A good one. wat to do when diet/cutting stalls.

I generally follow a process that isn’t too scientific, but works for me:

Before I do any tweaking of the diet, I consider my activity levels. I can easily lose excess BF and maintain/gain LBM by adding a HIIT session or increasing the amount of time of current HIIT sessions. THEN if it doesn’t look like that’s working, I then consider diet. I cut out or cut down on certain food that I believe are problematic to my goals.

But I never, ever cut down significantly on my caloric intake. Uh uh. Usually all I need to do is eliminate breads (replace those calories with adding more potatos); and of course beer, the cookie a day and candy. Once those items are gone, it’s fatloss city, babee.

Anyways, GS: how long have you been sitting at 8.25% BF? If it hasn’t been too long, it may be a good thing to let your body develop a “set point” at this level. (Which I should ask now: that’s pretty low now, how low do you want to do?)

Thank you all

the input is welcomed and processed

Here is the thing, I started 11.5% BF 23 days ago. after 17 days I was -10 lb fat, + 2lb muscle.
last 6 days - nada, I think I even lost a little lbm.(about a lb) thats why I stopped with meltdown a week earlier then I planned and started lifting heavy, I was fealing like I was losing strength this last week as well.

I dont want to be impatient but the great results and then the platue, realy got me wondering, without any stress :-), about the general (and individual) issue of getting stuck in your diet.

Patricia:
eliminating stuff (in case you where not kidding) I don’t have much to eliminate as I eat none of what you mentioned - only foods from “lean eatin’” by JB.
whats my goal? I planned to get to 5% in 8 weeks.
And still do. I’m allready half way in less then half the time.
my set point was about 10-11 percent in the last couple of years.

About refeeds:
I planned to start them at a much lower BF, I don’t have any cravings yet, I do feel sluggish sometimes but thats the low-moderate carb diet I’m on I think.
thanks

S-man.

G-S,

You detailed post sheds a lot of light on your situation.

First, you’ve lost a LOT of fat very quickly because of novel stimuli (HotRox, lower cals, and Meltdown). If it was this easy to shed fat quickly, everyone would be 4-5% BF in no time. Once you dip below 8-9%, it gets much tougher; you should be satisfied with .75-1 lb. per week at that point (depending on your total weight). As such, there is a good chance that you’re not stuck, but just “normalizing.”

Second, I DO think that you’re overreaching. I don’t say overtraining, as I feel that it’s acute because you’ve only been cutting for ~3 weeks. 5x5 and HIIT are both very taxing on the CNS, and steady-state aerobics in your situation won’t do much besides drive up cortisol levels. This is the kind of volume that you could probably get away with while on an androgen, yet you’re doing it naturally! I’d recommend dropping the steady-state work and switching to 4 5x5 sessions and 2-3 HIIT sessions per week.

I think that your carb intake now (during/after and 1-1.5 hours after) is good. If things don’t pick up, you can try dropping the second one.

Eric, are you saying it was bound to happen?

what is the physiological explenation for this (mythical) line at 8%? beside leptin?
and if it is leptin then I need to start refeeding?

And should one who intends to go under that line, prepare a two-part strategy?
something like:
“go low carb till you stop dropping fat, then start refeeding”

why something that is working at 10% wont work at 8%?

I know, if it was easy everyone will do it, but I am training very hard, eating very good and everything. I don’t consider my effort “average”. I’ve been under 7% and dieted before.

here is something else Ive been doing:
every week of the diet I’ve UPPED my calories (that was planned) because of JB’s recommendations (see the apetite for construction with the “don’t diet” question - the question under that)
JB says the the “fatter” you are, the bigger the caloric deficit can be.

I’d realy like to know more about what you are telling me here.

G-S,

Here’s a quote about leptin from Elzi Volk; she has worked with both Lyle MacDonald and Mauro DiPasquale:

"This hormone is the long-term circuit braker for energy balance; other hormones and neuroendocrine factors serve as short-term regulators, while some serve as both. Baseline leptin levels depend primarily on fat cell mass, since it is synthesized and secreted by the fat cells. People who are obese have relatively high plasma concentrations of leptin. However, that doesn’t mean that all this leptin is active where it needs to be the most: the hypothalamus (HT) in the brain. Leptin also has direct effects on the cells surrounding the fat cells (called autocrine/paracrine functions) too, and may be important in other body systems, such as the immune and reproduction systems. Consequently, very low leptin levels may interrupt normal functioning of these and other systems.

There are two barriers through which leptin must be actively transported to reach the HT. Those transport systems limit how much leptin from the blood reaches the HT and ultimately influences leptin’s central activity. When blood levels of leptin are high, such as in obesity, these transport systems are saturated, and less leptin reaches the brain. This is one reason for what’s called central leptin resistance. Adequate supplementation with antioxidants, such as zinc and vitamin E, may enhance transport across the blood-brain barrier. As well, obese people may benefit from increasing their intake of omega-3 essential fatty acids. Increased dosages have been demonstrated to reduce leptin levels and increase loss of body fat mass in both rodent and human subjects.

In lean individuals, the issue is not leptin resistance, but low plasma concentrations of leptin. So lean folks have to induce their body fat into synthesizing and secreting enough leptin to reach the HT. Otherwise, neuropeptide Y (NPY) and other factors will upregulate and increase the appetite. In addition, dysfunctions appear in other metabolic shifts and body systems. The metabolism slows, immune functions are suppressed, and the reproduction axes are interrupted.

While leptin levels are highly associated with body fat mass, the more important determinant is energy balance. Long-term usage of a diet that is calorically deficient will cause leptin levels to decrease. One way, and ultimately the easiest way, to prevent this is to incorporate refeed days. Depending on what the current body fat mass is, a person can integrate a day or two of higher than maintenance calories with ample carbohydrates. Insulin has a transient up-regulation effect on leptin levels. A day or two of refeeding will increase leptin levels and “reset” the metabolism. As well, assuring adequate zinc and vitamin E have been shown to increase leptin levels in humans.

The question has been asked: at what level of body fat does this switch take place? There is no single answer to that. Each individual probably has their own ‘switch’ level, depending on many factors such as age, gender, etc. A range may exist with a threshold for the average healthy population subsets, but this has not been investigated thoroughly. Plasma leptin concentrations have been presented, but not specific body fat levels. Perhaps the best method to determine when it is time to integrate reefed days is when the individual becomes chronically and extremely hungry. However, avoiding this point is optimal."

As such, G-S, I’d say that your “switch level” is 8% not only because 8% is pretty lean, but also because 8% is a major change from where you were three weeks ago. By no means am I an authority on leptin, but I’d say that it’s the culprit. Does this make sense?

I should also add that I agree with JB about adding calories-at least temporarily. Think of it as resetting your metabolism as if you were just starting a new cutting cycle. A few weeks of higher calorie intake might add a pound of fat, but don’t you think it would be worth it if that pound of fat carried with it a metabolic kickstart that would allow you to shed 4-5 pounds of blubber down the road? One step back, 4-5 forward.

Leptin, yeah, but at lower levels of bodyfat, insulin sensitivity starts to decrease.

Eric thanks alot

I realy appreciate it
this is so interesting, I mean this is the actual scientific front…

but again you gave me two choices
(with a 3rd sublimed one)
A. refeeds(there are good threads on that as I recall so I wont bother you, just want your take on workouts in refeed days)
B. Maintanance for a while (4-5 days) and then jump starting the diet again
C. another week of quite patience and checking that I’m not overtraining.

You know I allways chose option D…
“Underfeed and overtrain and it will be OK!”

what do you sugest?

also, what are “the switch” symptoms and (even better) pre-switch symptoms?

this should be a usefull answer for everybody I think.

I tend to think that you’d be best off with option C for 3-4 days, as it hasn’t been THAT long since you felt that you were still losing fat.

If that doesn’t work, I’d say up the calories for 7-10 days. If you’re really worried about adding fat, just bump up the protein a lot; you’ll be less likely to store it as fat. Also, for God’s sake, take down the training volume a bit!

Then, drop your calories again and see how things go. As you start to lean out again, watch for signs that a refeed is necessary. Check out the “Refeed HQ” thread from a while back for specifics regarding times, duration, and symptoms that indicate you need to do one.