A Little Help Here?

[quote]cavalier wrote:
Welcome to the forum, Rick. Just ignore the guys trying to eat you for not doing 5/3/1.

Actually, the physique in the photo is fairly doable. I reserve “genetic freak” for Ronnie Coleman or Jay Cutler. Joe is right, 147 at under 6 ft is pretty slender. A little more muscle really won’t hurt. I’m about your height and when I was 147 I felt like a toothpick. Be sure you’re eating a generous amount of protein and see if you can start moving the weights up.

Can you do regular bench presses? You can use more weight with a bar than juggling dumbs.

As for “I don’t want to get too big”, take it from a guy who has sweated buckets for every stubborn ounce of muscle, if you’ve found a fast way of getting strong, I sure wish you’d tell me! :slight_smile:
[/quote]

Thanks!

Yeah, I could use a barbell. I only switched to dumbbells because I heard they were better for you because you could put your hands in a more natural position for pressing.

[quote]RSDavis wrote:
Do you think that 2000 calories on lifting days is enough? I’m trying to kind of zig-zag it so that on non-lifting days I am burning fat, and on lifting days I am building muscle. Is that even possible?[/quote]

Ahh, the eternal question. How to build muscle and lose fat at the same time? I’d like to hear from the others, but from what I understand and what I’ve learned, my answer would be… maybe. Supposedly it can be done, but only under very specific circumstances. Training has to be exact and carbs and protein very carefully timed. Just about impossible for a beginner to stumble upon it. I’m not an expert on it, so I don’t try it.

My guess would be if you’re doing a lot of intense cardio inbetween days of lifting, you’ll slow down any muscle gains.

For what it’s worth, here’s my .02. At your size, you don’t have a huge amount of fat on you. I recommend start pushing for strength and thus muscle increase. You’ll need to pack down a lot of food, more than you think you can handle, but if you choose it right, you won’t gain too much fat with the muscle. Go heavy on meat, lean veggies, a little fruit, nuts, lots of water. Limit grains, dairy, sugar. Once you’ve packed on 20 or 30 lbs, cutting shouldn’t be too hard.

[quote]RSDavis wrote:

[quote]Dude623 wrote:
Remember your not 20 anymore, things don’t work like that anymore. I see some of my biggest gains after what I would (used) to consider slacking off. I’m serious about the 5M vitamin. and then due a total body workout at what you mite consider as slacking , this will due 2 things 1)motivate you to make every scheduled lifting day and 2 you won’t be sore you will be getting ripped.[/quote]

Is sore a bad thing? I always kind of feel proud when I’m sore, like I’ve accomplished something.[/quote]

studies show little relation to protein synthesis and other markers…

[quote]RSDavis wrote:

[quote]JoeGood wrote:
Its really hard to tell without with numbers of reps, sets and the weight you are doing.

Plus it would be good to know your height, because if you are taller than say 5’ 6" then you are probably headed into vegan yoga instuctor territory.

So more info would help a lot. [/quote]

I’m 5’10". My first superset is reps of 10, and I do as many supersets as I can in 12 minutes. My second superset is reps of 12, and I also do as many sets as I can in 12 minutes. It usually ends up being 4 or 5 for the first, and 3 or 4 for the second.

On the benches, I usually use 35s, on the squats, I’m doing about 150, deadlifts 100, romanian deadlifts 35s, lat pulldowns 65, one armed row 40, upright row 40, reverse curl 40, Arnold press 20, supinated curls 20.

Are you thinking less sets/higher weights? I don’t want to get too big. I don’t want to get too small, either, haha…[/quote]

If you are on the floor more then AN hour with the about workout above, you have come close to the perfect way to way to maximize catabolism (muscle wasting)… add some steady state cardio and you’re there…

Also looked up BMR, if I remember correctly your 5’ 10’’ 147 male 35…
http://health.discovery.com/centers/heart/basal/basal.html

1630 just in BMR.

On the abs thing. the rectus abdominus is one muscle, the 6 pack look is from banding of the muscle fascia… Most people have it, some don’t of those some are genetic some acquired it.

[quote]Null wrote:
If you are on the floor more then AN hour with the about workout above, you have come close to the perfect way to way to maximize catabolism (muscle wasting)… add some steady state cardio and you’re there…[/quote]

I drink a protein shake right after my workout. About 25g whey, 25g casein. With the milk I mix it with, that equals 62g protein, 30g of carbs. Shouldn’t that help to counteract the catabolic state? I used to do all Whey, but I read an article that said a Baylor University study indicated mixing the two had shown some pretty good results.

I’m asking, not preaching. Just trying to learn.

[quote]cavalier wrote:

[quote]RSDavis wrote:
Do you think that 2000 calories on lifting days is enough? I’m trying to kind of zig-zag it so that on non-lifting days I am burning fat, and on lifting days I am building muscle. Is that even possible?[/quote]

Ahh, the eternal question. How to build muscle and lose fat at the same time? I’d like to hear from the others, but from what I understand and what I’ve learned, my answer would be… maybe. Supposedly it can be done, but only under very specific circumstances. Training has to be exact and carbs and protein very carefully timed. Just about impossible for a beginner to stumble upon it. I’m not an expert on it, so I don’t try it.

My guess would be if you’re doing a lot of intense cardio inbetween days of lifting, you’ll slow down any muscle gains.

For what it’s worth, here’s my .02. At your size, you don’t have a huge amount of fat on you. I recommend start pushing for strength and thus muscle increase. You’ll need to pack down a lot of food, more than you think you can handle, but if you choose it right, you won’t gain too much fat with the muscle. Go heavy on meat, lean veggies, a little fruit, nuts, lots of water. Limit grains, dairy, sugar. Once you’ve packed on 20 or 30 lbs, cutting shouldn’t be too hard.
[/quote]

I’ve been kind of thinking that, too. Although I may wait until the end of summer. One of my short-term goals was to be ripped up by Summer so I won’t be embarassed when I take my kids to the pool. :slight_smile:

So, maybe I’ll keep cutting until pool season is over and then try to bulk up over the winter. With that in mind, any advice?

[quote]RSDavis wrote:

[quote]Null wrote:
If you are on the floor more then AN hour with the about workout above, you have come close to the perfect way to way to maximize catabolism (muscle wasting)… add some steady state cardio and you’re there…[/quote]

I drink a protein shake right after my workout. About 25g whey, 25g casein. With the milk I mix it with, that equals 62g protein, 30g of carbs. Shouldn’t that help to counteract the catabolic state? I used to do all Whey, but I read an article that said a Baylor University study indicated mixing the two had shown some pretty good results.

I’m asking, not preaching. Just trying to learn.
[/quote]

Ok,
First: you self report that given your workload your barely at survival level calories day over day… I presume that includes pre/post workout intake. Even if you’re under reporting calories by 10%, there’s still an intake problem… YOU’RE STARVING YOURSELF!

Second: I wasn’t speaking about nutrition at all, but biochemical / hormonal response.

[quote]RSDavis wrote:

I’ve been kind of thinking that, too. Although I may wait until the end of summer. One of my short-term goals was to be ripped up by Summer so I won’t be embarrassed when I take my kids to the pool. :slight_smile:

So, maybe I’ll keep cutting until pool season is over and then try to bulk up over the winter. With that in mind, any advice?[/quote]

Over 35, gaining muscle gets harder and harder…

IF you were 25% then you did an amazing job of preserving lean body mass…
weight Bf % body fat lean body mass
170 0.25 42.5 127.5
147 0.13 19.11 127.89

IF 20% then you lost 8 lbs of muscle… a bit more then 25% of total loss, an excellent achievement…
weight Bf % body fat lean body mass
170 0.2 34 136
147 0.13 19.11 127.89

If can continue these ratios down to 10% bf, you’d weigh in around 140…

As for me: I’m 6’ 280, about 20-30% bf (calipers measured 21%, electrical impedance 30%, I’m going with 30%). Even worse it is all in the heart attack zone. I won’t be embarrassed at the pool.

Other then those close to me, I really don’t care about other people’s judgements… Now, if they can teach me something, well I’m all ears.

I will have a lower bf. It would certainly be healthier. I’m doing my best to not sacrifice muscle to loose fat. I know I’m going to have a hard time seeing my strength decline.

And thus the opposite problem: how to trim down without losing strength? I know, we’re absolutely terrified of the weights slipping down. I should probably do it after the meet, getting pudgy, but can’t stand losing hard-won muscle.

Still, a friend at my gym joined at 270 lbs, twice my strength but with a pot belly. He’s been trimming it down but says he’s keeping strength. So it’s possible.

[quote]Null wrote:

[quote]RSDavis wrote:

[quote]Null wrote:
If you are on the floor more then AN hour with the about workout above, you have come close to the perfect way to way to maximize catabolism (muscle wasting)… add some steady state cardio and you’re there…[/quote]

I drink a protein shake right after my workout. About 25g whey, 25g casein. With the milk I mix it with, that equals 62g protein, 30g of carbs. Shouldn’t that help to counteract the catabolic state? I used to do all Whey, but I read an article that said a Baylor University study indicated mixing the two had shown some pretty good results.

I’m asking, not preaching. Just trying to learn.
[/quote]

Ok,
First: you self report that given your workload your barely at survival level calories day over day… I presume that includes pre/post workout intake. Even if you’re under reporting calories by 10%, there’s still an intake problem… YOU’RE STARVING YOURSELF!

Second: I wasn’t speaking about nutrition at all, but biochemical / hormonal response.[/quote]

Maybe I don’t understand catabolism. What I had read was that for several hours after a workout, ones body produces a lot of cortisol, which leads the body to cannibalize muscle rather than burning fat. What I read is that to counteract that effect, one should ingest shortly after the workout at least 50g of protein and 30g of carbs, all fast absorbing. Is this not true?

[quote][quote]RSDavis wrote:

I’ve been kind of thinking that, too. Although I may wait until the end of summer. One of my short-term goals was to be ripped up by Summer so I won’t be embarrassed when I take my kids to the pool. :slight_smile:

So, maybe I’ll keep cutting until pool season is over and then try to bulk up over the winter. With that in mind, any advice?[/quote]

Over 35, gaining muscle gets harder and harder…

IF you were 25% then you did an amazing job of preserving lean body mass…
weight Bf % body fat lean body mass
170 0.25 42.5 127.5
147 0.13 19.11 127.89

IF 20% then you lost 8 lbs of muscle… a bit more then 25% of total loss, an excellent achievement…
weight Bf % body fat lean body mass
170 0.2 34 136
147 0.13 19.11 127.89

If can continue these ratios down to 10% bf, you’d weigh in around 140…[/quote]

To be sure, 25% was an estimate. I’ve been working out for about seven months. At the 3rd month, I had my % checked, and it was at 19%. That was also around the time that my weight plateaued at around 150lbs. So, for the last four months, my weight has not changed really, but my percentage dropped 6%. So, I just did some rough estimating.

  • R

[quote]RSDavis wrote:
Maybe I don’t understand catabolism. What I had read was that for several hours after a workout, ones body produces a lot of cortisol, which leads the body to cannibalize muscle rather than burning fat. What I read is that to counteract that effect, one should ingest shortly after the workout at least 50g of protein and 30g of carbs, all fast absorbing. Is this not true?

[quote][quote]RSDavis wrote:

To be sure, 25% was an estimate. I’ve been working out for about seven months. At the 3rd month, I had my % checked, and it was at 19%. That was also around the time that my weight plateaued at around 150lbs. So, for the last four months, my weight has not changed really, but my percentage dropped 6%. So, I just did some rough estimating.

  • R
    [/quote]

Metabolism is not well understood, at least in a high rigor, double blind experiment scientific level. Most of the studies are small n (population). Rarely do you see “trained” individuals and even when they are, sometimes it reads like Planet Fitness level of training experience.

There are some excellent articles on this site about recovery, and such. However, I find the best source of information ( I tend to discount bald assertion) to be Muscular Development.

It is true that you can blunt it somewhat with proper nutrition but the effect is rather limited, excepting PED’s…

With proper workout design, intensity and short time between sets and exercise selection you can really exceed your ability to recover in an hour of actual lifting. There are decent studies supporting: splits, Full body (Even HIT) and Circuits weight lifting and both Interval and long duration/low intensity ( > 4hr) cardio type work outs for body composition changes…

The studies were all un"enhanced" populations, so if “enhanced” well, no studies there…

There are decent studies about some nutritional interventions such as: increased protein, carbohydrate/insulin management(for lack of better terms), fish oil, green tea, among others.

Even worse case you have achieved remarkable fat loss with only 8 lbs of muscle lost…

Personally, my goal is to get down to 250, but keep my deadlift, and squat the same or better and increase my bench and MP while improving my long distance bicycle capabilities… So slow and steady incremental improvements.

[quote]Null wrote:

As for me: I’m 6’ 280, about 20-30% bf (calipers measured 21%, electrical impedance 30%, I’m going with 30%). Even worse it is all in the heart attack zone. I won’t be embarrassed at the pool.
[/quote]

Impedence has been shown to not work right for folks with higher than average muscle mass(most of the scales that do it have a ‘Note’ about it not working correctly for muscular folks), and my experience shows it too. When I was in the army, at PLDC, back in 1996, I weighed 218, at 7% bf by calipers, had visible abs, and the impedence thing showed me at 15% bf. While another guy, who was a stick, with no tone anywhere, and an obvious roll on his beltline showed 3% bf with the electric impedence device.

If I were you, I would be thinking the calipers were closer to the truth than the impedence device.