asia Minor and Jerusalmem.

You said that the Cruasades were in response to Islamic Crusades. I think the two statements are different and that this one is wrong.

Spiderman,

"You said that the Cruasades were in response to Islamic Crusades. I think the two statements are different and that this one is wrong."

Your right, I worded my post incorrectly. Thanks for pointing it out to me.

Dustin

restless,
I thought the reason I hadn’t seen your anti-American blathering was because your friends had had a sudden spasm of facism and sent you to tarrafal. Here is where I thought you were sent: Cape Verde Islands  -  Travel Photos by Francisco Santos.
Remember, restless’ government of Portugal, was facist until August 25, 1974. They had a FUNCTIONING CONCENTRATION CAMP UNTIL THAT DATE!!! When he says, “Restless-hating patriotic nationalistic nazis since as long as he can remember…” remember that his country practiced facism longer than any country in history.
Your President is here in the United States currently. I would like to shake his hand and thank him for supporting the United States. All Good Governments were a part of the Coalition of the Willing. We appreciated his help in our time of need. We have removed a murderous tyrant. Thank heavens we have liberated the people of Iraq from the fear of brutual torture and oppression. Thank God that there is a United States of America.

No worries Dustin.

Did you study the crusades at uni or is it just a personal topic of interest?

I love the crusades. Its about as interesting as history gets!!! Swords, swords and more swords!!!

There never was a reason for this war to begin with. HOw is it that Iraq was such a threat to the U.S.? Enough for a pre-emptive strike(is this unprecedented?) China has chem/bio weapons and nukes(which Iraq doesn’t)pointed at our country. The Soviet Union possesed these capabilities as well. However we were able to contain them without a pre-emptive strike. Those two countries are far more dangerous and posess a real threat to us. Why couldn’t this stratedgy work with Iraq, a far less deadly adversary?

It’s a fact of life. Not all countries are equal. If you get threatened by a pit bull you might respond a bit differently than if you get your ankle snapped at by one of those old lady rat dogs.

The USSR and China (to a much lesser extent) posed more of a danger of it being a tough fight if it came to that. As such dangerous adversaries they deserved more respect. Places like Iraq are more like the old lady rat dog, they think they are invincible but in reality they are not. The problem was that we felt Saddam would be willing to sell his bio or chem weapons to others that might use them in a 9-11 like attack.

The whole world knew he had them in 91. Many of our soldiers were exposed to them while blowing up ammo dumps and at that time we didn’t get anywhere near their major storage points.

He might have fought poorly but he played good chess. He either hid or destroyed the goods in the last few days when it was obvious to even him that we weren’t going to just blow up a couple of scud sites and go home like we’d been doing since 91.

Interesting interview with a weapons inspector.

Here’s a snip of it:
“During their stay, the team members never uncovered what they were seeking. Still, Casagrande came away with a distinct uneasiness. It seems unimaginable to him that a government so obsessed with documentation–the moving of a centrifuge from one room to another required extensive paperwork–would be unable to account for how it disposed of pathogens from its previous biowarfare program and to reveal what it did with large quantities of growth media used to culture pathogenic agents.”

What did Saddam have to gain by claiming to not have stuff everyone knew he had and then destroying it at the last minute? Discussions like this, making GW and the US look foolish, maybe saving a little face with his Arab brethren. It was a damn good chess move but the game isn’t quite over yet.

US=GG said: “All Good Governments were a part of the Coalition of the Willing. We appreciated his help in our time of need. We have removed a murderous tyrant. Thank heavens we have liberated the people of Iraq from the fear of brutual torture and oppression. Thank God that there is a United States of America.”

That’s interesting. The ‘good guys’ on the same side as the USA regarding aggression towards Iraq were the same ones who ignored >80% of their populations. The oppositions to the aggression was even greater in the countries whose leaders were kissing Bush’s ass. 95% of Turkey’s population was opposed to attacking & taking over Iraq, so the leader was opposed & the USA considered punishing them ecomonically, etc. Same with France, Germany, Canada, etc etc. What does that tell you about the Bush government’s attitude towards democratic ideals they claim to want to spread. They despise democracy. Anyone who ignored the majority of their population was a ‘good guy’ for doing so & anyone who listened to the people is ‘anti-American’ & should be punished. Sell your brand of ‘democracy’ somewhere else. (incidentally, another cornerstone of totalitarian states is for the leader to say “we’re going to war” & everybody starts marching & that’s all there is to it but I guess I’m not allowed to make that observation; it would be anti-American to do so)

Steely eyes: China and the Soviets also sold chem/bio weapons to others who may have been hostile to the U.S. so again why didn’t we attack them? Of course most of the world new Iraq posessed these types of weapons - we sold it to them! Your reply still doesn’t answer my question.
Monsoir quebec: great post

“China and the Soviets also sold chem/bio weapons to others who may have been hostile to the U.S. so again why didn’t we attack them? Of course most of the world new Iraq posessed these types of weapons - we sold it to them!”

I thought I covered it when I explained that they were/are tough potential adversaries. A fight with either would result in many more dead people per day than died in the whole Iraq war for one thing. The other is that we seem to have a touch more faith that the Russians and Chinese would stand by their word, which Saddam clearly did not.

When the Soviets agreed to disarmament the job of the inspectors was to stand by while the Soviets themselves destroyed the weapons. This was done. They honored their word. The US did likewise and destroyed weapons under supervision of their inspectors.

There is also the economic factor. We can and do use economic forces to bring about change with both China and Russia. We can do that because they need to trade with us more than we really need to deal with them. With Iraq we couldn’t do that. Their only major money source is oil and if we didn’t buy it anyone else would. As it was they were violating sanctions and selling it to Syria and others. That tends to undermine the effectiveness of economic means.

From a piece by Daniel Pipes (June 8, 2003)

"Iraqi and coalition military leaders met in Safwan, in southern Iraq, on March 3, 1991, to sign a cease-fire agreement. This was right after the U.S.-led coalition forces ejected Iraqi troops from Kuwait.

The agreement they drew up had many provisions ? specifying the cease-fire line, prohibiting certain activities by Iraqi troops, ending support for terrorism. Foremost among them was the demand that Baghdad dismantle all its WMD. To give this teeth, Baghdad had to accept outside inspectors who would locate and destroy the offending weapons."

"Exactly a month later, on April 3, the United Nations Security Council endorsed these terms in Resolution 687. The resolution required that Iraq "unconditionally accept the destruction, removal, or rendering harmless, under international supervision, of:

"(a) All chemical and biological weapons and all stocks of agents and all related subsystems and components and all research, development, support and manufacturing facilities;

“(b) All ballistic missiles with a range greater than 150 kilometers and related major parts, and repair and production facilities.”

The U.N. resolution also included provisions for a “Special Commission, which shall carry out immediate on-site inspection of Iraq’s biological, chemical and missile capabilities.” This work of locating and destroying was supposed to be completed in 120 days.

No way. Instead, for 7? years Saddam Hussein and his minions played a cat-and-mouse game. They hid weapons and documents, threatened the Special Commission personnel - and on the sly developed new WMD. "

So when you sign an armistice agreement to cease hostilities and then violate the terms of the agreement you can pretty well expect the resumption of hostilites. Otherwise what good would any cease fire or surrender treaty mean in the future? The loser in the conflict wouldn’t have a lot of bargaining power to save the lives of it’s remaining troops if the winner couldn’t or wouldn’t trust that the terms of surrender would be honored.

So, Russia is not China is not Iraq. Each situation is very different. There is no one size fits all solution to every problem…even if the problem is similar on it’s face to another one.

Steely Eyes: Oh so china/Soviets could actually put a hurtin’ on the u.s. so the lesson to the world is: build your arsenal as fast as you can because this will help to ensure the u.s. doesn’t attack your country. That is exactly what is going on. many countries are accelerating their nuclear weapons program due in large part to the u.s. invasion of Iraq.
The “dismantling” of the weapons by the soviets and our country was mostly symbolic. It did little in terms of the damage both countries could do with the arsenal they still possesed. the effect was essentially nil.
What “faith” did we have with the other two countries. China still has one of the worst human rights records around and years ago said they’d nuke L.A. if we got in their way over the Taiwan subject. I don’t see how that jives with your arguement that we more faith in them, but then again maybe we did have faith in that they would bomb us?
Most big business don’t give a shit about human rights records. And they have a major influence with politicans to treat china with kid gloves so the dough can keep rollin in.
The Soviets and China break arms treaties. The Soviets (as well as the u.s.) consistenly go against u.n. resolutions. Why is it okay for us and other powerful countries to do such things but not Iraq?
Again how is it that Iraq had to be attacked? How were they such a threat to us? How could we not contain them but did so with much greater adversaries? You and the war party(neo-conservatives) have never answered that basic question.

by the way is lying about a war an impeachable offense?

US=GG, my country didn’t murder 5 million, unlike yours, so who’s the Nazi then? ummm?

Krispy Kreme donuts are tasty, especially the glazed rasberry filled. The war was a huge conspiracy by the Mcdonalds corporation, Krispy Kreme,pharmacuetical industry and the blood for oil guys. And the Pope. and Santa Claus. Oh, and my mom. It had nothing to due with any WMD’s of course. I bet Reagan was at fault somewhere too.
The Village Voice? Why don’t you quote such other great tomes such as High Times? The world would be a btter place if more of this energy was diverted to the squat rack or deadlift platform.

"Oh so china/Soviets could actually put a hurtin’ on the u.s. so the lesson to the world is: build your arsenal as fast as you can because this will help to ensure the u.s. doesn’t attack your country. That is exactly what is going on. many countries are accelerating their nuclear weapons program due in large part to the u.s. invasion of Iraq. "

The arms race started when some nerd bound a knapped flint tip onto his spear and found out it was better than the fire hardened wood his buddies were using.

The US has no more or less responsiblity to “teach” the world anything more than any other country does.

India and Pakistan accelerated their programs in response to each other and it was US pressure that got them backed off from flinging nukes at each other. We do some things people view as good (those are things in their interest too) and things some people view as bad (those things that aren’t in their interests) just like every other country out there. We’re the biggest military and, for now economic, power so we get to be the scape goat for all the worlds ills. Oh well, it beats being hungry enough to have to eat a 10 year old boy. (See cannibalism post)

"What “faith” did we have with the other two countries. China still has one of the worst human rights records around and years ago said they’d nuke L.A. if we got in their way over the Taiwan subject. I don’t see how that jives with your arguement that we more faith in them, but then again maybe we did have faith in that they would bomb us? "

Ever heard of spies? We have those. Our actions in regards to the USSR were based on intelligence we got from many places, including their most secure communications. It’s the same with China. It pays to know stuff.

Human rights are a separate issue. People and countries have many facets. Oskar Schindler was a hero to many Jews but his wife doesn’t agree; he was also a womanizer. If you try to deal with all the issues at once you never get anywhere. Every journey is a series of steps.

“Most big business don’t give a shit about human rights records. And they have a major influence with politicans to treat china with kid gloves so the dough can keep rollin in.”

You’re right, they don’t. When you get to own a big business or get in office you can change all that. What’s that got to do with the war in Iraq?

"Again how is it that Iraq had to be attacked? How were they such a threat to us? How could we not contain them but did so with much greater adversaries? You and the war party(neo-conservatives) have never answered that basic question. "

It’s been answered. You just seem to doubt the veracity of the information provided so I guess you’ll have to come up with an alternate scenario, sell a book about it, and get rich. I was not a huge supporter of the war. I was on the fence for a while. The WMD evidence and the ties to terrorism (even though the top terrorists of the 80’s Abu Nidal and Abu Abbas lived in Bagdad until recently) seemed a bit thin. Add that to getting rid of Saddam and the torture he inflicted on thousands of people a year and it tipped the scale for me. I guess it wasn’t enough for you. We can disagree, it’s OK, it’s a free country.

It is almost comical that the Bush admin is STILL defending their position that Al Quaida worked with Hussein, and Hussein was in on 9/11 - contradicting intelligence.

Well, saw Bush on CNN say that Bin Laden & Hussein both dislike the US so they MUST have worked together. Proof enough for me!
Never mind all that about Hussein oppressing Muslims, I’m sure Osama would overlook a small point like that given his forgiving nature.

Donuts man, You gotta hit the donuts.

irondoc is on to sumthin’, that Krispy Kreme glaze should be classified as an WMD - blowin up thighs all over the place