T Nation

A Question About Alleged Natural Contests

If there is personal harm and the user deals with his resultant medical and subsequent emotional problems all by his lonesome, fine. I think a chunk of users don’t.

From a societal standpoint, it also opens up a can of worms if there’s approval for non-clinical use of medication: what other medications should people be able to use at will?

I admit I’m hypocritical in my statements considering I followed bodybuilding for much of my life and have friends who use. Fortunately my friends have healthy fear and deal with their problems.

You might like this discussion Stu and I had with “the steroid lawyer” Rick Collins.


Talking about Lee Priest’s genetics, both his parents were bodybuilders, so he got the double whammy of bodybuilding DNA

Dad, who still competes in his 70s.



I wonder how much having succesful parents–who know how to train, sculpt, eat, the whole enchilada–raising a kid in that lifestyle makes a difference.

It seems like it would be virtually ideal circumstance if the kid is into it.

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Certainly, it’d be extremely helpful in relation to competing… but 20 inch arms LEAN when you can barely exercise due to the fact that you’ve got nerve damage stemming from being in a violent car crash, have extensive nerve damage from the injuries + following surgery… it doesn’t add up. I should furthermore state there is a ceiling behind how big one can get naturally. If I recall correctly his mother made that transformation in a number of months

I don’t doubt he worked very, very hard. but there’s no way he was natty until he was 19, I don’t think his father was either tbh… he’s seventy… But I could be wrong. I don’t wish to make you upset, this is my conveyed opinion.

Is this to say his parents didn’t work extremely hard? Obviously not, look at his physique, that doesn’t come without a great amount of diet, training, work ethic (many years of it… you’re not going to look like that in a year regardless of what you take)

Unless they’ve got an MSTN gene mutation, I can’t see this being possible naturally (regarding Lee and his father)

If I recall correctly many years back there was a guy on here who was a teenager… he posted some pics on the Pharma forum and clearly had world class genetics… fast forward about ten years… he was in either the Mr Olympia or competing very high up

It was rate my physique

And amazingly, one of our more prominent posters at the time ragged on his genetics, haha.

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I’m not.

I’m just considering more than drugs.

I can actually look at these elements with consideration for my own kid. He loves lifting with me (playfully. I don’t drill him) and has a decent overhead and dead lift. And Loves hulking out flexing and stuff. He eats, well, like a 7 year old. A little better actually. Loves salmon, chicken, etc. but is still a little picky.

But I don’t necessarily have the genes for mass, though they could be in there. His mother actually used to be pretty jacked and quite strong too.

So anyways, all of those elements have to come together in a perfect storm of sorts. I’ve been around steroids and drugs my whole life, literally. I know that it takes more than just that.

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Look at how fucking buff he was… Jesus… after only one cycle… (legal PH’s at that time typically refer to designer steroids)… He said he’d only put on a statistically insignificant amount from said run, thus a good 95%+ of where he’d gotten to was naturally attained… that’s fucking amazing, we could all only wish for such a response to lifting!

Unfortunately starting points don’t always dictate how big one can get. Some scrawny guys have exceptional responses to weights/stimulus to grow whilst another naturally big dude may barely budge from conventional weight training. This guy had a decent starting point, an amazing response to lifting

How is he doing currently? Is he still alive?

We’re referring to burden on the public healthcare system right? What about people who choose to smoke tobacco/drink to excess and end up in hospital from MI/hepatic/renal failure/cancer or whatnot… should we say “well they shouldn’t be able to access help?” If we are referring to people taking out their AAS induced emotional burden on others… you’re right, that’s absolutely unacceptable. Also, thanks for the video, looks like an interesting watch and I’ll check it out asap

I disagree with the notion of policing people for actions that only hurt themselves… I think as a fully developed, mentally competent adult one should have the ability to make the simple decision “can I put this in my body”.

There are a few countries wherein AAS are approved for OTC use and/or are legal for personal use, not that it’s important… but the sky didn’t fall. I’m not advocating legalisation, as I believe for something as complex as AAS the majority shouldn’t be using… they have no idea what they’re putting into their body… but decriminalisation/legalisation for personal use I agree with. I don’t see the point of locking a guy up for a few years because he had a few vials of test.

What medications do people already use at will though. Heroin, oxycodone (opioids), benzodiazepines, z-drugs, cannabis, cocaine you name it… restrictive measures haven’t stopped people from taking this stuff. It isn’t to say “legalise everything”, but personal use shouldn’t net jail time in my opinion… go after the suppliers if you want to cut off the supply, punishing users does nothing to stop the drug trade in it’s tracks.

We also need more funding put into legitimate harm minimisation/educational programs (absent of bias, with programs like DARE/generalised “just say no programs” people saw right through). I recall one study looking at teens (adults may be different), it came to the conclusion many tune out when told obviously biased and/or ideologies preaching abstinence because it wasn’t relevant to them, their life (what peers or even they might be doing). Kids tended to listen properly when unbiased information regarding the risks of varying substances were disclosed to them. I believe if the majority knew “look, if you take this you might require TRT for the rest of you’re life, long term you might be looking at cardiac enlargement etc”… they wouldn’t be messing around with AAS

However this is a thread for a different topic. I don’t wish to de-rail this thread.

Btw I’m currently watching the video you sent me… it’s very, very interesting, highly appreciated

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That’s Aaron Clark. You can look him up.

Genetics always help, but I have to wonder (and I may be way off base here), at what age he had “the talk” with them,… not about sex, about gear usage.



I don’t know whether it’s acceptable for a parent to talk about their child about using gear (if say under 18). I’ve heard of many parents giving their child GH for sport… on rare occasions if the child has a shot at being drafted they’ll even administer gear (be it through taking their child to a shady clinic for a script or outright giving UGL products)… but I find this profoundly immoral. It’s the Childs choice to make, not the parent’s… a 15/16y/o kid can’t entirely comprehend the potential rammifications his decisions may entail, and his parents GIVING/condoning gear usage may make the (presumably normal) child think “well if my folks are alright with it… it’s okay”

I mean, his mom made that transformation with her son in six months (normal looking to that)… what are the chances she dipped into his stash?

I’ll openly admit I have no clue,… but going to local amateur NPC shows, and seeing the occasional TEENAGER sporting a physique that any 25-30 year old who had been training for a few years would be envious of does raise an eyebrow or two regarding the subject.


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Yes, there are many kids who use gear. I know a few (they don’t compete/nor are they involved within competitive athletics)… one uses SARMS/GH year round (idiot)… but he’s a very large individual. I can almost guarantee you their parents have no idea (be it naivety, ignorance regarding the topic or turning a blind eye).

The majority of kids I know who use/want to use gear (something of which I refuse to provide advice regarding… other than stating the potential ramifications) hop on because they wish to be personal trainers… wish to look the part (which is… dumb… but I’m not going to say that to them). There’s also the fallacy within my age group that SARMS are “safe”… but they’re not, they about on par with gear.

The preliminary data on the compounds indicate dose dependent elevations in LFT’s if I recall correctly, depression in HDL/increase in LDL, extensive suppression of SHBG (sound familiar, these are characteristics reminiscent of AAS, the LFT alterations only being primarily implicated within those of a c17aa nature…), dose dependent suppression of the HPTA. Take into account the recreational dosages of sarms are about 5-10x+ those used within clinical trials, yet they’re being marketed as safe…

Whoever decided to market these to teens should be put in prison… or pay out MASSIVE sums of money to all the kids they’re irreparably damaged

Regardless, this is a topic for a different thread.

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More like not their choice … or like … a choice with a punishment.

This is where I’d honestly disagree… 99% of the time, parents don’t have a clue and/or turn a blind eye. I’d be shitting bricks if my 15y/o kid was using gear (if I had a kid that is)… most parents aren’t educated within this field, might see the results and think “wow, he’s really been working hard”… think nothing more of it.

The punishment isn’t imposed by an authoritarian figure in this case, the punishment is self inflicted (neurologically, a shut down HPTA relating to hypogonadism had to be one of the worst feelings I’ve ever felt)… during the emotionally voilatile period of adolescence, this would be a DISASTER!

Long term consequence is also a prospect most users (child or adult) overlook. Most kids using aren’t exactly “conservative”; there’s the “I’m young, invisible, nothing bad will ever happen to me” mentality, thus many youngsters use absurd dosages for prolonged periods of time… the chance for complications increase exponentially the higher the dosage gets. Dosages over say 500mg weekly are where I think it starts to get seriously risky, I think 99.5 percent of guys using gear use more than this (TRT doesn’t count)

If you are saying it’s a disaster and you’re correct, most normal parents don’t want such or any disaster.

Regarding only harm to self regarding recreational use or abuse of drugs: this concept works if drug users remain on their best behavior and quarantine themselves in their rooms and with long term use still have the same sound judgment they had before wrecking their brains with dust, crack, meth, etc. Have you ever lived, spent time, or worked in a town with a good chunk of the population on drugs? (No, I’m not talking about weed and booze, although alcohol has also had people go beyond harming themselves.)

Yes, it’s a subject for another thread.

It can be and has been since the concept of a family came about.

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I have a long, highly detailed response for this, but as you’ve specified it’s for another thread

I’ll end with this. I dislike the notion of AAS users being compared to those using had drugs. Rarely do you see a guy on test unable to contribute to society/hold down a job. Rarely do you see a guy on some test/deca deteriorating rapidly into a psychotic, violent state like you’d see with PCP, methamphetamine etc.

I’ve been around drugs… I’ve seen the consequence that can stem from addiction. I also believe booze is one of the more harmful substances of recreation available (not at the level of crack or meth)… but when chronically abused few substances elicit the same level of systemic toxicity. Furthermore the consequences/risky behaviour that can stem from ones drunken exploits tends to surpass that of say… MDMA, cannabis, psychedelic drugs (in a safe environment) and more… I’d argue booze is riskier than many substances one can net jail time for possessing. The war on drugs/tough on crime/punitive approach to this kind of behaviour has been a failure in my opinion

A parent won’t typically be able to discern the signs of AAS abuse within a child… you and I might be able to notice, but most parents won’t, thus the majority of the punishment induced is self inflicted. But yes, if a parent finds gear in their 14 y/olds room, by all means DROP THE FUCKING HAMMER!

Regardless, we can agree to disagree. As someone who has experimented with (admittedly very low dosages) of synthetic androgens after having been put on TRT, I can state with certainty that it hasn’t affected my ability to function as an adequate, contributing member of society.

If you wish to continue this convo I’ll create a new thread “AAS use and ramifications: who does it harm?”. I actually think it’s a very interesting topic in general and like hearing the ideologies harboured by others so I can better understand different bodies of thought (same with gun control, LGBTQI rights, thoughts on immigration etc)

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I had an old friend (@BrickHead knows who I’m referring to) who was a national level competitor, Gear dealer, as well as engaging in other… “questionable” activities who used to always say that no one takes a shot of Deca and then gets behind the wheel of their car “under the influence” and runs over a bunch of kids.



Of course it doesn’t. I was speaking of other subjects and contexts of our conversation. I also spoke of steroid use at specifically 15 or 16 not being tolerated in my or others’ households. @The_Mighty_Stu