A Little Gun History

[quote]johnnybravo30 wrote:

…and spark debate I did. This is obviously an emotional topic for you as you went way beyond the things I mentioned. Please re-read my very first sentence before you put me on your “People I won’t give guns to when the shit hits the fan” list.
[/quote]

Allow me to temper my response a little better. My argument wasn’t personal, just heated. I just know several people who have to deal with the ATF, and I assure you that they are NOT the good guys. They bully gun store owners and try to force them out of business. Examples of reasons to be harassed by the ATF in Idaho are to have people put Y or N instead of yes or no in background check forms. The ATF is the worst federal department in the US. It’s full of racists and bullies and the exact people with the John Wayne attitude that you deplore.[quote]

*Note - Ethical gun retailers have the common sense not to sell some guy from out of town 10-12 handguns per month the way shops like the Arrowhead Pawn Shop (4th worst offender) in Georgia does. 54% of legally purchased guns that are used in crimes come from less than 1% of the 80,000 gun retailers in the US.
[/quote]

That’s fine. But it is something that could and should be handled by the FBI. [quote]

  1. I didn’t give any indication that I thought Uzis shouldn’t be modified. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if the strange and illogical modification law you informed me of was the the result of some congressman being in the pocket of some gun manufacturer. It makes no sense as anything but method for eliminating foreign competition.[/quote]

Call me crazy, but implying that the more radical wing of the NRA (which would be me) could take our illegally modified uzis to make a sprinkler out of our heads sounds as if you were against it. I guess I misread.[quote]

But to non-gun folk, you know its the modification to fully automatic that worries them. [/quote]

I know, and it’s ridiculous that they do. The only real value in a machine gun is for supporting fire. A semi-automatic AR-15 would be much more deadly in a person’s hands than a fully automatic rifle. In smaller spaces I concede a submachine gun would be valuable, but even so, I’d rather have to deal with some hoser with an MP5 than an M4.

Your concern for a John Wayne attitude cuts both ways. Hollywood has left uninformed citizens thinking that a gun is some easy point and kill weapon that anyone can use. People who haven’t fired a gun seem to think that you don’t need skill.

mike

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
johnnybravo30 wrote:

  1. I didn’t give any indication that I thought Uzis shouldn’t be modified. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if the strange and illogical modification law you informed me of was the the result of some congressman being in the pocket of some gun manufacturer. It makes no sense as anything but method for eliminating foreign competition.

Call me crazy, but implying that the more radical wing of the NRA (which would be me) could take our illegally modified uzis to make a sprinkler out of our heads sounds as if you were against it. I guess I misread.
[/quote]

Yeah the blood sprinkler thing was in reference to people that object to crackdowns on proven and repeated “crime gun” suppliers for no rational reason. When the party line is that guns must be kept out of the hands of criminal, but it’s actions prevent that, it seems hypocritical. It may be that Wayne Lapierre is only saying such things to keep public scrutiny off the NRA. Having more people, especially, but certainly not exclusively, poor black people, that can be thrown in jail on weapons violations is very good for the “prison industrial complex” (a very interesting and topic). My comment had nothing to do with illegally modified Uzis per se, which I’m sure you’ll confirm for me would be even less effective than that MP5 in most situations.

I know. I got to use both a fully automatic M-16 and PPSh-41 while backpacking in Laos. I was hopeless.

My sister in law was headed to Westroads mall, where the shooting occurred, (Although I doubt that specific store,) when she decided to hit the grocery store first. She lives about a mile from the mall.

I just think if one person was carrying, and brave enough, this might have ended with less death.

We just passed a conceal carry law here. Although in Lincoln they passed some addition resulting in all the stores having signs up telling people they are not allowed to bring a concealed firearm into the store. I actually do not know if they did the same thing in Omaha, but I doubt it.

Really this is a very stupid addition to the law. Name one criminal who would decide not to bring in a concealed gun into a place because of a sign.

I don’t know a single guy who has carried a concealed gun, but even before this law I have known a few women who carried guns in their purses. A stripper friend of mine even showed me her gun after telling me that all the strippers she knows, plus many of her non stripper friends carry.

Back to the shooting, we are hearing that the kid sold drugs, and was known to have wild parties. And this “poor homeless” kid had what looked like a fairly new jeep SUV.

[quote]johnnybravo30 wrote:

For the sake of debate, I must provide an example that will annoy… umm… every single person that has posted thus far. Canada has some of the strictest gun laws in the world (despite this there is still a shit-load of legal gun ownership). Over the past two decades, gun crimes have consistently been on the decline in Canada. However, what has been on the rise is gang related crime. Where are these guns coming from? From the US of course, the majority coming from states with the loosest gun regulations. Arms dealers repeatedly purchase a substantial number of guns from licensed firearms dealers and sell them to gang members in areas with stricter gun control (e.g. NY city, Canada).

[/quote]

Fallacious argument. Canada, per capita, has more gun ownership than the United States. That puts your whole premise on very unstable ground I would say.

I dont have the time to post here much anymore, but I do have to say this.

These high profile “active shooter” situations can only reliably be stopped one way…armed citizens. The bad guys will always get weapons. Dont think for a second that every draconian gun law in the world will stop some nut from carrying out his plans. I saw evidence of this during a conference with an expert from the FBI’s behavioral Science Unit. The speaker stated plainly that people motivated to cause this kind of harm will not be stopped…only diverted.

The most recent spree shooting in Colorado was stopped by an armed security guard…not police.

I can speak with some authority on the police response. It is my job and I have received a good deal of training in it. However, no one, even the police, can overcome the obstacles of time and space. A few armed, motivated citizens in the right place and the Omaha shooter may have been a much smaller footnote in history. The police response is much better today than it was a decade ago, but there will always be a gap that cannot be overcome.

How did we turn into such a nation of cowards that we have so many, including politicians, scholars and even chiefs of police, arguing against the right of am American citizen to defend themselves? It is amazing how the false promise of a little security can morph our once proud people into sheep.

And Mike, how have you been?

[quote]johnnybravo30 wrote:
has some of the strictest gun laws in the world (despite this there is still a shit-load of legal gun ownership). Over the past two decades, gun crimes have consistently been on the decline in Canada. However, what has been on the rise is gang related crime.
[/quote]

Not really an argument here johnny, so much as a request for clarification. You tell us that in Canada, gun crimes are down. That’s great. But gang-related crime (not necessarily gun-related) is UP as a direct result of the US’s lax laws against evil gun owners. If gun ownership is as common in Canada as you say, why do we have to automatically assume that the gangsters are getting their guns from south of the border? And further, “Gang-related” crime is a little vague. It might indicate gangs shooting it out with other gangs, gangsters stealing guns from legal owners, or gangs of thugs who rob innocent passers-by who are conveniently unable to defend themselves as a direct result of Canada’s enlightened gun laws.

[quote]johnnybravo30 wrote:
Is this behavior, on the part of the NRA, that allows the illegal arms market thrive and people like David Koresh to acquire massive arsenals really about the right to bare arms, or is it a result of being blinded by ideology?
[/quote]

I’m not sure why Koresh & co. should be held up as the poster children for irresponsible gun ownership. Everything I’ve read indicates that those people were religious zealots who never hurt anyone until they felt their lives were in danger. It sounds like a case of justifiable paranoia to me.

Furthermore, how many instances do you know of where a militia or organized group of gun owners was responsible for any murders or crime of any type? Isn’t it consistently the result of a solitary idiot or psycho who in most cases STOLE a gun off of a legal owner? Sounds like Canada has a LOT more rounding up to do before you can be safe from those evil mind-altering firearms.

[quote]JD430 wrote:
I dont have the time to post here much anymore, but I do have to say this.

These high profile “active shooter” situations can only reliably be stopped one way…armed citizens. The bad guys will always get weapons. Dont think for a second that every draconian gun law in the world will stop some nut from carrying out his plans. I saw evidence of this during a conference with an expert from the FBI’s behavioral Science Unit. The speaker stated plainly that people motivated to cause this kind of harm will not be stopped…only diverted.

The most recent spree shooting in Colorado was stopped by an armed security guard…not police. [/quote]

And it was a tiny chick to boot. Apparently it was just a member of the congregation. I don’t think she was even a trained security guard. The church came together and decided they’d like armed security there and she volunteered. Isn’t that something?[quote]

I can speak with some authority on the police response. It is my job and I have received a good deal of training in it. However, no one, even the police, can overcome the obstacles of time and space. A few armed, motivated citizens in the right place and the Omaha shooter may have been a much smaller footnote in history. The police response is much better today than it was a decade ago, but there will always be a gap that cannot be overcome. [/quote]

It’s amazing that that argument alone doesn’t silence gun-grabbers.[quote]

How did we turn into such a nation of cowards that we have so many, including politicians, scholars and even chiefs of police, arguing against the right of am American citizen to defend themselves? It is amazing how the false promise of a little security can morph our once proud people into sheep.
[/quote]

I don’t know. The wife was linked over to a police message board re: the grandma that got caught with a gun in Disneyworld. Apparently Disneyworld has a no CCW policy that carries over even to cops, probably because we all know that criminals will not break the law by bringing guns into a gun-free zone to murder anyone. Anyways, the cop in question here flipped out claiming that they need to get the law changed so that cops can carry off-duty, basically saying that he understands it for citizens, but he wanted to be able to protect his family. You know the type.

I still stand by the fact that the greatest blame goes to the citizens themselves. I think entitlement programs and government sticking its nose into everything have been the greatest culprit in causing our citizens to become as docile as they are. There’s no need to grow up when you have a big brother everywhere you go to look after you.[quote]

And Mike, how have you been?[/quote]

Finishing up finals week. It’s a shame you haven’t been around to add some insight in the taser thread. I think you could have had something of value to add.

mike

You will have to excuse me for not following all in this thread. I thought this was significant. For once a good read from a News Paper.

Btw, I have to agree.

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/kevin_o_brien/index.ssf?/base/opinion/1197452680280820.xml&coll=2

I am not for men carrying concealed guns around everywhere they go.

I do, however, believe that every house should have a gun, for it is the ultimate check and balance against a malicious government or an invading force.

And this is coming from a hardened Jersey liberal.

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:

I don’t know. The wife was linked over to a police message board re: the grandma that got caught with a gun in Disneyworld. Apparently Disneyworld has a no CCW policy that carries over even to cops, probably because we all know that criminals will not break the law by bringing guns into a gun-free zone to murder anyone. Anyways, the cop in question here flipped out claiming that they need to get the law changed so that cops can carry off-duty, basically saying that he understands it for citizens, but he wanted to be able to protect his family. You know the type.

I still stand by the fact that the greatest blame goes to the citizens themselves. I think entitlement programs and government sticking its nose into everything have been the greatest culprit in causing our citizens to become as docile as they are. There’s no need to grow up when you have a big brother everywhere you go to look after you.

And Mike, how have you been?

Finishing up finals week. It’s a shame you haven’t been around to add some insight in the taser thread. I think you could have had something of value to add.

mike[/quote]

The argument that is sometimes made by law enforcement is that they are more highly trained than most citizens. That is a hit-or-miss argument. While there are some incredibly talented weapons handlers and tacticians in law enforcement, on average I would say it does not hold true. In theory, at least, law enforcement is held to a higher standard than a CCW holder in terms of background investigation and selection. Personally, I get very aggravated by any private entity that denies someone their right to carry.

Your point about a weakened citizenry giving themselves over to government in every facet of their lives is the root of most of the problems in our country today…gun rights are just one aspect.

Ive chimed in on a number of Taser threads. If this one is real recent that you are talking about, direct me to it and I’ll tell you what I think.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I am not for men carrying concealed guns around everywhere they go.

I do, however, believe that every house should have a gun, for it is the ultimate check and balance against a malicious government or an invading force.

And this is coming from a hardened Jersey liberal.[/quote]

Why are you against men carrying arms?

I guess the fact that a hardened Jersey liberal doesnt completely dismiss the 2nd amendment and the common sense it stands for is encouraging. I am quite familiar with the NJ liberal, BTW.

Maybe after some more thought, you will come around completely.

[quote]JD430 wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
I am not for men carrying concealed guns around everywhere they go.

I do, however, believe that every house should have a gun, for it is the ultimate check and balance against a malicious government or an invading force.

And this is coming from a hardened Jersey liberal.

Why are you against men carrying arms?

I guess the fact that a hardened Jersey liberal doesnt completely dismiss the 2nd amendment and the common sense it stands for is encouraging. I am quite familiar with the NJ liberal, BTW.

Maybe after some more thought, you will come around completely.

[/quote]

No. Not likely. Maybe in your hillbilly states where you guys grew up with that shit, it’s part of the culture, and therefore you can handle it.

In Jersey, there’s about 14 million people crammed into a tiny area. The last thing we need is guns being carried around constantly… there’d be more shootings than there already are.

A rifle in your trunk if you’re going hunting? Understandable.

A gun in your house in case it’s attacked? Absolutely.

A handgun on your belt when you go buy a pack of smokes? Making up for a small cock, or doesn’t know how to fight with the hands. Take your pick.

(I’m kind of kidding. Just illustrating my point.)

I don’t trust regular people to carry a gun all the time. Fuck me, I don’t even trust the cops carrying a gun all the time.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
JD430 wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
I am not for men carrying concealed guns around everywhere they go.

I do, however, believe that every house should have a gun, for it is the ultimate check and balance against a malicious government or an invading force.

And this is coming from a hardened Jersey liberal.
Why are you against men carrying arms?

I guess the fact that a hardened Jersey liberal doesnt completely dismiss the 2nd amendment and the common sense it stands for is encouraging. I am quite familiar with the NJ liberal, BTW.

Maybe after some more thought, you will come around completely.

No. Not likely. Maybe in your hillbilly states where you guys grew up with that shit, it’s part of the culture, and therefore you can handle it.

In Jersey, there’s about 14 million people crammed into a tiny area. The last thing we need is guns being carried around constantly… there’d be more shootings than there already are.

A rifle in your trunk if you’re going hunting? Understandable.

A gun in your house in case it’s attacked? Absolutely.

A handgun on your belt when you go buy a pack of smokes? Making up for a small cock, or doesn’t know how to fight with the hands. Take your pick.

(I’m kind of kidding. Just illustrating my point.)

I don’t trust regular people to carry a gun all the time. Fuck me, I don’t even trust the cops carrying a gun all the time.
[/quote]

I have lived my whole life in New Jersey. I am a law enforcement officer in New Jersey and I have at least 1 gun on me every where I go.

I can say with authority that this is one of the most crime ridden, impolite, corrupt places in the union. Every time I leave the state, I wonder why I come back…always returns to my
pretty substantial pension and family ties. More decent, armed people and many less confused social engineers(Im not talking about you as I dont know you well enough…a courtesy you denied me)would probably make this state a much better place better to live.

Small cock? Cant fight with my hands? This is where this discussion is going?

Im glad I spent my time.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
JD430 wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
I am not for men carrying concealed guns around everywhere they go.

I do, however, believe that every house should have a gun, for it is the ultimate check and balance against a malicious government or an invading force.

And this is coming from a hardened Jersey liberal.

Why are you against men carrying arms?

I guess the fact that a hardened Jersey liberal doesnt completely dismiss the 2nd amendment and the common sense it stands for is encouraging. I am quite familiar with the NJ liberal, BTW.

Maybe after some more thought, you will come around completely.

No. Not likely. Maybe in your hillbilly states where you guys grew up with that shit, it’s part of the culture, and therefore you can handle it.

In Jersey, there’s about 14 million people crammed into a tiny area. The last thing we need is guns being carried around constantly… there’d be more shootings than there already are.

A rifle in your trunk if you’re going hunting? Understandable.

A gun in your house in case it’s attacked? Absolutely.

A handgun on your belt when you go buy a pack of smokes? Making up for a small cock, or doesn’t know how to fight with the hands. Take your pick.

(I’m kind of kidding. Just illustrating my point.)

I don’t trust regular people to carry a gun all the time. Fuck me, I don’t even trust the cops carrying a gun all the time.
[/quote]

Try fighting with your hands when someone pulls a pistol on you. That said, are you saying that my 100lb wife should be expected to put up a spirited defense and knock out some 200lb guy who’s hopped up on pcp?

mike

[quote]JD430 wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
JD430 wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
I am not for men carrying concealed guns around everywhere they go.

I do, however, believe that every house should have a gun, for it is the ultimate check and balance against a malicious government or an invading force.

And this is coming from a hardened Jersey liberal.
Why are you against men carrying arms?

I guess the fact that a hardened Jersey liberal doesnt completely dismiss the 2nd amendment and the common sense it stands for is encouraging. I am quite familiar with the NJ liberal, BTW.

Maybe after some more thought, you will come around completely.

No. Not likely. Maybe in your hillbilly states where you guys grew up with that shit, it’s part of the culture, and therefore you can handle it.

In Jersey, there’s about 14 million people crammed into a tiny area. The last thing we need is guns being carried around constantly… there’d be more shootings than there already are.

A rifle in your trunk if you’re going hunting? Understandable.

A gun in your house in case it’s attacked? Absolutely.

A handgun on your belt when you go buy a pack of smokes? Making up for a small cock, or doesn’t know how to fight with the hands. Take your pick.

(I’m kind of kidding. Just illustrating my point.)

I don’t trust regular people to carry a gun all the time. Fuck me, I don’t even trust the cops carrying a gun all the time.

I have lived my whole life in New Jersey. I am a law enforcement officer in New Jersey and I have at least 1 gun on me every where I go.

I can say with authority that this is one of the most crime ridden, impolite, corrupt places in the union. Every time I leave the state, I wonder why I come back…always returns to my
pretty substantial pension and family ties. More decent, armed people and many less confused social engineers(Im not talking about you as I dont know you well enough…a courtesy you denied me)would probably make this state a much better place better to live.

Small cock? Cant fight with my hands? This is where this discussion is going?

Im glad I spent my time.[/quote]

Fucking hell, you guys are touchy. What’d I say? It’s a damn joke.

Yea, NJ is a tough place to live. It’s not the nicest, happiest place in the world. If you think that more people with guns would change that, then I can respect your opinion. I just severely disagree and think that more people carrying concealed weapons would make Jersey’s already high crime rate even worse, but amongst people who would not normally do it- it wouldn’t make Camden a more deadly place, but I think it would make the suburbs worse… more vigilante wannabe’s drawing their guns. You being a cop, you have training in how to use a gun and when to fire it. I’d imagine that you’re more aware of the repercussions of pulling that trigger than most- and yet sometimes even cops make bad decisions. So I trust normal people even less to make the right one.

Going all the way home to get a gun at least gives someone time to think about what they’re doing- pulling it off their hip in a mall or something gives them a split second to decide whether or not to take someone’s life… and that’s hard for me to accept that they can take my life in their hands just because they feel they should. I hope the guy isn’t a shitty marksman.

Like I said, it’s not in our culture here. In Texas, Oklahoma, they’re used to it, came up with it. We didn’t here. I don’t see a reason to change that.

And… not to be a complete dick, but man, if you hate Jersey so much, there’s Route 80. Take it on out. There’s about a million guys on line waiting to be cops so they can have your big ass pension.

[quote]Hagar wrote:

Take note my fellow Americans, before it’s too late! The next time someone talks in favor of gun control laws, please remind them of this history lesson. When we own firearms, we are ‘citizens’. Without them, we are ‘subjects’.

During WWII the Japanese decided not to invade America because they knew most Americans were ARMED!

[/quote]

Let me give you another example. I’m originally from the Greek island of Crete. The Cretian population have always been very fond of their “toufekia”, rifles.

This is what happened during the major Nazi airborne assault on Crete, the first time mass civilian resistance was encountered by invading German troops. The Allies also played a key role.

“Everywhere on the island, Cretan civilians, armed and otherwise, joined the battle with whatever weapons were at hand. In some cases, ancient rifles which had last been used against the Turks were dug up from their hiding places and pressed into action. In other cases, Cretan civilians went into action armed only with what they could gather from their kitchens or barns, and many German parachutists were knived or clubbed to death in the olive groves that dotted the island. In one recorded case, an elderly Cretan clubbed a parachutist to death with his walking stick before the German could disentangle himself from his parachute lines.”

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
JD430 wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
JD430 wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
I am not for men carrying concealed guns around everywhere they go.

I do, however, believe that every house should have a gun, for it is the ultimate check and balance against a malicious government or an invading force.

And this is coming from a hardened Jersey liberal.
Why are you against men carrying arms?

I guess the fact that a hardened Jersey liberal doesnt completely dismiss the 2nd amendment and the common sense it stands for is encouraging. I am quite familiar with the NJ liberal, BTW.

Maybe after some more thought, you will come around completely.

No. Not likely. Maybe in your hillbilly states where you guys grew up with that shit, it’s part of the culture, and therefore you can handle it.

In Jersey, there’s about 14 million people crammed into a tiny area. The last thing we need is guns being carried around constantly… there’d be more shootings than there already are.

A rifle in your trunk if you’re going hunting? Understandable.

A gun in your house in case it’s attacked? Absolutely.

A handgun on your belt when you go buy a pack of smokes? Making up for a small cock, or doesn’t know how to fight with the hands. Take your pick.

(I’m kind of kidding. Just illustrating my point.)

I don’t trust regular people to carry a gun all the time. Fuck me, I don’t even trust the cops carrying a gun all the time.

I have lived my whole life in New Jersey. I am a law enforcement officer in New Jersey and I have at least 1 gun on me every where I go.

I can say with authority that this is one of the most crime ridden, impolite, corrupt places in the union. Every time I leave the state, I wonder why I come back…always returns to my
pretty substantial pension and family ties. More decent, armed people and many less confused social engineers(Im not talking about you as I dont know you well enough…a courtesy you denied me)would probably make this state a much better place better to live.

Small cock? Cant fight with my hands? This is where this discussion is going?

Im glad I spent my time.

Fucking hell, you guys are touchy. What’d I say? It’s a damn joke.

Yea, NJ is a tough place to live. It’s not the nicest, happiest place in the world. If you think that more people with guns would change that, then I can respect your opinion. I just severely disagree and think that more people carrying concealed weapons would make Jersey’s already high crime rate even worse, but amongst people who would not normally do it- it wouldn’t make Camden a more deadly place, but I think it would make the suburbs worse… more vigilante wannabe’s drawing their guns. You being a cop, you have training in how to use a gun and when to fire it. I’d imagine that you’re more aware of the repercussions of pulling that trigger than most- and yet sometimes even cops make bad decisions. So I trust normal people even less to make the right one.

Going all the way home to get a gun at least gives someone time to think about what they’re doing- pulling it off their hip in a mall or something gives them a split second to decide whether or not to take someone’s life… and that’s hard for me to accept that they can take my life in their hands just because they feel they should. I hope the guy isn’t a shitty marksman.

Like I said, it’s not in our culture here. In Texas, Oklahoma, they’re used to it, came up with it. We didn’t here. I don’t see a reason to change that.

And… not to be a complete dick, but man, if you hate Jersey so much, there’s Route 80. Take it on out. There’s about a million guys on line waiting to be cops so they can have your big ass pension. [/quote]

Why didnt you just put it that way in the first place?

I completely and totally disagree with you, and the cultural argument falls short for a lot of reasons I think, but it is at least a better formed opinion than the “small cock and can’t fight with your hands” crap that is occasionally thrown at men who don’t want to give up an almost sacred right to defend themselves and others.

However, I do understand the indoctrination that goes on up here having been a product of New Jersey schools all the way through college.

Google the article “A Nation of Cowards” when you get a chance.
It is interesting reading on another point of view.

I have no plans to leave my profession because thousands of guys would like my pension. The pension is certainly an issue, but so are family and community ties. By the time I am ready to retire, my situation will be different and I will leave this bastion of communism on the first train out.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

Going all the way home to get a gun at least gives someone time to think about what they’re doing- pulling it off their hip in a mall or something gives them a split second to decide whether or not to take someone’s life… and that’s hard for me to accept that they can take my life in their hands just because they feel they should. I hope the guy isn’t a shitty marksman.

[/quote]

Personally, I wouldn’t want to live in any state where I magically lose the ability to defend myself and my family when I walk out my front door, where I’m arguably MORE vulnerable, and yet no more likely to be saved by the police.

With regard to your horrifying mall scenario, I would actually feel safer knowing that the psycho with the sawed off SKS would face a dozen pissed off Christmas shoppers toting .45’s if he tried to shoot up my mall. Maybe there would only have been two people killed (his first victim and himself) instead of 8 or 9.

As to your attitude about “hillbillies” with “small penises” who “can’t fight”, all I can say is that I wish you well.

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
Our government wouldn’t round us all up. Therefore, we don’t need guns. We’re in a time of war people, do you want terrorists having guns? Shessh.

(Same argument used to defend the Patriot Acts suspension of Habeas Corpus)[/quote]

There was no suspension of habeus corpus w/r/t U.S. citizens.