T Nation

A Nation of Cowards

Does this offend anyone else besides me?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090219/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/holder_race

I am not from America so maybe I don’t have the perspective however I don’t see anything offensive in what he says. It does represent a pretty sweeping generalisation but that isn’t in itself offensive.

I don’t get offended by much though as I feel that it is a personal choice to be offended. If I disagree with what someone says then fine, I disagree but why waste the energy to be offended by someone else being dumb?

Sweeping generalities are often the cause for someone(s) getting offended (e.g. all Mexican are lazy - not my opinion, but one that I have heard stated).

People who make sweeping statements are more ignorant than helpful.

Besides, what good could ever come from such a statement?

To be fair, he isn’t saying white americans are cowards in that regard, but all americans. I still think he’s a jackass for saying it though.

[quote]Dr_Razor wrote:
Does this offend anyone else besides me?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090219/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/holder_race [/quote]

Obama is surrounding himself with assholes like this, and criminals. I saw the clip and I’d like to see this lowlife cumstain wade ashore at Normandy, telling those men they were cowards. Or the freedom riders in the South protesting segregation.

Obama surrounded himself with scum in Chicago and now he’s doing it at the national level. Yet the world adores him…how absolutely pathetic.

[quote]Dr_Razor wrote:
Sweeping generalities are often the cause for someone(s) getting offended (e.g. all Mexican are lazy - not my opinion, but one that I have heard stated).

People who make sweeping statements are more ignorant than helpful.

Besides, what good could ever come from such a statement?[/quote]

I agree (with the Mexican thing as well.) But I don’t think that what he wrote was that bad. It’s certainly true for a proportion of the population and all he was doing was making generalisations to get a reaction and to get his message out there.

If it sparks a debate about something that is important then it is helpful.

I don’t see the problem with what he said in the article, so long as the sentiment was aimed at all races and not just whitey.

Racial tensions stem from all sides, and it’s past time we start leveling criticism at racists of all colors.

But thus far, Americans by and large have been afraid of doing so.

As an aside, this paragraph caught my eye:

[quote]
In a country founded by slave owners, race has bedeviled the nation throughout its history, with blacks denied the right to vote just a few decades ago. Obama’s triumph last November as well as the nomination of Holder stand as historic achievements of two black Americans.[/quote]

While that’s true, I don’t recall hearing many “Hosannas!” when W. continually put minorities in powerful positions.

Colin Powell, Condoleeza Rice, Alberto Gonzalez, Carlos Guiterrez, Elaine Chao, Rod Paige, Mel Martinez, Alphonso Jackson, Norman Mineta, and Spencer Abraham were all minorities who served on W.'s cabinet.

Where was the credit then?

[quote]Dr_Razor wrote:
Does this offend anyone else besides me?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090219/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/holder_race [/quote]

No. I think it would be a welcome development if we could discuss things like the color of crime and the correlation between race and IQ without someone yelling, “Racist!” Something tells me that this isn’t what Holder has in mind.

[quote]tGunslinger wrote:

In a country founded by slave owners, race has bedeviled the nation throughout its history, with blacks denied the right to vote just a few decades ago. Obama’s triumph last November as well as the nomination of Holder stand as historic achievements of two black Americans.

[/quote]

Funny, last I looked, John Adams, Alexander Hamilton and Sam Adams, among many others, never owned slaves. I’d say he was ignorant, but he knows exactly what he’s doing.

mike

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Dr_Razor wrote:
Does this offend anyone else besides me?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090219/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/holder_race

No. I think it would be a welcome development if we could discuss things like the color of crime and the correlation between race and IQ without someone yelling, “Racist!” Something tells me that this isn’t what Holder has in mind. [/quote]

Agreed

Is it even possible to get through high school or college these days without being beat over the head about race, racism, and diversity?

I personally agree with the the NAACP spokesperson quoted in the article: I believe Holder’s statement was ‘constructively provocative’.

I think he’s right about the segregation bit. Saturdays and Sundays are still pretty segregated in America. That said,it’s less so during

I think the main difficulty with his statement is that if honest discussions about race were brought up, it probably wouldn’t necessarily go the way he would expect them to. Kids are told to be sympathetic to the plight of working blacks in public schools, and that’s cool.

I think if you broaden the discussion to include how people of all cultures get along in America you’d find it looks pretty good; Amrerica is a picture of a well-established melting pot of cultures, far superior to anywhere else in the world.

It’s a good discussion to have though.

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
tGunslinger wrote:

In a country founded by slave owners, race has bedeviled the nation throughout its history, with blacks denied the right to vote just a few decades ago. Obama’s triumph last November as well as the nomination of Holder stand as historic achievements of two black Americans.

Funny, last I looked, John Adams, Alexander Hamilton and Sam Adams, among many others, never owned slaves. I’d say he was ignorant, but he knows exactly what he’s doing.

mike[/quote]

Nevermind the many, many, many, many, many others who did own slaves who we can safely assume Holder was speaking of.

In other words, I think you don’t know what ignorant means, unless you meant knowledgeable.

[quote]100meters wrote:
Mikeyali wrote:
tGunslinger wrote:

In a country founded by slave owners, race has bedeviled the nation throughout its history, with blacks denied the right to vote just a few decades ago. Obama’s triumph last November as well as the nomination of Holder stand as historic achievements of two black Americans.

Funny, last I looked, John Adams, Alexander Hamilton and Sam Adams, among many others, never owned slaves. I’d say he was ignorant, but he knows exactly what he’s doing.

mike

Nevermind the many, many, many, many, many others who did own slaves who we can safely assume Holder was speaking of.
[/quote]

Specifically George Washington, who presided over the constitutional convention, and Thomas Jefferson, who wrote the Constitution.

I mean, I’ll agree that the ownership of slaves among the founders is not nearly as uniform as Holder’s statement would have the uninformed believe, but he’s got a point.

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

Another point which is sadly overlooked is that many races have suffered over the course of the history of this great nation. What about the genocide of Native Americans or the treatment of the Japanese around WWII?

Additionally, I am sure many of us have diverse friendship circles. And some of us (presently company included) have had long term relationships with those of a different race.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Otep wrote:
100meters wrote:
Mikeyali wrote:
tGunslinger wrote:

In a country founded by slave owners, race has bedeviled the nation throughout its history, with blacks denied the right to vote just a few decades ago. Obama’s triumph last November as well as the nomination of Holder stand as historic achievements of two black Americans.

Funny, last I looked, John Adams, Alexander Hamilton and Sam Adams, among many others, never owned slaves. I’d say he was ignorant, but he knows exactly what he’s doing.

mike

Nevermind the many, many, many, many, many others who did own slaves who we can safely assume Holder was speaking of.

Specifically George Washington, who presided over the constitutional convention, and Thomas Jefferson, who wrote the Constitution.

I mean, I’ll agree that the ownership of slaves among the founders is not nearly as uniform as Holder’s statement would have the uninformed believe, but he’s got a point.

Back to U.S. History 101 for you, Otep. Jefferson did not write the Constitution. You’re thinking of the guy who was elected Pres after Tom.

[/quote]

Point. Madison was the father of the Constitution, Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independance. They both owned slaves.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Is it even possible to get through high school or college these days without being beat over the head about race, racism, and diversity?[/quote]

The Pythagorean Identity and basic trig idents as an avatar? Now I respect you even more! :>

My kids will/are all go to a private school simply because I know what goes on in the publics. If we had school vouchers, most parents would FLEE from the publics.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

Some of you bozos would be well served by staying out of discussions that involve American history when you only possess an elementary knowledge of it.[/quote]

I take it then that Howard Zinn should stay out of this discussion?

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Is it even possible to get through high school or college these days without being beat over the head about race, racism, and diversity?

The Pythagorean Identity and basic trig idents as an avatar? Now I respect you even more! :>

My kids will/are all go to a private school simply because I know what goes on in the publics. If we had school vouchers, most parents would FLEE from the publics.

[/quote]

I think that you have your answer why there are no school vouchers then.

Or would you like to bail out teachers unions too?