A-Hole Forum...

[quote]vin_mancini wrote:
Hi guys,

I wanted to offer some feedback from the ‘other’ side. I, admittedly, am a complete and total noob on this subject but am very eager to learn. I feel that my experience in training is up there, nutrition is growing every day, but never had a need to know about this kind of thing until I made the decision to do so this week.

Clearly, there is PLENTY to learn on this forum if you just read up a bit and I definitely did read quite a bit (as well as on other forums). The problem is that, no matter how much you read, a few of us will have that one specific requirement or question that doesn’t seem to be found in the forums. I’m a computer consultant and defintely very adept at finding what I need using Google.

In my particular case I was looking for a completely oral stack. Obviously, most of the stacks discussed in these forums are injects only so that leaves only a few decent threads to read. Plus, each time one person says something is good another jumps in to say that it’s shit. I basically read many threads in several different forums and decided to join this one as I found it to be one of the more knowledgeable ones.

So, when I did have a question I created a thread about it hoping to see many different perspectives from people who know what they’re talking about to ultimately be able to make an educated and wise decision.

I admit, there are plenty of noobs here who haven’t done an ounce of reading and just want the answer handed to them on a silver platter. Others who simply post, “Where can I buy steroids?” But, there are others, like me, who have a faint understanding of the etiquette here, ask reasonably intelligent questions, have an eagerness to learn and grow by obtaining feedback from other’s responses. You all started somewhere.

I agree some of the noobs’ threads make you want to drive over to their place and slap them but it’s the guys like me who will learn and grow and eventually become (hopefully) a contributing member of the forum.

Point is, cut some of us a break and it just might benefit you in the long run.

Just my 2 cents[/quote]

When you do things the right way, like you did here, I for one will always respond in kind. I do try to seek out the un- and under- educated. Those who really want and need answers I try my best to give them those answers. I can absolutely respond to a sincere request in a thread where two members are going at each other. Stick to the issues and most people are fine. Its business, not personal.

For me, it’s alot like what Jazz said. I read up on SO MANY forums before coming here. The only reason I had to post was because one thread says one thing, the other says another thing. Anadrol/Winstrol stacks SUCK according to one site. Here, they’re accepted. You can’t do all orals! You’re nuts! Here, you can apparantly. No matter what I would read and made a decision about there was always another thread that told me I was full of shit.

So, after reading through the forums, I found that the guys here seemed pretty educated, though bushy still needs some work though :oP JK So, I posted here to get feedback from what I thought would be the best of the business and I STILL had conflicting ideas. Lots of people said Anadrol/Winnie is fine, but bushy jumps in saying you MUST take Anavar or Primo with that. So, what am I to do? It’s not like a computer problem where there is ONE solution: 1) Modify this key in the windows registry and 2) Reboot. In here, EVERYONE has their own opinions. But which opinions are more based on fact and less on opinion? Who the hell knows? Then it just gets to the point where you try to make a decision about something, and educated one mind you, take the plunge and hope for the best.

For someone like me who is a wizard at finding the answers to my questions online, this subject is totally different. It’s one of the only times in recent history where I had to actually join a forum and post my questions. But, if some of the noobs are truly pure idiots making it evident during their very first post, why not just ban them immediately and be done with it? ;o)

[quote]vin_mancini wrote:
For me, it’s alot like what Jazz said. I read up on SO MANY forums before coming here. The only reason I had to post was because one thread says one thing, the other says another thing. Anadrol/Winstrol stacks SUCK according to one site. Here, they’re accepted. You can’t do all orals! You’re nuts! Here, you can apparantly. No matter what I would read and made a decision about there was always another thread that told me I was full of shit.

So, after reading through the forums, I found that the guys here seemed pretty educated, though bushy still needs some work though :oP JK So, I posted here to get feedback from what I thought would be the best of the business and I STILL had conflicting ideas. Lots of people said Anadrol/Winnie is fine, but bushy jumps in saying you MUST take Anavar or Primo with that. So, what am I to do? It’s not like a computer problem where there is ONE solution: 1) Modify this key in the windows registry and 2) Reboot. In here, EVERYONE has their own opinions. But which opinions are more based on fact and less on opinion? Who the hell knows? Then it just gets to the point where you try to make a decision about something, and educated one mind you, take the plunge and hope for the best.

For someone like me who is a wizard at finding the answers to my questions online, this subject is totally different. It’s one of the only times in recent history where I had to actually join a forum and post my questions. But, if some of the noobs are truly pure idiots making it evident during their very first post, why not just ban them immediately and be done with it? ;o)[/quote]

It seems with AAS, it’s difficult for anyone to say that some things are fact. What works for me may not work for you. What I experience on a particular drug may be the same, similar, or totally different than you. Look at the thread started on EQ, and whether it caused anxiety. I pitched in my two cents, which was the same as most posters, in that it doesn’t, or at least that was my initial experience. But only after about six weeks, I’ve drastically reduced dosages, and am now stopping the EQ, because I have been experiencing unexplained anxiety. And you’ll still have those who believe it’s a myth. In most cases, all you can do is take everyone’s experiences, good or bad, and realize when you take these drugs, you are probably going to fall somewhere in the spectrum. At least you’re armed with the knowledge of all the possibilities.

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
OK, I see where you are coming from now.

What you ahve to realise is that there are different levels of understanding when it comes to a physiological drug and its effects on the body.

Personally I always try to ground myself in science, and then top that off with personal experience.

Science (‘book learning’) is all well and good, but experience tops it (just, lol). However, experience alone isn’t that great, because a lot of the time, people are running multiple drugs (not just steroids but fat burners, etc) that ‘taint’ the purity of their experience.

Also, the placebo effect or whatever can strongly influence a users perception.

And do not forget that any amount of experience of only one thing, OR multiple experiences of many things, all different, doesn’t give someone the kind of breadth AND depth of experience that makes them terribly valid.

So, whilst one person might say one thing and another seems to contradict that slightly, you should consider the level of experience AND knowledge of the posters involved.

So, in the case you mention, about anadrol/winstrol/anavar, well Tonebone has a lot of experience with oral steroids, but I believe his first experience was anadrol + winstrol but no class I oral. So because it was his first cycle, he was impressed with the results and said so when asked to comment.

However, he and I had already discussed in detail, the science behind the very valid concept that if you add in a class I oral to an otherwise class II containing cycle, you should expect mush more ‘quality’ results.

NOw I consider ToneBone to have more ‘pure’ experience than me when it comes to oral, because I only ever ran them with injectables.

So I respect TBs input on oral cycles, and if he says something works, I will not disbelieve him. However, the science clearly indicates that because a Class II steroid does NOT activate the androgen receptor, it will not cause an increase in protein transcription by the nucleus, there will not be new protein laid down and hence there will be little in the way of permanent gains.

Now, I could have typed this in another thread, but you can see how boring it becomes typing the same long answers again and again and again.

And then, you should consider that the info is already here in this very forum, if people would just LOOK AROUND, instead of just saying “I done some research, now let me ask obvious questions”.

These days, it seems as though ‘research’ involves little more than reading a few steroid profiles.

I appreciate that not everyone has a science background or the time to study physiology, BUT as I already said, the answers to 95% of all newbie questions are ALREADY HERE.

When a vet answers what (to him) is an obvious question, he tends to type the short version, because the long version has been done to death by him already and plus, he’s got a life to lead, and a repetitive strain injury developing in his left forearm from typing so he needs to keep it short :wink:

UInderstandably, the newbie wants more than just the short answer, but the vet isn’t inclined to supply it, because it has already been supplied, many times over in the past.

This, for me, is the source of my frustration. Most newbies come on and expect that everyone will be happy to answer all their mundane, repetitive questions, over and over. BUT, as I have said, THE ANSWERS ARE ALREADY HERE. Just use the search engine. Then come at us, asking for clarification on some of the finer points of the discussion, if you need to.

Bushy[/quote]

          Well put sir.

One minor technicality to correct though. Actually the drol/win was if you remember now, approx my third oral go I believe. I had done the Tbol solo, and then ran a tbol/primo/winstrol which was a beauty I must say. Then I did the drol/win. So actually I did have some prior exp with a classI/II albeit was somewhat shorter with the primo than the others during the cycle. I think I got on about two weeks with all three, then dropped the primo and finished with just the two tbol/winstrol. That was when our feline friend was still around, thus the availability of quality reasonably priced primo.

             Very good answer by Bushy, all the right points are covered there. These guys are so assaulted by querries over and over it really is a wonder they hang around like him and continue to help all the noobs as well as trained noobs like myself and other vets as well.

      They're a valuable asset worth their weight in gold, and we have to respect them and their time by trying to frame the question in a short and direct direction.

                  ToneBone

It seems with AAS, it’s difficult for anyone to say that some things are fact. What works for me may not work for you. What I experience on a particular drug may be the same, similar, or totally different than you. Look at the thread started on EQ, and whether it caused anxiety. I pitched in my two cents, which was the same as most posters, in that it doesn’t, or at least that was my initial experience. But only after about six weeks, I’ve drastically reduced dosages, and am now stopping the EQ, because I have been experiencing unexplained anxiety. And you’ll still have those who believe it’s a myth. In most cases, all you can do is take everyone’s experiences, good or bad, and realize when you take these drugs, you are probably going to fall somewhere in the spectrum. At least you’re armed with the knowledge of all the possibilities.[/quote]

Great example. Another thing that can account for some anectdotal inconsistency is the fact that a lot of us are using UGL gear. Now we’ve all read the reports that claim these products are often underdosed or even mislabeled, so when someone says 500mg of EQ had such and such a result, we can’t be sure that 500mg of EQ is really what they’re commenting on.

Not a comfortable fact to swallow.

Bushy, i certainly understand your point. Its totally understandable to be frustrated at a 16 y/o posting a fisrt cycle like 1000mg Test/week along with anadrol, Dbol, and EQ at high dosages for 20 weeks and thinks he doesnt need PCT.

But like vin said, there are many other forums who totally contradict what seems to be common sense here. The Test Stasis/Taper comes to mind. There are those that say this method is dumb and others who swear by it. There are those that say that SERMs/AIs should be run throughout the newbie cycle and those who say its not needed. There are those that say HCG is needed and others who say its a waste of money. These are just a few of the many contradictions.

As far as this forum alone goes, well lets take the newbie threads for example, particularly FGs newbie thread. He suggests for a newbie cycle to run Test with Dbol week 1-4 and to run Adex throughout the cycle. He also suggests Provirion somewhere towards the end of the cycle. Seems reasonable, sensible, and plauseable to the newbie who’s first recommendation is to read the newbie threads.

Well, let him post up a cyclce based off this information, he will be told to “use test only”, “drop the Dbol” “No need to use an AI or SERM till its needed”. In other cases he might be told to wait till week 4 to run the Dbol.

Now I agree with arthursaxon in saying that its hard to label some things as fact. So the question is, why are these types of things being made into fact, either by implication or by being blatently called facts? Other ways that they are made into facts is by debunking the noobs wo suggest such things or the infamous “flaming”.

So the point is, even if a noob reads through most of the threads here and gains some general knowlege, he is most likely left with very important lingering questions that need to be answered simply because the contradiction. Ive always been taught that a little knowlege is a dangerous thing. This is certainly what results in a noob reading through the threads here!

I dont belive that any newbie (or at least most) intentionally wants to disresepct anyone, especially the “vets” who have more knowlege than them. They simply want questions answered because of their limited knowlege.

And in our society, AAS are portrayed to be a miracle drug among the uneducated. So noobs already come with a misunderstanding and it just seems that it is perpetuated!

Jazz

I think we getting a bit confused here. From the sounds of it, the newer people seem to think that things are either relative or they are fact. “I read it here and it said X but then I read it there and it said Y”.

Well, stop doing that and confusing yourself. If you find someone is recommending something, ask yourself one simple question, WHY?. If someone is recommending the complete opposite, ask yourself one simple question, WHY?

Why is 500mg/week suggested over 200/mg? Why shouldn’t a 120lb 6ft2 17 year old start a 15 week Dbol cycle? Why should I be eating like that? And so on…

If you ask yourself this question, especially when someone says something against the grain, you can decide for yourself whether the reasoning is flawed or why it makes sense.

Jazz brought up the Test Taper which is a good example of what I am saying. Why Taper? Why not? If you look into the science and the reasoning behind an idea, you can make up your own mind about it’s usefullness. When the heated HCG thread came up, I asked myself Why?, looked for answers, and came up with some good evidence against it. I realize, especially as the perpetual beginner here, that there is an overload of information but you can filter it by simply asking Why?.

I disagree with Jazz about no intentional disrespect. Hell, I responded to a post with what I thought was gentle easy advice to save the person some harcore flaming but he came back, call me an asshole and then bragged about how much he knew and how I should show him some respect. I was baffled and didn’t even bother to respond though others did.

One final thought, once you have asked Why X? on the board, and you should have asked yourself first, and someone goes to the trouble of explaining to you in detail Why Not X, do not be the person who then ignores and complains and insults the very people you have asked. If you have a compelling counter-point, share it but don’t just ignore the very reasoning for which you asked.

Agreed.

You can read every damn word on the internet, but when it comes down to it you’ll have to use some critical thinking and make your own decisions.

There are some things you can only learn from your OWN experience.

Do the proper research, consider the anecdotal information, and make the best decision you can.

Every cycle you run will be a bit of an experiment, and every drug you put in your body poses some level of risk. If you can’t live with that you should take up scrapbooking and leave the gear alone.

Well MrZsasz, you certainly bring up a good point about asking the question why. However, i dont think that it would solve much in terms of what we are talking about here.

Ex. If a newbie asked himself why he should take 500mg/week over 250/week, the only think common sense would tell him is 500mg is more that 250mg so I can get more from 500 than from 250mg. Or adversly, 250mg may be safer than 500mg. Well by this rationalle, 2000mg would yeild more than 1000mg, or 1000mg may be safer than 2000mg.

As a noob, how would he know the difference unless he asks? Futhermore, this question of why is what gets most noobs flamed in the first place! He asks why 500mg over 300mg and gets flamed or told to search through the threads for this answer which leaves him back at the point I talked about earlier!

Prime example, I started a thread a while ago about the possibility taking Primo Depot instead of taking Test as a first cycle. Now in my reasearch, I read that Primo was considered one of the safest compounds. Even Danny D suggeted this in the USH 2. So with safety in mind, I asked “WHY” isnt a compound like this recommended to a newbie instead of test for a first cycle. I got everything but an answer and was futhermore ridiculed in other threads because of it!

And you bring up looking into science and reasoning. Well the “science” and reasoning behind the Test Stasis/Taper seems to be very legit. But so does the “science” and reasoning behind the traditional method of PCT. Both seem to have worked for some. The arguement comes in when one has worked better for an individual than the other did. This could have been for a number of reasons!

And check this out, on the front page of t-Nation is Cy’s Juicer’s SAT. One of the questions basically asks about a taper being legit or not. In the answer portion, he says no. Now if im remembering correctly, P22 said in one of his threads about the taper that he consulted with Cy on this method before suggesting it. Now this is not to impune either of these guys because i belive they are very knowlegable and one can learn alot from them. However, this is the type of contradictions im speaking of.

And think of the more subtle contradictions being made. People who have been using AAS for years with great bodies, great health, great results from use, are telling people that they shouldnt use AAS! Now I know there are many reasons for this and that everyone has some regrets, but come on, really!!! At the end of the day, it would be very hard to convince a newbie that he shouldnt use with this type of evidence being constantly outlined!

Again, I think a checklist should be made for recommendations that pertains only to the common sense aspect of AAS use. In fact, I may start a thread about this myself.

Top of the list should be safety recommendations. This should include the safest compounds, dosages, cycle length, and stacks to use for the listed goals.

Next should be Goal recommendations. This should include Fat loss, Muscle gain, simple euphoric aspects, or whatever the individual is looking to gain from AAS use.

Also, the most common ways people use AAS to attiain the goals listed should be stated. Any uncommon side effects experienced by users should also be listed. Ex. The test-flu seems to be something to look into.

Diet recommendations should also be on the list. This should include specific calorie amounts, Protein-Fat-Carb ratios, number of meals, and types of foods. It should also contain any suppliment recommendations.

Anyway, this is just my opinion!

Jazz

[quote]Jazz_Man1898 wrote:
Well MrZsasz, you certainly bring up a good point about asking the question why. However, i dont think that it would solve much in terms of what we are talking about here.

Ex. If a newbie asked himself why he should take 500mg/week over 250/week, the only think common sense would tell him is 500mg is more that 250mg so I can get more from 500 than from 250mg. Or adversly, 250mg may be safer than 500mg. Well by this rationalle, 2000mg would yeild more than 1000mg, or 1000mg may be safer than 2000mg.

As a noob, how would he know the difference unless he asks? Futhermore, this question of why is what gets most noobs flamed in the first place! He asks why 500mg over 300mg and gets flamed or told to search through the threads for this answer which leaves him back at the point I talked about earlier!

Prime example, I started a thread a while ago about the possibility taking Primo Depot instead of taking Test as a first cycle. Now in my reasearch, I read that Primo was considered one of the safest compounds. Even Danny D suggeted this in the USH 2. So with safety in mind, I asked “WHY” isnt a compound like this recommended to a newbie instead of test for a first cycle. I got everything but an answer and was futhermore ridiculed in other threads because of it!

And you bring up looking into science and reasoning. Well the “science” and reasoning behind the Test Stasis/Taper seems to be very legit. But so does the “science” and reasoning behind the traditional method of PCT. Both seem to have worked for some. The arguement comes in when one has worked better for an individual than the other did. This could have been for a number of reasons!

And check this out, on the front page of T-Nation is Cy’s Juicer’s SAT. One of the questions basically asks about a taper being legit or not. In the answer portion, he says no. Now if im remembering correctly, P22 said in one of his threads about the taper that he consulted with Cy on this method before suggesting it. Now this is not to impune either of these guys because i belive they are very knowlegable and one can learn alot from them. However, this is the type of contradictions im speaking of.

And think of the more subtle contradictions being made. People who have been using AAS for years with great bodies, great health, great results from use, are telling people that they shouldnt use AAS! Now I know there are many reasons for this and that everyone has some regrets, but come on, really!!! At the end of the day, it would be very hard to convince a newbie that he shouldnt use with this type of evidence being constantly outlined!

Again, I think a checklist should be made for recommendations that pertains only to the common sense aspect of AAS use. In fact, I may start a thread about this myself.

Top of the list should be safety recommendations. This should include the safest compounds, dosages, cycle length, and stacks to use for the listed goals.

Next should be Goal recommendations. This should include Fat loss, Muscle gain, simple euphoric aspects, or whatever the individual is looking to gain from AAS use.

Also, the most common ways people use AAS to attiain the goals listed should be stated. Any uncommon side effects experienced by users should also be listed. Ex. The test-flu seems to be something to look into.

Diet recommendations should also be on the list. This should include specific calorie amounts, Protein-Fat-Carb ratios, number of meals, and types of foods. It should also contain any suppliment recommendations.

Anyway, this is just my opinion!

Jazz[/quote]

Did you think my post was directed at you alone? It wasn’t intended that way but you certainly are someone who seems to go nuts over things.

To use your example and not take it to the extreme, the newbie who asks why 500mg is better than 250mg should maybe not just think that it is better because it’s more. That is the error. He should instead, look at it as better due to past results and even clinical studies showing results and side effects. From there, if he thought “Well, 2000mg must be better”, he should look at why it is better and see the results versus the sides. And from that, look at his own situation and adapt the findings to his own needs.

People can have an opinion, and they can sure change their opinion based on new evidence or a better line of reasoning. Perhaps that is the reason for some of the contradictory information you find. Have you looked at the time frame between the contradictions? Or even how experiences have changed someone’s thoughts on the subject. Maybe you didn’t get the answers you were looking for in your Primo thread, and I haven’t read it, but perhaps you didn’t present your choice well. Saying something is “safe” isn’t good enough.

And you know what, I bet a lot of people didn’t take the time to answer you with the effort you hoped. I’m not laying all the blame on any one side. I’m saying there is room for improvement all around but it’s we beginners who have the most to lose but turning off the veteran information.

Your idea for a thread with a checklist with common sense advice is basically what FuriousGeorges stickied thread is all about. I haven’t contributed to it other than to try to ask general questions that I think would apply to most people. Some of yours are a little too specific to each person’s goals(ie diet, TRT dosing, etc). I think a lot of the logs supplement the info you mention by showing people potential gains and sides that people can encounter.

I am thinking of Cortes thread where he didn’t run an AI and Tone’s thread where he got gyno almost overnight. Both of these showing how the application of the knowledge you, I, and other beginners can be affected by different approaches. It’s up to us to literally experiment, to a degree, to see what works for us.

[quote]MrZsasz wrote:
Jazz_Man1898 wrote:
Well MrZsasz, you certainly bring up a good point about asking the question why. However, i dont think that it would solve much in terms of what we are talking about here.

Ex. If a newbie asked himself why he should take 500mg/week over 250/week, the only think common sense would tell him is 500mg is more that 250mg so I can get more from 500 than from 250mg. Or adversly, 250mg may be safer than 500mg. Well by this rationalle, 2000mg would yeild more than 1000mg, or 1000mg may be safer than 2000mg.

As a noob, how would he know the difference unless he asks? Futhermore, this question of why is what gets most noobs flamed in the first place! He asks why 500mg over 300mg and gets flamed or told to search through the threads for this answer which leaves him back at the point I talked about earlier!

Prime example, I started a thread a while ago about the possibility taking Primo Depot instead of taking Test as a first cycle. Now in my reasearch, I read that Primo was considered one of the safest compounds. Even Danny D suggeted this in the USH 2. So with safety in mind, I asked “WHY” isnt a compound like this recommended to a newbie instead of test for a first cycle. I got everything but an answer and was futhermore ridiculed in other threads because of it!

And you bring up looking into science and reasoning. Well the “science” and reasoning behind the Test Stasis/Taper seems to be very legit. But so does the “science” and reasoning behind the traditional method of PCT. Both seem to have worked for some. The arguement comes in when one has worked better for an individual than the other did. This could have been for a number of reasons!

And check this out, on the front page of T-Nation is Cy’s Juicer’s SAT. One of the questions basically asks about a taper being legit or not. In the answer portion, he says no. Now if im remembering correctly, P22 said in one of his threads about the taper that he consulted with Cy on this method before suggesting it. Now this is not to impune either of these guys because i belive they are very knowlegable and one can learn alot from them. However, this is the type of contradictions im speaking of.

And think of the more subtle contradictions being made. People who have been using AAS for years with great bodies, great health, great results from use, are telling people that they shouldnt use AAS! Now I know there are many reasons for this and that everyone has some regrets, but come on, really!!! At the end of the day, it would be very hard to convince a newbie that he shouldnt use with this type of evidence being constantly outlined!

Again, I think a checklist should be made for recommendations that pertains only to the common sense aspect of AAS use. In fact, I may start a thread about this myself.

Top of the list should be safety recommendations. This should include the safest compounds, dosages, cycle length, and stacks to use for the listed goals.

Next should be Goal recommendations. This should include Fat loss, Muscle gain, simple euphoric aspects, or whatever the individual is looking to gain from AAS use.

Also, the most common ways people use AAS to attiain the goals listed should be stated. Any uncommon side effects experienced by users should also be listed. Ex. The test-flu seems to be something to look into.

Diet recommendations should also be on the list. This should include specific calorie amounts, Protein-Fat-Carb ratios, number of meals, and types of foods. It should also contain any suppliment recommendations.

Anyway, this is just my opinion!

Jazz

Did you think my post was directed at you alone? It wasn’t intended that way but you certainly are someone who seems to go nuts over things.

To use your example and not take it to the extreme, the newbie who asks why 500mg is better than 250mg should maybe not just think that it is better because it’s more. That is the error. He should instead, look at it as better due to past results and even clinical studies showing results and side effects. From there, if he thought “Well, 2000mg must be better”, he should look at why it is better and see the results versus the sides. And from that, look at his own situation and adapt the findings to his own needs.

People can have an opinion, and they can sure change their opinion based on new evidence or a better line of reasoning. Perhaps that is the reason for some of the contradictory information you find. Have you looked at the time frame between the contradictions? Or even how experiences have changed someone’s thoughts on the subject. Maybe you didn’t get the answers you were looking for in your Primo thread, and I haven’t read it, but perhaps you didn’t present your choice well. Saying something is “safe” isn’t good enough.

And you know what, I bet a lot of people didn’t take the time to answer you with the effort you hoped. I’m not laying all the blame on any one side. I’m saying there is room for improvement all around but it’s we beginners who have the most to lose but turning off the veteran information.

Your idea for a thread with a checklist with common sense advice is basically what FuriousGeorges stickied thread is all about. I haven’t contributed to it other than to try to ask general questions that I think would apply to most people. Some of yours are a little too specific to each person’s goals(ie diet, TRT dosing, etc). I think a lot of the logs supplement the info you mention by showing people potential gains and sides that people can encounter.

I am thinking of Cortes thread where he didn’t run an AI and Tone’s thread where he got gyno almost overnight. Both of these showing how the application of the knowledge you, I, and other beginners can be affected by different approaches. It’s up to us to literally experiment, to a degree, to see what works for us. [/quote]

          Jesus, just listen to what ZZ is saying. I'm so tired of people using this forum to write out these long drawn out response posts instead of just listening and saying either ok, or nah...The analyzing of these basic points is a bit overkill no?



      Wow, we had a great crowd here not just a few months back and now there are so many redundant and similar threads, with new posters who are noobs, ie? "thewannabe" giving advice to other noobs by repeating what an experienced poster said previous, to seem like they're "in the know".

We’re lucky Sapoisin came back and is helping people out too with his experience. I can only be glad he got back after this cloggage had already been going on for a while or he might not want to be back ya know?

      Anyway, I just wish we could get everyone to simply ask questions after using the search button for a while, and make them more direct and to the point. Then just take the difft advices, thank the posters for their opinions, (even the ones you don't agree with), and make your own fucking decisions. It's that simple. Use your own judgement after the research and reading of everyones post, as a final evaluation and decision making process. 

[quote]Jazz_Man1898 wrote:
As far as this forum alone goes, well lets take the newbie threads for example, particularly FGs newbie thread. He suggests for a newbie cycle to run Test with Dbol week 1-4 and to run Adex throughout the cycle. He also suggests Provirion somewhere towards the end of the cycle. Seems reasonable, sensible, and plauseable to the newbie who’s first recommendation is to read the newbie threads.

Well, let him post up a cyclce based off this information, he will be told to “use test only”, “drop the Dbol” “No need to use an AI or SERM till its needed”. In other cases he might be told to wait till week 4 to run the Dbol.

Now I agree with arthursaxon in saying that its hard to label some things as fact. So the question is, why are these types of things being made into fact, either by implication or by being blatently called facts? Other ways that they are made into facts is by debunking the noobs wo suggest such things or the infamous “flaming”.

So the point is, even if a noob reads through most of the threads here and gains some general knowlege, he is most likely left with very important lingering questions that need to be answered simply because the contradiction. Ive always been taught that a little knowlege is a dangerous thing. This is certainly what results in a noob reading through the threads here!
Jazz[/quote]

This has probably already been addressed as I have not read to the bottom of this thread yet, but I was a noob here a little while back, and I have to say that I did not find all of this stuff that bewildering. I was told exactly the things you are talking about here: dbol for a kickstart, NO DBOL! TEST ONLY, AI only if needed, AI NO MATTER WHAT, and on and on.

Still, you can still boil down most of the noise to a few general principles if you read with a critical mind and read enough. I think you can figure out that if a bunch of experienced vets are debating fine points, then you can just pick one and see how it works for you (while of course, in the case of an AI, for example, buying insurance).

What you DON’T see here is, “Yeah, bro, Deca at 600mgs a week for 12 weeks. Throw some dbol in there at about 90mgsED for the same time period. Your(sic) GTG.” I’m not even exaggerating with that last post. This is serious advice that I have heard in the last few days. Now even a casual reader of this site should be able to figure out that this is a far, far cry from the protocols that get debated upon here. I think some of you guys just write these things to hear yourself talk, so to speak. Because, after you have done the proper research, this is just not that complicated.

Do all of your decisions in life require so much vacillation? I certainly hope not, because you are never going to get anywhere if so.

[quote]InTheZone wrote:

          Jesus, just listen to what ZZ is saying. I'm so tired of people using this forum to write out these long drawn out response posts instead of just listening and saying either ok, or nah...The analyzing of these basic points is a bit overkill no?

[/quote]

AMEN!

Jazz, you’re like a broken record, man! I’m gonna say again that I think you just like the sound of your own voice, because your “question,” whatever the hell it is, has been answered. And there is a reason so many of the posters here get frustrated with you. You don’t listen to the answers you receive, you just look for counterpoints to pick apart and soliloquize on.

I’ll say it one more time: This shit is NOT THAT COMPLICATED. How come so many of us were able to figure it out without sounding like Hamlet in the process?

Look, i dont mean to belaber any point and im certainly not trying to sound like Hamlet! And its not at all true that I dont listen to answers I receive, It just seems that if I ask a question there is already a preconceived thought that I dont know what Im talkin about and I should just listen to the advice already given in the newbie threads!

So with that alone, no one goes into any detail whatsoever to answer a question and they just say in a nutshell “stop asking questions about cycles, Test cycle only for a first and just do it because we said so”

So you’re are right, Its really no biggie but since we were on the subject, I thought Id voice my opinion.

[quote]Jazz_Man1898 wrote:
Look, i dont mean to belaber any point and im certainly not trying to sound like Hamlet! And its not at all true that I dont listen to answers I receive, It just seems that if I ask a question there is already a preconceived thought that I dont know what Im talkin about and I should just listen to the advice already given in the newbie threads!

So with that alone, no one goes into any detail whatsoever to answer a question and they just say in a nutshell “stop asking questions about cycles, Test cycle only for a first and just do it because we said so”

So you’re are right, Its really no biggie but since we were on the subject, I thought Id voice my opinion.[/quote]

  No offense, but your lengthy answers could be your own worst enemy as far as influencing peoples opinions about your "noobness" for lack of a better word, lol.

Really though, just try putting down a question in as short and direct a fashion as possible. I think you’ll find you get more and friendlier responses that way.

     good luck on the cycle by the way,

                  ToneBone

[quote]InTheZone wrote:

  No offense, but your lengthy answers could be your own worst enemy as far as influencing peoples opinions about your "noobness" for lack of a better word, lol.[/quote]

True, your posts have too many big words (not yours ITZ). I stop reading right away. And they are too long.

no prob!