T Nation

A Nation on the Edge of Revolt

Well when the country was founded by people with different ideals to get away from the European ideals.

When a majority don’t want to go back to that, it can lead back to the origin,

kind of like the 4th generation theory.

If you like the way your country runs and being part of a global collective great, have fun with that.

If there are a group of people here that want that, they can go back to Europe and if there are those there that would rather pursue liberty send them over.

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

The eight years prior to Obama were just as bad as this, and set many of the precedence for executive power that now allow Obama to do what he’s doing. If all those who are now screaming “The sky is falling” had been half as critical of Bush as they are now of Obama, we’d be in a much different, and far better place as a nation.

[/quote]

This makes no sense. So because Bush sucked we should allow Obama to suck as well? Sucks that more people didn’t speak out about Bush, I agree with you that for the most part he sucked pretty hard, but in no fucking way should that equate to a pass for Obama. This shit goes both ways. The left and dems bitched and moaned while Bush was in office, where is that same outrage now since Obama has turned out to be the exact same? You can’t play both sides.

[quote]dk44 wrote:

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

The eight years prior to Obama were just as bad as this, and set many of the precedence for executive power that now allow Obama to do what he’s doing. If all those who are now screaming “The sky is falling” had been half as critical of Bush as they are now of Obama, we’d be in a much different, and far better place as a nation.

[/quote]

This makes no sense. So because Bush sucked we should allow Obama to suck as well? Sucks that more people didn’t speak out about Bush, I agree with you that for the most part he sucked pretty hard, but in no fucking way should that equate to a pass for Obama. This shit goes both ways. The left and dems bitched and moaned while Bush was in office, where is that same outrage now since Obama has turned out to be the exact same? You can’t play both sides.[/quote]

Because Bush sucked and you didn’t care, you should ask yourself what you’re really upset about.

Obama shouldn’t get a pass, but many of the arguments against him don’t hold water coming from a population that still gives Bush a favorable rating over 70%.

Now the second part of your post seems more telling: it’s really about “us” vs. “them” isn’t it? If one of “us” is in power, it doesn’t matter how shitty a job they do, how much debt they run up, or how many civil liberties they violate, right? Because they’re on of “us”.

The civil-libertarians on the left should be up in arms angry at Obama. But the reality is that many people on the left don’t think he’s doing enough. In their magical Keynesian fantasy, Obama could fix everything with GOVERNMENT POWER!!! if he really wanted to, it’s just those evil corporate interests keep getting in the way.

Hey. I’d love for you guys to prove me wrong. I’d love to see the 2012 Republicans get crushed because all this talk of “revolution” and tea parties has something real behind it, and all these guys who’ve voted Republican all their lives, but insist they’re independent, take a stand and don’t vote for the next Bush or Romney or Palin just because they’re a better chance at beating Obama.

I mean, this is all really a joke. We know come November this year, and then again 2012, all these Tea Partiers and the like are just going to vote Republican, like they always do. And when the next Bush/Romney/Palin gets elected, they will all take their small government signs and rhetoric and go home.

Get real, I am for a smaller govt. period point blank. You want to paralyze an entire movement because not enough people protested Bush. Once again, you cannot bitch and moan about people not sticking it to Bush, when your not giving Obama the same shit. They are nearly fucking identical. What has Obama done differently, in the smaller/bigger govt. sense? If you think Bush is bad, then Obama is clearly worse right? Where is your outrage? So when another dumb fuck Rep. gets elected president, you better not say shit, since you won’t speak bad about your dear savior now. See what happens when we play this game, Rinse and Repeat.

Instead of playing the game they (Big Govt.) wants us to play, we should all be outraged. They want us to bicker amognst ourseleves, they want to divide us, the want to keep the status quo. Fuck that, I for one am happy that people are coming out of their lazy political coma. So you betcha I wish people would have screamed bloody fucking murder when Bush was in office fucking up this country, but I will not turn a blind eye to the exact same shit in a different package.

It is ok guys. Bush Lovers are Racists, and Obama Lovers are Government Tit suckers. Now that we have that out of the way, lets move on to the future and how are we going to get this ship’s course changed?

[quote]skaz05 wrote:
“I’m mad as hell and I’m not going to take it anymore! Tired of the government intruding on my life! I’m so angry I’m going to get out of my chair and… Oh! The game’s on, honey! Get me a beer!”[/quote]

This!

I agree with Spartiates 100%.

I think that the “Revolutionaries” of the 20-10’s have about as much credibility as the “Revolutionaries” of the 60’s.

Put the GOP back in power (which will likely happen)…and they will “talk-the-talk” of smaller Government (like they are now)…“shuffle” the money around to keep their base happy…Government will get bigger…and the “Revolution” will die.

Mufasa

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
I agree with Spartiates 100%.

I think that the “Revolutionaries” of the 20-10’s have about as much credibility as the “Revolutionaries” of the 60’s.

Put the GOP back in power (which will likely happen)…and they will “talk-the-talk” of smaller Government (like they are now)…“shuffle” the money around to keep their base happy…Government will get bigger…and the “Revolution” will die.

Mufasa

[/quote]
Nah, the GOP will push for a war to get them out of this economic disaster(see the broken window theory/fallacy) when that happens the left will rise up once again, and now that their is for the most part a unified movement that they can join with I think if the GOP comes back to power we will see not a revolution in the sense that people will start a war but maybe a revolution in the sense of a third party being created.

[quote]dk44 wrote:
Get real, I am for a smaller govt. period point blank. You want to paralyze an entire movement because not enough people protested Bush.[/quote]

No. I apologize if I haven’t been clear in my posts. The problem isn’t that the people involved in “the movement” didn’t protest Bush enough, but then suddenly had a come-to-God small government epiphany as soon as Obama got the Democratic nomination. While that seems like an unlikely thing to have happen, if it did, I’d be on their “team”.

The problem with the movement is that it’s disingenuous, and filled with a population (there’s poll data to back this up) that would STILL, RIGHT NOW, TODAY support Bush and his policies. They are still a population that nearly unanimously doesn’t want social security or medicare touched. They are still a population that nearly unanimously won’t even consider slashing defense spending. They are a group that nearly unanimously supports a federally-backed social agenda including a federal ban on abortion access, the “War on Drugs” and other massive wastes of money on intrusive government.

The problem is that most (not all, and I know there are some real libertarians attached to the movement, hoping that it will turn around) of the people involved in the movement think the Republicans aren’t Republicany enough (the one’s who called McCain a RHINO), not the people who see the Republican party as fundamentally flawed and philosophically unsound.

[quote]dk44 wrote:
Once again, you cannot bitch and moan about people not sticking it to Bush, when your not giving Obama the same shit. They are nearly fucking identical. What has Obama done differently, in the smaller/bigger govt. sense? If you think Bush is bad, then Obama is clearly worse right? Where is your outrage? So when another dumb fuck Rep. gets elected president, you better not say shit, since you won’t speak bad about your dear savior now. See what happens when we play this game, Rinse and Repeat. [/quote]

What makes you think I’m not outraged? While I never had the fantasy that Obama and I were on the same page politically, he did promise to do a number of things I strongly support: End the war in Iraq, close Guantanamo, restore the civil liberties smashed by the “Patriot Act” and other such legislation, restore government transparency, and reign in the power the executive. You know, basic “good government” stuff. Anyway, he hasn’t done any of that, so he failed to do the few things he said he would that we agreed on. Yeah, I’m pretty pissed.

[quote]dk44 wrote:
Instead of playing the game they (Big Govt.) wants us to play, we should all be outraged. They want us to bicker amognst ourseleves, they want to divide us, the want to keep the status quo. Fuck that, I for one am happy that people are coming out of their lazy political coma. So you betcha I wish people would have screamed bloody fucking murder when Bush was in office fucking up this country, but I will not turn a blind eye to the exact same shit in a different package. [/quote]

Again, I think you’re kidding yourself: this movement will die once they have “their guy” in office, and by “their guy” I mean anyone with a “R” next to their name.

Here’s my question for you: In 2012, will you vote for the Republican nominee because he/she will have a chance at beating Obama or will you “throw your vote away” and stand by your principles and vote for someone that will likely siphon more votes from a Republican candidate, but if they even just got 20% of the popular vote, would create a massive new force in American politics?

[quote]Spartiates wrote:
Here’s my question for you: In 2012, will you vote for the Republican nominee because he/she will have a chance at beating Obama or will you “throw your vote away” and stand by your principles and vote for someone that will likely siphon more votes from a Republican candidate, but if they even just got 20% of the popular vote, would create a massive new force in American politics?[/quote]

Somebody like this guy, perhaps?

Spartiates, you have captured the dissatisfaction that I and many moderate Republicans feel towards the GOP.

[quote]Spartiates wrote:
Here’s my question for you: In 2012, will you vote for the Republican nominee because he/she will have a chance at beating Obama or will you “throw your vote away” and stand by your principles and vote for someone that will likely siphon more votes from a Republican candidate, but if they even just got 20% of the popular vote, would create a massive new force in American politics?[/quote]

I’ve already decided that in 2012 I’m voting for a third party candidate regardless of who the Republicans run. I might be persuaded to change my mind if the Republicans field a moderate and intelligent candidate. Palin doesn’t fit that description. In fact, the idea of a President Palin is scarier than another term of Obama.

I fully realize that a vote for a third party candidate will effectively be a vote for Obama (or at least a lost vote for the Republicans) but I don’t care. We need a viable third party. I have had it with both parties.